Obama to order immunity for young illegal immigrants

[michal1980]

see the main difference is that.. even though we live in the same country.. my country wouldn't punish people for bettering themselves.. and that my friend, is why your shitty idea of that kind of shithole country, will die... it already is, cant deny it.

No my shithole country wouldnt do things as backwards.

We wouldn't make it impossible to come here legally. We wouldn't make it immposible to stay here if you came legally and actually bettered yourself.

But we would also punish / kick out those that came here while breaking the law.

Thats the difference between my country and yours. Yours rewards those that do not respect the laws. Mine would reward those that do.

By your logic, we shouldn't punish bank robbers, they are just bettering themselves.

 

[1prophet]

$10.50 is cheap. Sounds like he would raise the wages more.

Lower or abolish the minimum wage, oh wait $10.50 is much more than the minimum wage of $7.64 in Colorado yet they still are having a hard time finding unskilled workers.

You can pay those people $20.50 an hour and it still won't be enough to keep them from quitting.

Six hours was enough, between the 6 a.m. start time and noon lunch break, for the first wave of local workers to quit. Some simply never came back and gave no reason. Twenty-five of them said specifically, according to farm records, that the work was too hard. On the Harold farm, pickers walk the rows alongside a huge harvest vehicle called a mule train, plucking ears of corn and handing them up to workers on the mule who box them and lift the crates, each weighing 45 to 50 pounds.
“It is not an easy job,” said Kerry Mattics, 49, another H-2A farmer here in Olathe, who brought in only a third of his usual Mexican crew of 12 workers for his 50-acre fruit and vegetable farm, then struggled to make it through the season. “It’s outside, so if it’s wet, you’re wet, and if it’s hot you’re hot,” he said.
Still, Mr. Mattics said, he can’t help feeling that people have gotten soft.
“They wanted that $10.50 an hour without doing very much,” he said. “I know people with college degrees, working for the school system and only making 11 bucks.”

Americans have become too light for heavy work and too heavy for light work and cry a river about the injustice of it all.

 

[Ninjahedge]

First of all, if people are paid more, it's stops being "cheap labor." What is your evidence for this anyway? Generally, if you pay people enough they will do just about anything. The real problem is that farmers and other businesses aren't properly penalized for using illegal labor.

There was an interview on, I believe Colbert, saying that this one south west farmer tried to find people to come and work in the field picking. She was offering $10/hr to go out and do it (over the minimum wage and MUCH higher than what the Mexican laborers get paid) and NOBODY took it.

In order to get enough legal workers to pick her product, she would have to increase the price to be able to make any profit at all. Companies like WalMart will not pay these amounts, and we as consumers are also reluctant to pay these amounts (again looking to WalMart and how they work people 39 hours/wk to avoid having to pay any benefits, the way they make themselves the only consumer of a certain producers product, then drop the price they are willing to pay for it... etc etc).

As for the semantics over "cheap labor" I am not even getting into that. A strawberry picker is paid less than a lawyer and slightly less than a teacher. Paying them quadruple what the going street-corner cash-off-the-books rate for a days labor is STILL cheaper than getting someone on the books... But that is not the focus of my argument.

 

[Ninjahedge]

The problem is they are excluding people who came her at the age of 3 on VISA. Why should an kid who came with their parents on a VISA be excluded when someone who snuck on with their parents isn't.

That is not a problem. That SHOULD be included.

Siting another injustice as a reason to forbid both does not justify rejection of both.

I agree, the Visa kids should be no different in this, but there has to be some solid standards.

You just should not deport a 20 year old because his parents never got him citizenship when they brought him in when he was 3.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Really?

Obama already crowned himself king, and has dictated which laws he will, and will not enforce based on how many votes it gets him.

Exaggeration and conjecture.

He did not proclaim himself "King" and not even the Republicans have resorted (en masse) to calling him such (or claiming he has).

You are trolling.

 

[BoberFett]

There was an interview on, I believe Colbert, saying that this one south west farmer tried to find people to come and work in the field picking. She was offering $10/hr to go out and do it (over the minimum wage and MUCH higher than what the Mexican laborers get paid) and NOBODY took it.

In order to get enough legal workers to pick her product, she would have to increase the price to be able to make any profit at all. Companies like WalMart will not pay these amounts, and we as consumers are also reluctant to pay these amounts (again looking to WalMart and how they work people 39 hours/wk to avoid having to pay any benefits, the way they make themselves the only consumer of a certain producers product, then drop the price they are willing to pay for it... etc etc).

As for the semantics over "cheap labor" I am not even getting into that. A strawberry picker is paid less than a lawyer and slightly less than a teacher. Paying them quadruple what the going street-corner cash-off-the-books rate for a days labor is STILL cheaper than getting someone on the books... But that is not the focus of my argument.

That sure puts the Democrat talking points into a quandary then doesn't it?

Maybe we do need to start letting people starve in this country if they're too good to the work that's necessary. Hunger is a great motivator.

