Obama treating autos worse than Wall St

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I am just miffed it took billions of taxpayers money to come to the same conlcusion anybody with a brain knew 3 months ago. We didnt need to look at their books for 3 months and spend billions to know they had a failed business model.

Ya, you're right. that sucked

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: AndrewR
So, what are the chances that Obama is going to carry Michigan and Ohio in 2012?

If he saves those companies and millions of jobs, the odds are pretty good.

Miracles can happen.

Hope!!!!!!!!

 

[microbial]

The Auto industry has been treated with a double standard. Why not treat the finincial sector with similar punitive rejoinders. Both sectors deserve to be punished for their recklessness.

For the auto industry It started during the first round of stimulus, if you remember Republicans in congress wanted to tie a reduction in salaries to match those wage scales of non unionized japanese auto companies. An interesting idea, seeing that that would make no measurable difference at all. Only if you include management (non-unionized by-the-way) would that even make a dent.

Lowering wages to non-union scale would do nothing to reduce production cost give wage compensation makes up less than 10% of the cost of building a car. So if you payed all lay auto workers (unionized) nothing (that's zip, zero, nada)--you would still be paying above 90% of your original cost to produce a car. Not much savings there.

Compare that to the financial sector which rates their salaries are above 50% of their total revenue. Toss all financial sector employees out and you more than double your income.

And here's the big story: Autoworkers actually work and produce something.

I wrote this in another thread, but it applies here:
Why not go after AIG manager salaries? I don't understand why the Fed didn't leverage any stimulus bailout money against salaries for the corporate heads.

Forget even talking about the bonuses, these people should have been punitively docked a large portion (like all except what the lowest wage earner in their firm makes) of their pay schedule retroactively.

Punishment should have been part of the bailout. The problem is that the treasury department are all creatures of wallstreet--and they can't conceive of punishing their own kind...but there is no justification for these failed masters of the Universe to even get their base compensation.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: microbial
The Auto industry has been treated with a double standard. Why not treat the finincial sector with similar punitive rejoinders. Both sectors deserve to be punished for their recklessness.

For the auto industry It started during the first round of stimulus, if you remember Republicans in congress wanted to tie a reduction in salaries to match those wage scales of non unionized japanese auto companies. An interesting idea, seeing that that would make no measurable difference at all. Only if you include management (non-unionized by-the-way) would that even make a dent.

Lowering wages to non-union scale would do nothing to reduce production cost give wage compensation makes up less than 10% of the cost of building a car. So if you payed all lay auto workers (unionized) nothing (that's zip, zero, nada)--you would still be paying above 90% of your original cost to produce a car. Not much savings there.

Compare that to the financial sector which rates their salaries are above 50% of their total revenue. Toss all financial sector employees out and you more than double your income.

And here's the big story: Autoworkers actually work and produce something.

I wrote this in another thread, but it applies here:
Why not go after AIG manager salaries? I don't understand why the Fed didn't leverage any stimulus bailout money against salaries for the corporate heads.

Forget even talking about the bonuses, these people should have been punitively docked a large portion (like all except what the lowest wage earner in their firm makes) of their pay schedule retroactively.

Punishment should have been part of the bailout. The problem is that the treasury department are all creatures of wallstreet--and they can't conceive of punishing their own kind...but there is no justification for these failed masters of the Universe to even get their base compensation.

Is there any more relevant fact to the different treatment than the political capital established by the finance industry, with its 41% of all profits and close working with government, filling government ranks with its own people in many cases, creating a culture as described in the article linked in another thread? It's funny how people tune out those warnings, but then pay a price.

You talk about going after AIG salaries, but the key executive behind the bad policies is living in London with the $300 million he got, out of reach basically.

AIG was still paying him $1 million a month, even after he left, reportedly, until the government bailout ended it.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: coolVariable
Seems like financial scammers (that what CDSs are) get rewarded and the workers of america, as well as the financiers that back american enterprises (GM/Chrysler bondholders) get punished.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...ated-apf-14789941.html

Obviously the workers of America are overpaid and under worked while the wizards of Wall street are worth their weight in gold no matter what they do.

Are you mad yet. You should be. Bought weapons yet . You should. Are you preparing you should . If auto goes down America goes down FACT. WHY . My side will now have all the people required to end this BS.Millions of blue colars almost all with weapons . I say let them fail . Lets fight this fight and get it over with. I have even decided I will kill now . My spirtit isn't worth all the spirits that well be lost if I don't act also. Auto goes down its a chain reaction. So the only employer will be The bank of england.

