Obama to Block CIA from "advanced interrogation"

[jonks]

Obama either has issued or will be issuing several orders re: treatment of prisoners. Closing gitmo, closing overseas black sites, and requiring all detainees be questioned in a manner subject to the Army Field Manual.

Fox weighs in:

WASHINGTON -- President Obama, putting his executive pen in his left hand to overrule eight years of Bush administration policy, signed "several" executive orders Thursday, including ones affecting national security.

The national security orders mandate that interrogation techniques in the Army Field Manual be used by all intelligence and law enforcement services; call for a task force to look at closing the detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, within the year; and orders a strategy to be developed for handling detainees in the future. The presidential directive also orders a stay in the case of Ali Al-Marri, the only person being held by the military as an enemy combatant on U.S. soil.

"We intend to win this fight. We're going to win it on our terms," Obama said as he signed the orders and the directive in the Oval Office. Obama explained each order before he put his pen to them, in some cases reading them in full, and occasionally solicited input from White House counsel Greg Craig to make sure he was describing them correctly.

The executive order says everyone in custody should be questioned under the Army Field Manual, which is intended for honorable combatants, meaning POWs in a military conflict. The rule would prevent trained interrogators at the CIA from using lawful interrogation techniques against terrorists who have been trained to withstand Army Field Manual techniques.

"The message that we are sending the world is that the United States intends to prosecute the ongoing struggle against violence and terrorism and we are going to do so vigilantly and we are going to do so effectively and we are going to do so in a manner that is consistent with our values and our ideals," the president said.

According to sources in the law enforcement community, the executive order on interrogation does not declare "enhanced interrogation techniques" to be torture; the order is silent on that.

"This allows for a lot of flexibility, a lot of wiggle room," said one source.

While the administration has insisted on one interrogation standard, one source says they are thinking about assembling a group within the next 60 days to make recommendations on a set of separate techniques for the intelligence community to use.

My beef with the bolded above is the assertion that the CIA techniques applied were unquestionaly legal, and that they are more effective; both highly debatable.

With all due respect to the journalists at Fox, below two life-long experts in interrogation have their say. The piece is undated but I believe it is from Feb 2008.

Interrogation Experts Call for Senate to Require Adherence to Army Field Manual

State of the Art
By Joe Navarro and David Irvine

John McCain, a former POW and a victim of torture himself, recently said that how we interrogate prisoners is a "defining issue" for America. He's right. Congress will soon have the opportunity to resolve this vital issue by making the U.S. Army Field Manual on Interrogation the single standard for all United States interrogations. The Manual is, as McCain also noted, "humane yet effective."

But the CIA and Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell have reportedly been telling members of Congress that the Field Manual is essentially "Interrogation for Dummies." It may be fine for unsophisticated military recruits doing battlefield interviews, but it supposedly lacks the "advanced" techniques wielded by the wizards of the CIA. The argument has variations ? we cannot trust young soldiers with these sophisticated techniques, al Qaeda suspects are uniquely resistant supermen ? but the message is basically the same: "We at the CIA are better at this -- more sophisticated, more experienced, more knowledgeable."

Nonsense. The fantasy of the super spies who can take clever shortcuts to obtaining vital information is just that ? a fantasy. As John McCain also said, "I would hope that we would understand, my friends, that life is not '24' and Jack Bauer."

Each of us has decades of professional experience with interrogation and intelligence. Between us we have interrogated enemy prisoners, written books on hunting terrorists for the FBI, and taught interrogation techniques for nearly two decades. Let us set aside for a moment the issues of morality, the Constitution, the Geneva Conventions and even the propaganda bonanza our antagonists reap from stories about waterboarding and KGB techniques like sleep deprivation. Speaking solely from the point of view of effectiveness, we agree with the U.S. general who told Senator McCain in Iraq that U.S. interrogators don't need any techniques that go beyond the Field Manual.

The myth that brutal techniques are either necessary or effective is resilient. But inhumane interrogation methods hurt rather than assist effective interrogations. If a skilled interrogator approaches a detainee who has been abused, it is very hard to repair the damage. The methods of the Field Manual are sometimes mocked as simplistic "rapport building." But they are in fact a battery of tried and true, refined techniques which use a variety of psychological ploys to obtain truthful, actionable information. As intelligence professionals we do not want ? or need ? any other tools.

But these techniques do require skill and experience. Slapping prisoners, waterboarding them, keeping them awake for days, making them crouch in awkward positions or stand for days without movement ? none of these techniques requires much skill. That is perhaps the ultimate irony of the CIA argument ? it advances crude and brutal techniques as the state of the interrogation art when, in fact, the Field Manual techniques are both more effective and require more sophistication and skill. What did John Kirakou, the CIA agent who appeared on 60 Minutes last month to extol the virtues of waterboarding, say to the CIA when they offered to train him in these techniques: no thanks. And for that matter, if the CIA has a cadre of skilled, experienced interrogators, why did it want to start from scratch with Kirakou?