 

[alkemyst]

(again looking to WalMart and how they work people 39 hours/wk to avoid having to pay any benefits, the way they make themselves the only consumer of a certain producers product, then drop the price they are willing to pay for it... etc etc).

this is false.

its more like less than 34 hours, many retail jobs do this as well. also many are on medicaid and the like anyway.

 

[Ninjahedge]

this is false.

its more like less than 34 hours, many retail jobs do this as well. also many are on medicaid and the like anyway.

And that is somehow better?

I fail to see the point of your post.

 

[brandonb]

Obama should be removed from office for treason. The people do not support immunity. This is just a grab for votes in the upcoming election from a certain minority group.

Pathetic.

 

[Infohawk]

There was an interview on, I believe Colbert, saying that this one south west farmer tried to find people to come and work in the field picking. She was offering $10/hr to go out and do it (over the minimum wage and MUCH higher than what the Mexican laborers get paid) and NOBODY took it.

In order to get enough legal workers to pick her product, she would have to increase the price to be able to make any profit at all.

So what? Yes, prices would increase in certain situations. Growers might have to change crops. Maybe there would be more incentive to introduce mechanization. Although I'm not even sure I really believe enough time was given for workers to really consider it. And for a couple dollars savings for strawberries, don't forget to offset that against the cost of educating several children per worker.

 

[Infohawk]

You can pay those people $20.50 an hour and it still won't be enough to keep them from quitting.

So what? Pay them more if the work needs to be done. Prices will adjust accordingly and the population will decide where they prefer production to be focused.

 

[alkemyst]

And that is somehow better?

I fail to see the point of your post.

the point is its clear you dont understand your argument.

 

[werepossum]

Exaggeration and conjecture.

He did not proclaim himself "King" and not even the Republicans have resorted (en masse) to calling him such (or claiming he has).

You are trolling.

He's pretty much done the same thing. A year or so ago Obama specifically rejected this very measure, saying that he didn't have the legal authority to do this by executive order. Now apparently he's decided he does have that power.

Just goes to show that those of us who supported Obama when he decided to stop defending DOMA were probably wrong to do so. Now by executive order he's effectively changing immigration law. It's the camel's nose, support him seizing power in things you like and you also give him courage to do things you don't like.

 

[alzan]

http://gab.wi.gov/sites/default/fil...ation_application_gab_131_fillable__14839.pdf

For someone that already broke one law breaking into the country, whats stopping them from another.

What on that registration form prevents an illegal from voting? If they vote for Obama, and might get in trouble, he'll come out tomorrow and say that we no longer enforce that la.


Obama is king when he, on his own, makes up whatever rules/laws he wants.

The DoJ is controlled by an appointee of Obama, who serves as long as King Obama wants him too.

So you have verifiable proof of a large number of illegal aliens that have committed voter fraud? Would love to see it. I'll also be anxiously waiting your prediction of what will happen after November 4th.

Was any other President who signed Executive Orders declaring themselves King when they did so? And were you concerned/outraged then?

I see. So all Presidential appointees are merely puppets at the hands of their particular Geppetto; incapable of any independent thought or action? And the President(s), who have all the time in the world, nay, they can even stop time, can set the words and actions of their appointees into motion so that there's more time for Presidents to sit in their counting houses and take treasure baths in the taxes gleaned from their subjects?

I hope you brought enough of whatever you're smoking to share with the rest of the forum.

 

[alzan]

Obama himself said he couldn't do what he did about a year ago.


Which time was he wrong?

A year ago he said he couldn't change the law.

An Executive Order is of limited duration; it does not change the law.

How much effort has Congress put towards enacting the DREAM Act?

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

While BO is pandering to the ILLEGALS, other sovereign nations around the world are enforcing their immigration law.

Israel = http://news.yahoo.com/israel-expels-120-south-sudanese-part-campaign-reduce-130027689.html

Germany and France = http://www.modernghana.com/news/401654/1/germany-and-france-planning-to-lock-their-borders-.html

France = http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...trains-carrying-north-African-immigrants.html

European Union = http://www.rt.com/news/france-italy-migrants-conflict/

Dominican Republic = http://articles.cnn.com/2012-06-13/...al-immigrants-immigration-laws?_s=PM:AMERICAS

Greece = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFcPXzybLmM

Tunisia = http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/14/us-tunisia-idUSTRE71D2TS20110214

Can any of the ILLEGALS and their lovers/supporters provide a few links that other sovereign nations are giving break/amnesty to ILLEGLAS?

Even though its been patiently and clearly pointed out what the difference between 'illegal' and 'undocumented' is, you insist on your silly counter-argument of using ALL CAPS.

Furthermore, Canada and Australia don't have third world countries on their borders. Just about the worst examples you could use.

 

[michal1980]

A year ago he said he couldn't change the law.

An Executive Order is of limited duration; it does not change the law.

How much effort has Congress put towards enacting the DREAM Act?

Ok Obama truther. Those paychecks must be really adding up to put in so much spin.