 

[Thump553]

Most people don't really understand what is happening. This is a game of brinkmanship with those that would have priority in a bankruptcy (basically bondholders, unions and secured creditors) of GM and Chrysler Until Sunday, those entities that were basically refusing to renegotiate and/or dragging their feet, based upon the expectation that the government would never let this go to bankrutpcy. Now they have had a rude awakening. The chances of a viable restructuring (for GM at least) has gone way up, all for the cost of sacking one $1 per year executive and a stern lecture from the President.

Most people see the situation as black and white, continue to financially prop up the auto companies or they will completely shut down. That is not the case-rebuilt companies can and do get reorganized and come out as viable entities under Chapter 11. Look at the airline industry-that has been a regular occurence for decades now. If the public accpets government guarantees of the car company warranties that will eliminate nearly all the stigma of bankruptcy.

Personally though, I don't see Chrysler (with or without Fiat) as being any more than a bit player from here on out, even in a best case scenario.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Wreckem
The Big 3 fail, they take down all the NA suppliers that also supply the foreign auto co's in the US.

You would see a ripple effect that would lead to a couple million more unemployed relatively overnight.

#1, even if all of the big 3 fail AND all the part suppliers fail, that is just a 3% hit to the GDP. The big 3 really aren't anywhere near as big as people think. Yes, lots of people will lose jobs, but it isn't a massive hit to the economy. We really don't need the big 3. Sure, there will be pain without them and we want at least 2 to survive. But it isn't a need like banks are a need.

#2, even if all of the big 3 survive, there STILL will be many closings and foreclosures in the part suppliers. There were 20% too many part suppliers in the peak of the sales. Now there are about 50%-70% too many part suppliers. Millions in the auto industry will lose jobs even if the big 3 are saved by the government.

#3, even if all of the big 3 fail, someone will pick up the pieces and jobs will be had again. There will just be a delay and there will be lower wages. We might not get all the jobs back (see #2), but we'll get a lot of them back.

You are overblowing the case and ignoring the fact that half the problems will occur anyways whether we save them or not.

 

[NeoV]

Nemesis, you should be mad at the teachers you've had in your life.

So all of the auto-workers own weapons?

Are you one of Butterbean's other personalities, one of his more social ones?

I'll bet 10 bucks that if you say "wait, is she like a great big fat person?" - we all already know exactly what your voice sounds like.

Good lord.

Gee - why doesn't Obama have someone smart - like Fern maybe - to go over what he says? He just showed everyone his cards? I'm guessing they've had this discussion and you didn't just invent the light bulb here.

 

[Nemesis 1]

No not all auto workers have weapons, You seem to think for a reason I can't comprehend. That IF auto goes down . Everthing is OK . The railroad and auto industry are America. We let the rails decay . And now we kiiling auto . The chain reaction only brings that which comes anyway,more quicker.

Ya I had terriable teachers. They were good with teaching facts and how to gather facts and what to do with facts. But they were Priest and nuns . .The religion they taught was not in there livies . It was easy to see . Than there teaching us this way to live for true happiness. We look around us baby boomers and say What. Nobody was living in the body of Christ . NONE. So ya . I say its all a lie . Best part is They found evidance thats backs ME. Semerians tablets . IF any dispatch these as not being accurate . One needs only look to the heavens to see they are infact accurate. SO ya I hate the people who have stolen our happiness . True happiness . Ya I am bitter. I pissed we have starving children in Africa . When land the Britts stole is producing nice crops sent back to the Britts . The Britts are lucky my finger not On button . Because I would push it so fast it make your head spin. I would not feel one bit bad killing millions of people who have brought so much sorror and suffering to the World. History books don't lie completely. Unless their britsh publishers.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
No not all auto workers have weapons, You seem to think for a reason I can't comprehend. That IF auto goes down . Everthing is OK . The railroad and auto industry are America. We let the rails decay . And now we kiiling auto . The chain reaction only brings that which comes anyway,more quicker.

Ya I had terriable teachers. They were good with teaching facts and how to gather facts and what to do with facts. But they were Priest and nuns . .The religion they taught was not in there livies . It was easy to see . Than there teaching us this way to live for true happiness. We look around us baby boomers and say What. Nobody was living in the body of Christ . NONE. So ya . I say its all a lie . Best part is They found evidance thats backs ME. Semerians tablets . IF any dispatch these as not being accurate . One needs only look to the heavens to see they are infact accurate. SO ya I hate the people who have stolen our happiness . True happiness . Ya I am bitter. I pissed we have starving children in Africa . When land the Britts stole is producing nice crops sent back to the Britts . The Britts are lucky my finger not On button . Because I would push it so fast it make your head spin. I would not feel one bit bad killing millions of people who have brought so much sorror and suffering to the World. History books don't lie completely. Unless their britsh publishers.