Indeed, there is considerable evidence that the CIA had to scramble after 9/11 to develop an interrogation program and turned to individuals with no professional experience in the field. The widely reported CIA process of "reverse engineering" the military training program designed to help U.S. personnel resist torture makes this painfully clear. There is every indication that this was much more a case of "amateur hour" than "master spies" at work. Given the crisis atmosphere of the day, it is all too easy to believe the comment of an intelligence insider who said of the secret program to detain and interrogate al Qaeda suspects that "quality control went out the window."

Will a prisoner sometimes surrender useful information under torture? Of course. But this hardly ends the inquiry. How much false information was provided as well? How much more information might have been gained by other, less brutal and more sophisticated techniques? Regrettably, there is much truth in the comment of a CIA officer who was quoted in the Washington Post recently: "[T]his kind of stuff just makes people feel better, even if it doesn't work."

The Field Manual is humane and effective ? and both are important reasons for Congress to require the CIA to follow it.


Brigadier General David R. Irvine, USA (Ret.)

Brigadier General Irvine enlisted in the 96th Infantry Division, United States Army Reserve, in 1962. He received a direct commission in 1967 as a strategic intelligence officer. He maintained a faculty assignment for 18 years with the Sixth U.S. Army Intelligence School, and taught prisoner of war interrogation and military law for several hundred soldiers, Marines, and airmen. He retired in 2002, and his last assignment was Deputy Commander for the 96th Regional Readiness Command. General Irvine is an attorney, and practices law in Salt Lake City, Utah. He served 4 terms as a Republican legislator in the Utah House of Representatives, has served as a congressional chief of staff, and served as a commissioner on the Utah Public Utilities Commission.

Joe Navarro

Joe Navarro has been an interrogator with the Federal Bureau of Investigations for 28 years - as an FBI agent and as a supervisor in the area of counterintelligence and counterterrorism. Navarro continues to serve as a consultant to the FBI and other members of the intelligence community, and lectures around the world on behavioral analysis, interviewing, and nonverbal behavior. He co-authored Advanced Interviewing Techniques, and wrote Hunting Terrorists: a Look at The Psychopathology of Terror.

One further benefit from this order not mentioned above is simple uniformity and clarity about what is acceptable, and what is not. Many of the low-level soldiers and officers busted for questionable interrogation techniques argue they were told to do X and didn't know they couldn't because of ambiguous rules and orders coming from as high as the white house. Some of Bush's executive orders mentioned in the court papers do lend themselves quite a bit to interpretation about what techniques are valid. And it was known the CIA were "allowed" to use other techniques and that Gitmo detainees were subject to "other" techniques, so the message sent out is that "well, sometimes we can do really bad things if we want to." And if you think Lynndie England & Co came up with the hoods and electrodes all on their own, well, I've got an Army Field Manual to sell you.

Issuing this order tells all interrogators "there is one standard. There is one set of rules. Here it is." Any interrogator who steps outside the AFM will not be able to plead ignorance of the rules. There is no longer any ambiguity. And the benefit extends to the US reputation around the world. It tells foreign people that, yes, we are not our enemy, we're better than them.

Because "we don't torture." And now we can say it with a straight face.


[probably goes without saying but I wouldn't quote this entire post in your replies]

 

[Budmantom]

Obama is doing his best to make it easier for the terrorists, I think they may have voted for him.

 

[Taejin]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
blah blah blah FEAR blah blah RUSH LIMBAUGH blah blah I want Bush's babies blah blah

fixed

Death to America! Allahu Akbar! Be afraid our comrade in arms Barack Obama will undermine you!

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Obama is doing his best to make it easier for the terrorists, I think they may have voted for him.

He is doing what is Right. Something the "Right" has forgotten.

 

[mxyzptlk]

President Obama, putting his executive pen in his left hand to overrule eight years of Bush administration policy, signed "several" executive orders Thursday, including ones affecting national security.

Sweet JEEZUS, he's one of THEM!

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Obama is doing his best to make it easier for the terrorists, I think they may have voted for him.

You're a very fast reader.

 

[MovingTarget]

Good. I for one have no problem with our techniques being published to be sure that the process is transparent and lawful. You can be trained to resist said techniques, but in the end, everyone will "crack" after a while. Sure, other countries may not hold themselves up to those kind of standards. However this is one area where we need to set the example....it is called.....whats the word......leadership.

 

[fskimospy]

This might sound like a cheap shot at Bush, but I don't really mean it that way: Thank god the adults are back in charge.

At least in regards to torture, no more of the grey area hedging, no more saying 'we don't torture' out of one side of our mouths while ordering what everyone knows to be torture out of the other side. Some of the biggest humiliations America has produced over the last 8 years (Guantanamo, torture) are being set right. Glad to hear it.

 

[spidey07]

He is doing what I feared the most. Completely and totally undermining our security efforts. You don't want the enemy to be able to look up your field manual on interrogation, you want them to fear for their lives that they ever have to go through it.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: spidey07
He is doing what I feared the most. Completely and totally undermining our security efforts. You don't want the enemy to be able to look up your field manual on interrogation, you want them to fear for their lives that they ever have to go through it.

