Obama tells NASA "Don't reach for the Moon"

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
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I'm a big fan of space. In fact, one of my favorite pastimes is spending hours rummaging through NASA archives on the golden age of human spaceflight, i.e. the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo era.

I don't know if many remember, but once NASA had chosen the Space Shuttle as their only man-rated vehicle, they destroyed anything and everything that could remotely challenge it, including the highly successful Saturn booster designs which could lob 130+ tons into earth orbit and had proved their versatility in earth orbit too with the Skylab missions. This design had been largely paid for and could easily be modified for new uses. Of course, once it achieved it's primary mission, Apollo/Saturn just wasn't sexy enough for NASA, so out the door it went. As von Braun put it (I'm quoting from memory), it was as if someone had laid a railroad track through the West and ripped it out after a few trial runs.

The Space Shuttle was fatally compromised by conflicting requirements from both the civilian and military sides, one such compromise being no escape mechanism for the astronauts in the event of a catastrophe. Given the amount of money that's been poured into it, the returns have been abysmally low, coupled with the loss of two crews.

The 100 billion dollar plus space-lab is another boondoggle with dubious returns on equity, unless growing crystals in space for the bazillionth time, or seeing spiders spinning webs in space or yet another ham radio conference with school-kids is considered worth the kind of money spent. Most importantly, it has not addressed what I think is the fundamental problem of sustained human presence in space: a cheap, reliable, replicable life-sustaining system.

The Ares design is one more step in the wrong direction. The earth-orbit-rendezvous model of sending off two rocket stacks to mate in space and head off to the moon and beyond is again a fatal compromise in an era of tight budgeting. Off the top of my head, I can see the immediate problems of sucessfully launching two inter-connected missions days apart and then have them join-up in space. They could probably pull it off when money was no object like in the '60s space race, but not in this era of record deficits and belt-tightening.

And what are we going to do on the moon anyway? There is absolutely nothing compelling there that we should go back for, except for some shrill voices screaming about how the Chinese are going to get there before the U.S. (the U.S. has been there, done that, duh!).

I think NASA should stick to robotic space missions until it comes up with an industrially replicable human transporter and not another prohibitively expensive, hand-made design.

It looks like the Obama team thinking is going in the right direction and telling NASA that eating grits once in a while is good for it. Of course the brahminical NASA sages cannot do with anything less than caviar, as usual.

Read more about it:

Does Obama Want to Ground NASA's Next Moon Mission?
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
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Makes sense. Now that the government is a health care factory, there's no money for Neil Armstrong moments.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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I dunno... he wants to get rid of an engineer and put in a PR person.

edit: maybe
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
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Originally posted by: winnar111
Makes sense. Now that the government is a health care factory, there's no money for Neil Armstrong moments.

Nice troll.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Russia is still flying the Soyuz, which is derivative of Korolev's 50 year old R-7 design that sent Sputnik and later Gagarin to space, and also is "borrowed" by the Chinese for their space program.
We don't have money for a Moonshot or a Mars shot. It's simply reckless to spend that kind of money given the financial shape we are in now.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
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My abridged opinion: Good move. Humans are pretty fragile; sending us out and about is quite expensive. Once robots start to give diminishing returns, look more seriously to human exploration.

More later.
Unless DrPizza stops in; he's likely to make a lot of good points that I'd say anyway. :)

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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Here is the thing. The shuttle needs to be scrapped, so we still need to develop heavy lift. Without it we will be stuck in LEO....

 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: winnar111
Makes sense. Now that the government is a health care factory, there's no money for Neil Armstrong moments.