If the law isn't being enforced how is it not being changed?


Again, if last year he came out and said he could not do what he did last week; when was he wrong?

Was Obama wrong last year?
Or
Is Obama wrong this year?



How far could your king push this with you still being OK with it?

Should he allow them to vote? After all they live in the country why shouldn't they have a say in how its ran?

 

[etrigan420]

Furthermore, Canada and Australia don't have third world countries on their borders. Just about the worst examples you could use.

Well, Canada *is* right next to Michigan...so there's that.

I don't have an answer on illegal immigration, but if they deport the guys that run the local taco truck, I'm gonna be pissed. :twisted:

 

[Ninjahedge]

So what? Yes, prices would increase in certain situations. Growers might have to change crops. Maybe there would be more incentive to introduce mechanization. Although I'm not even sure I really believe enough time was given for workers to really consider it. And for a couple dollars savings for strawberries, don't forget to offset that against the cost of educating several children per worker.

Again, speculation.

The cost of educating children that will become part of the US workforce or US citizens. The HORROR!

It is not like Jose is coming over here to pick corn at $20 a day so that Carlos and Tina get a free education (how would they do that again?) and run back to Mexico to become successful Corn Lawyers. If you actually looked at the cost you have coming out of your taxes per year to educate EVERY SINGLE MEXICAN IMMIGRANT that comes over, I doubt you would be paying much more than what you saved on a single quart of strawberries. Calling that out as an example is a distraction that has little merit or actual basis.

As for "enough time for workers to consider it", I do not know what you are talking about. Yes, if the situation gets horrible and people are starving, more will be motivated to work. But seeing how people will spend more time looking for aluminum cans to recycle than actually WORK (come to NYC), it is unlikely we will be able to get the workforce that is needed at any level that would be sustainable and still profitable for the companies/farms.

 

[Ninjahedge]

the point is its clear you dont understand your argument.

No.

1. The point is THAT it is clear, for one. Lear your grammar Mr Brilliant.
2. Your argument has no basis.

 

[alzan]

Ok Obama truther. Those paychecks must be really adding up to put in so much spin.

If the law isn't being enforced how is it not being changed?


Again, if last year he came out and said he could not do what he did last week; when was he wrong?

Was Obama wrong last year?
Or
Is Obama wrong this year?



How far could your king push this with you still being OK with it?

Should he allow them to vote? After all they live in the country why shouldn't they have a say in how its ran?

Obama truther? Whatever floats your boat dude. And speaking of paychecks adding up, look in the mirror.

The federal government does not have the manpower to enforce a lot of laws on it's books; the laws, and any penalties are still on the books. I don't think you're advocating for much higher taxes so that the manpower can be hired.

You would have to ask the lawyers and/or advisers who told him that; I don't have access to their work product.

Again, you seem to be confused; Obama has the title of President, not King. Talk about spin. And it's not so much a matter of my being OK with it as it is that there are way many more problems that need fixing. Allowing teenagers that haven't committed any crimes to have guest visas isn't on my list of Things That Need Fixing Yesterday.

Once they're legally allowed to vote, I don't have a problem with them voting.

 

[Infohawk]

Again, speculation.

The cost of educating children that will become part of the US workforce or US citizens. The HORROR!

There is no speculation. It costs a minimum of $7,000 per child per year for states to educate children. How much do you farm workers are paying in state taxes a year?

If you actually looked at the cost you have coming out of your taxes per year to educate EVERY SINGLE MEXICAN IMMIGRANT that comes over, I doubt you would be paying much more than what you saved on a single quart of strawberries.

No.

 

[airdata]

TBH the immunity should be more sweeping. If people are living here, paying taxes, and living better lives than some of the natives why should they not be freed from the day to day fear of deportation?

 

[Capt Caveman]

Don't know if it's already been posted:

Voters approve of President Obama’s immigration order, 2 to 1, poll shows

 

[Ninjahedge]

There is no speculation. It costs a minimum of $7,000 per child per year for states to educate children. How much do you farm workers are paying in state taxes a year?

And how many children is that?
How many tax payers?
How many $/yr/taxpayer?

No.

Yes.

Between off-the-books labor and buying subsidized Chinese products, we have dug ourselves in a hole.

From a time when having a 27" TV was "OMGWTFBBQ!!?!" to where it is considered lame if you have less than 50" of flat-screen HDTV, we have gotten used to the "savings" our lifestyles can enjoy... at the cost of the economy in general.

People will NOT want to pay $3 for a head of Iceberg lettuce, $10 a pound for ground beef (corn prices...etc etc) or $4000 for a TV.

Things are constantly conflated.


And, AGAIN, $7,000/yr (you need to show the source for that) per kid is nothing if we end up getting an EDUCATED AMERICAN CITIZEN out of it. We are not throwing that money away, which you seem to imply.

Also, not all immigrant workers come over w/family, so again the numbers get artificially distended.

Too many factors and no bottom line.