Wow, you want to nuke Britain in the name of your God? Curious, but how do you feel about 9/11? /extends more rope

 

[Pocatello]

Please don't respond to Nemesis.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
No not all auto workers have weapons, You seem to think for a reason I can't comprehend. That IF auto goes down . Everthing is OK . The railroad and auto industry are America. We let the rails decay . And now we kiiling auto . The chain reaction only brings that which comes anyway,more quicker.

Ya I had terriable teachers. They were good with teaching facts and how to gather facts and what to do with facts. But they were Priest and nuns . .The religion they taught was not in there livies . It was easy to see . Than there teaching us this way to live for true happiness. We look around us baby boomers and say What. Nobody was living in the body of Christ . NONE. So ya . I say its all a lie . Best part is They found evidance thats backs ME. Semerians tablets . IF any dispatch these as not being accurate . One needs only look to the heavens to see they are infact accurate. SO ya I hate the people who have stolen our happiness . True happiness . Ya I am bitter. I pissed we have starving children in Africa . When land the Britts stole is producing nice crops sent back to the Britts . The Britts are lucky my finger not On button . Because I would push it so fast it make your head spin. I would not feel one bit bad killing millions of people who have brought so much sorror and suffering to the World. History books don't lie completely. Unless their britsh publishers.

Wow, you want to nuke Britain in the name of your God? Curious, but how do you feel about 9/11? /extends more rope

No way. IF I did as stated God has nothing to do with it . That would be Godlessness. Because I am passing judgement that belings to the Lord. I go straight to Hell . But I would do it. Billions have suffered at their bloddy hands. Now they have us doing it . Because of the real Banks. Na britts got to go . By the way a prophet from south africa who is been pretty accurate says thats exactly what happens ./ So any country out their going to do the brits , I will push button./

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Wreckem
The Big 3 fail, they take down all the NA suppliers that also supply the foreign auto co's in the US.

You would see a ripple effect that would lead to a couple million more unemployed relatively overnight.

#1, even if all of the big 3 fail AND all the part suppliers fail, that is just a 3% hit to the GDP. The big 3 really aren't anywhere near as big as people think. Yes, lots of people will lose jobs, but it isn't a massive hit to the economy. We really don't need the big 3. Sure, there will be pain without them and we want at least 2 to survive. But it isn't a need like banks are a need.

#2, even if all of the big 3 survive, there STILL will be many closings and foreclosures in the part suppliers. There were 20% too many part suppliers in the peak of the sales. Now there are about 50%-70% too many part suppliers. Millions in the auto industry will lose jobs even if the big 3 are saved by the government.

#3, even if all of the big 3 fail, someone will pick up the pieces and jobs will be had again. There will just be a delay and there will be lower wages. We might not get all the jobs back (see #2), but we'll get a lot of them back.

You are overblowing the case and ignoring the fact that half the problems will occur anyways whether we save them or not.

3% of the GDP in one fell swoop is nothing to sneeze at. How people feel the economy is doing, is how the economy is doing. You put a million people out of work overnight especially with their concentration in the rust belt you are setting up a portion of the nation to experience as great a pain as those felt in the great depression. How will that play on the nightly news for the next decade? Somehow I think the reverberations will felt everywhere; wall street, main street, foreign investments, etc., throughout the country.

The question isn't if we can survive it. The question is how best to manage the situation to cause the least amount of pain for greatest amount of people.

btw-The number of suppliers has plummeted over the last 30 years and continues to do so. That doesn't mean jobs were lost, just that companies merged, were bought out, or went out of business.

 

[zephyrprime]

Originally posted by: retrospooty
That, and like I said, if they file bk - its not like all factories close and everyone goes home. There are billions upon billions of dollars in factories, IP, and experience - it will be bought out, cut the fat (UAW contracts and hopefully poorly designed cars) and restart under new management. this is unlike the banks, if they fail, we would be in a massive depression.