Funny how their "fear" didn't stop them from attacking our soldiers when Bush and all of his security measures were going full throttle eh? Face it man. These people don't fear any of that crap no matter what we say or do to them. They are willing to run towards our men with bombs strapped to their chest for christ's sake. I am not saying we should just let them do whatever they want, but using fear as the primary weapon doesn't work with these guys.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: spidey07
He is doing what I feared the most. Completely and totally undermining our security efforts. You don't want the enemy to be able to look up your field manual on interrogation, you want them to fear for their lives that they ever have to go through it.

Try reading what the 2 life long interrogation experts and instructors wrote above. Not that you'll agree with them, but at least you'll understand why rational people might take their advice over your very valuable opinion.

 

[OCGuy]

Yea, there was also a loophole that Obama left himself to "find" new interrogation techniques that are not currently approved in the Army field manual. We'll see what he finds acceptable.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: spidey07
He is doing what I feared the most. Completely and totally undermining our security efforts. You don't want the enemy to be able to look up your field manual on interrogation, you want them to fear for their lives that they ever have to go through it.

It kind of sucks that were are a country of laws isn't it. Now Russia and China haven't this problem.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: spidey07
He is doing what I feared the most. Completely and totally undermining our security efforts. You don't want the enemy to be able to look up your field manual on interrogation, you want them to fear for their lives that they ever have to go through it.

It kind of sucks that were are a country of laws isn't it. Now Russia and China haven't this problem.

I don't believe our laws should apply to enemy combatants outside of our boundaries. It's really that simple. We need to use any means necessary to gather information and intelligence from our enemies.

 

[winnar111]

Just wait till AQ takes advantage of our crippled intelligence. What will lefties say then?

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: spidey07
He is doing what I feared the most. Completely and totally undermining our security efforts. You don't want the enemy to be able to look up your field manual on interrogation, you want them to fear for their lives that they ever have to go through it.

It kind of sucks that were are a country of laws isn't it. Now Russia and China haven't this problem.

I would like to thank the British who, during our independence, marched down the streets in neat little rows. Just as we figuratively do now.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: spidey07
He is doing what I feared the most. Completely and totally undermining our security efforts. You don't want the enemy to be able to look up your field manual on interrogation, you want them to fear for their lives that they ever have to go through it.

It kind of sucks that were are a country of laws isn't it. Now Russia and China haven't this problem.

I don't believe our laws should apply to enemy combatants outside of our boundaries. It's really that simple. We need to use any means necessary to gather information and intelligence from our enemies.

So without torture we won't be able to do the job getting info on our enemies?

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Taejin

Originally posted by: Budmantom
blah blah blah FEAR blah blah RUSH LIMBAUGH blah blah I want Bush's babies blah blah

fixed

Death to America! Allahu Akbar! Be afraid our comrade in arms Barack Obama will undermine you!

LOL and right on the money

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Obama is doing his best to make it easier for the terrorists, I think they may have voted for him.

So your saying you are pro torture?

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Obama is doing his best to make it easier for the terrorists, I think they may have voted for him.

So your saying you are pro torture?

You honestly think that a guy with that signature will be able to put together a well-though and cogent argument?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: winnar111
Just wait till AQ takes advantage of our crippled intelligence. What will lefties say then?

I suspect they already have. Remember all those potential Threats in '04?

 

[Red Dawn]

n/m

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: spidey07
He is doing what I feared the most. Completely and totally undermining our security efforts. You don't want the enemy to be able to look up your field manual on interrogation, you want them to fear for their lives that they ever have to go through it.

It kind of sucks that were are a country of laws isn't it. Now Russia and China haven't this problem.

I would like to thank the British who, during our independence, marched down the streets in neat little rows. Just as we figuratively do now.

Funny you mention that. While our Indian style tactics inflicted casualties on the British, we also lost almost every single battle we fought against them. It wasn't until we adopted and mastered the actual art of large scale battle (which involved standing in neat little rows) that we started winning battles, and were able to win the war.

You're just buying into a false dichotomy. You seem to think that we can either have effective intelligence, or we can not torture people, that it's an either/or proposition. There's no evidence for that.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: spidey07
He is doing what I feared the most. Completely and totally undermining our security efforts. You don't want the enemy to be able to look up your field manual on interrogation, you want them to fear for their lives that they ever have to go through it.

that sounds rational to me......rofl...hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa

spidey07 what Obama is doing is re- establishing something we had lost in the last 8 years.....integrity and leadership!!

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: spidey07
He is doing what I feared the most. Completely and totally undermining our security efforts. You don't want the enemy to be able to look up your field manual on interrogation, you want them to fear for their lives that they ever have to go through it.

that sounds rational to me......rofl...hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa

spidey07 what Obama is doing is re- establishing something we had lost in the last 8 years.....integrity and leadership!!

The last 8 years has seen the federal government start to do what it is supposed to do as specified in The Constitution. Obama is already failing on his oath and it's been barely 48 hours. I'm really not surprised at that bastard.