I'm not so sure the banks failing would be so disasterous as you say. If the banks failed, they too would go into bankruptcy, be recapitalized, and restarted under new management. The taxpayer would be on the hook for a ton of money, but hey, the tax payer is currently on the hook for a ton of money also. If anything, by allowing the banks the fail, the tax payers may be able to avoid paying a lot of financial speculators that bet against mortgage securities but at not banks and thus save some money. Also, the taxpayer would get a bigger equity of the banks to eventually sell.

Japan kept their banks from failing and as a result, their whole country has been in the tank economically for nearly 1.5 decades. Letting failing companies fail in an order and capital preserving route is the best way to handle business failures in my opinion.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: coolVariable
Seems like financial scammers (that what CDSs are) get rewarded and the workers of america, as well as the financiers that back american enterprises (GM/Chrysler bondholders) get punished.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...ated-apf-14789941.html

Obviously the workers of America are overpaid and under worked while the wizards of Wall street are worth their weight in gold no matter what they do.

Are you mad yet. You should be. Bought weapons yet . You should. Are you preparing you should . If auto goes down America goes down FACT. WHY . My side will now have all the people required to end this BS.Millions of blue colars almost all with weapons . I say let them fail . Lets fight this fight and get it over with. I have even decided I will kill now . My spirtit isn't worth all the spirits that well be lost if I don't act also. Auto goes down its a chain reaction. So the only employer will be The bank of england.

:music: I'm goin' dowwwwwn in a blaze of glory! :music:

 

[coolVariable]

Originally posted by: zephyrprime

Originally posted by: retrospooty
That, and like I said, if they file bk - its not like all factories close and everyone goes home. There are billions upon billions of dollars in factories, IP, and experience - it will be bought out, cut the fat (UAW contracts and hopefully poorly designed cars) and restart under new management. this is unlike the banks, if they fail, we would be in a massive depression.

I'm not so sure the banks failing would be so disasterous as you say. If the banks failed, they too would go into bankruptcy, be recapitalized, and restarted under new management. The taxpayer would be on the hook for a ton of money, but hey, the tax payer is currently on the hook for a ton of money also. If anything, by allowing the banks the fail, the tax payers may be able to avoid paying a lot of financial speculators that bet against mortgage securities but at not banks and thus save some money. Also, the taxpayer would get a bigger equity of the banks to eventually sell.

Japan kept their banks from failing and as a result, their whole country has been in the tank economically for nearly 1.5 decades. Letting failing companies fail in an order and capital preserving route is the best way to handle business failures in my opinion.

Yup.
And someone explain to me why the bad investments made by banks get saved by the gov't but the investors into one of the US largest employers are left out in the rain?

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: coolVariable

Originally posted by: zephyrprime

Originally posted by: retrospooty
That, and like I said, if they file bk - its not like all factories close and everyone goes home. There are billions upon billions of dollars in factories, IP, and experience - it will be bought out, cut the fat (UAW contracts and hopefully poorly designed cars) and restart under new management. this is unlike the banks, if they fail, we would be in a massive depression.

I'm not so sure the banks failing would be so disasterous as you say. If the banks failed, they too would go into bankruptcy, be recapitalized, and restarted under new management. The taxpayer would be on the hook for a ton of money, but hey, the tax payer is currently on the hook for a ton of money also. If anything, by allowing the banks the fail, the tax payers may be able to avoid paying a lot of financial speculators that bet against mortgage securities but at not banks and thus save some money. Also, the taxpayer would get a bigger equity of the banks to eventually sell.

Japan kept their banks from failing and as a result, their whole country has been in the tank economically for nearly 1.5 decades. Letting failing companies fail in an order and capital preserving route is the best way to handle business failures in my opinion.

Yup.
And someone explain to me why the bad investments made by banks get saved by the gov't but the investors into one of the US largest employers are left out in the rain?

Someone forgot to tell the auto makers to line congressional pockets with gold. The barons of greed on Wall Street never forgot that lesson. Money buys power, power returns money.

All our Congresssmen have been bought and paid for. Name one who hasn't! Just ONE.

-Robert

 

[Sacrilege]

If the financial system was allowed to collapse, the rest of the economy would be in serious trouble for years. If the domestic auto industry fails, other industries would not be completely depressed.

Additionally, Ford isn't even in serious trouble. And if GM and Chrysler go into Ch. 11, they will still emerge as leaner, more profitable companies. Not everything would be lost.

Not to mention, there are many foreign manufacturers with plants in the US. Much of the "domestic" companies plants are in foreign countries. It is not a clear cut situation, and the US auto industry is bigger than the Big Three.

And maybe we should take up a collection for medication for Nemesis1....

 

[Mani]

This is a ridiculous premise. Of course Obama is going to place greater emphasis on Wall Street. Credit affects every single facet of our economy, including the auto sector. Without the flow of credit, GM and Ford have no prayer of restructuring themselves.

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
No not all auto workers have weapons, You seem to think for a reason I can't comprehend. That IF auto goes down . Everthing is OK . The railroad and auto industry are America. We let the rails decay . And now we kiiling auto . The chain reaction only brings that which comes anyway,more quicker.

Ya I had terriable teachers. They were good with teaching facts and how to gather facts and what to do with facts. But they were Priest and nuns . .The religion they taught was not in there livies . It was easy to see . Than there teaching us this way to live for true happiness. We look around us baby boomers and say What. Nobody was living in the body of Christ . NONE. So ya . I say its all a lie . Best part is They found evidance thats backs ME. Semerians tablets . IF any dispatch these as not being accurate . One needs only look to the heavens to see they are infact accurate. SO ya I hate the people who have stolen our happiness . True happiness . Ya I am bitter. I pissed we have starving children in Africa . When land the Britts stole is producing nice crops sent back to the Britts . The Britts are lucky my finger not On button . Because I would push it so fast it make your head spin. I would not feel one bit bad killing millions of people who have brought so much sorror and suffering to the World. History books don't lie completely. Unless their britsh publishers.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is what lead paint does to your child.

 

[TruePaige]

I think we should pump up Tesla motors and get a jump start on the technology of tomorrow. Let's build an all electric infrastructure for vehicles and stop propping up dying industries.

 

[glenn1]

Originally posted by: coolVariable
Seems like financial scammers (that what CDSs are) get rewarded and the workers of america, as well as the financiers that back american enterprises (GM/Chrysler bondholders) get punished.[/L]

Ummm... sorry to break this to you, but those banks are the bondholders you're despairing for. If anything, this just shows how poorly thought out the Obama approach is - part of the government is busy shoveling billions to the banks, and another part is trying to force them to accept billions in losses on the bonds, and for what? The government's convenience?

Why should the banks' debt be converted to equity? Who the fvck wants that? If anything, the UAW should be forced to take the equity - let them own the worthless automakers. Then we'll see some real progress because they'll reduce wages and benefits in a heartbeat, since the companies won't be economically viable otherwise and the worth of their ownership stake will depend on that.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: aphex
I don't think ANY amount of money pumped into the US automakers could make any difference at this point, pumping any money into them is just delaying the inevitable.

This. Only, I would add that we never should have given them any "bailout money" in the first place.

It's disgusting.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
No not all auto workers have weapons, You seem to think for a reason I can't comprehend. That IF auto goes down . Everthing is OK . The railroad and auto industry are America. We let the rails decay . And now we kiiling auto . The chain reaction only brings that which comes anyway,more quicker.

Ya I had terriable teachers. They were good with teaching facts and how to gather facts and what to do with facts. But they were Priest and nuns . .The religion they taught was not in there livies . It was easy to see . Than there teaching us this way to live for true happiness. We look around us baby boomers and say What. Nobody was living in the body of Christ . NONE. So ya . I say its all a lie . Best part is They found evidance thats backs ME. Semerians tablets . IF any dispatch these as not being accurate . One needs only look to the heavens to see they are infact accurate. SO ya I hate the people who have stolen our happiness . True happiness . Ya I am bitter. I pissed we have starving children in Africa . When land the Britts stole is producing nice crops sent back to the Britts . The Britts are lucky my finger not On button . Because I would push it so fast it make your head spin. I would not feel one bit bad killing millions of people who have brought so much sorror and suffering to the World. History books don't lie completely. Unless their britsh publishers.

holy.... shit.

 

[coolVariable]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Originally posted by: coolVariable
Seems like financial scammers (that what CDSs are) get rewarded and the workers of america, as well as the financiers that back american enterprises (GM/Chrysler bondholders) get punished.[/L]

Ummm... sorry to break this to you, but those banks are the bondholders you're despairing for. If anything, this just shows how poorly thought out the Obama approach is - part of the government is busy shoveling billions to the banks, and another part is trying to force them to accept billions in losses on the bonds, and for what? The government's convenience?

Why should the banks' debt be converted to equity? Who the fvck wants that? If anything, the UAW should be forced to take the equity - let them own the worthless automakers. Then we'll see some real progress because they'll reduce wages and benefits in a heartbeat, since the companies won't be economically viable otherwise and the worth of their ownership stake will depend on that.

So right.