Remember that the Neil Armstrong moment had to do with putting the first human foot on a celestial object, a breathtaking moment for mankind. It sorta became ho-hum after that.
 

libs0n

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May 16, 2005
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This article is inaccurate; a very poor piece of one sided reporting. One, Obama and his transition team are not seeking to cancel moon missions, but are simply looking into the state of affairs at NASA before they take command and appoint a new administrator. The problem is that this Griffin fellow is a complete managerial buffoon and his preferred implementation is crap; its sustainment rests upon no one actually impartially judging it against competing systems. It's basically a giant pork program that is bursting its planned budget at the seams and has severe technological problems; a terrible road for your nation's space agency to commit itself to. Another thing, the claim that EELVs are unsafe is unfounded; in fact a few years before he became administrator, Griffin himself extolled their virtues as a future human launch system before congress when he didn't have an interest on ramming his own pet project into fruition. They will be safer, come online sooner, and be cheaper to implement than the Ares 1 rocket that Griffin favours.

Look for Obama and his team to continue the moon program, but if you're lucky, with better systems than either of the Ares rockets, and with better management at NASA. Also, there's this myth that this will be uber expensive, in reality NASA's budget is about 17 billion a year, compared with, lets say, the 600 billion dollar military or the recent bailouts. It's not this massive savings that can be redirected elsewhere, and if done right, can be both an inspirational benefit to your nation as well as advance the state of the space industry.
 

tvarad

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Jun 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: charrison
Here is the thing. The shuttle needs to be scrapped, so we still need to develop heavy lift. Without it we will be stuck in LEO....

The technology to travel beyond LEO exists, but the technology to do so reliably, safely and cost-effectively is what is missing. And Ares simply does not meet those requirements.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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Originally posted by: tvarad
Originally posted by: charrison
Here is the thing. The shuttle needs to be scrapped, so we still need to develop heavy lift. Without it we will be stuck in LEO....

The technology to travel beyond LEO exists, but the technology to do so reliably, safely and cost-effectively is what is missing. And Ares simply does not meet those requirements.

I agree with what you are saying, but we still have to rebuild something that we not longer have. That takes time and money to do. Was Ares the right and path and will it get there is the more interesting question.
 

libs0n

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May 16, 2005
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Actually, I wouldn't say that heavy lift is a necessary component. Most of what comprises a lunar mission is propellant; the defueled components can easily be lifted into orbit on existing boosters. Then launch your propellant on separate flights and fuel them at a fuel depot. No need for new rockets or their expense; increased utilization of existing launcher infrastructure, as well as the establishment of a new large payload market for new entrants to compete for. Much better, quicker and cheaper.
 

libs0n

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May 16, 2005
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The space elevator is a fantasy at this point; you could spend more than a hundred billion on it and achieve nothing.
 

Freshgeardude

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Jul 31, 2006
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Yet another thing Obama is planning to do that no one likes. good job voting for him. He IS ruining the American dream. and this is another one, because when I finish high school and college, I want to become an astronaut, and he wants to take away my dream!
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: libs0n
The space elevator is a fantasy at this point; you could spend more than a hundred billion on it and achieve nothing.

I dunno how nothing.. you could probably get an elevator that goes pretty high..
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
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Originally posted by: tvarad
And what are we going to do on the moon anyway? There is absolutely nothing compelling there that we should go back for, except for some shrill voices screaming about how the Chinese are going to get there before the U.S. (the U.S. has been there, done that, duh!).

actually the moon is an ideal place for a telescope that could make the Hubble look like a toy.

MIT is already working on it.
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,849
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Originally posted by: freshgeardude
Yet another thing Obama is planning to do that no one likes. good job voting for him. He IS ruining the American dream. and this is another one, because when I finish high school and college, I want to become an astronaut, and he wants to take away my dream!

is my sarcasm meter broken? Obama has been very vocal about his support of space exploration even when it is not favorable with the general population. the space shuttle program is near its end and we have no immediate replacement. NASA has struggled under the GWB administration and it is a shame.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
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Originally posted by: alien42
Originally posted by: tvarad
And what are we going to do on the moon anyway? There is absolutely nothing compelling there that we should go back for, except for some shrill voices screaming about how the Chinese are going to get there before the U.S. (the U.S. has been there, done that, duh!).

actually the moon is an ideal place for a telescope that could make the Hubble look like a toy.

MIT is already working on it.

ANd there are some earth based telescopes being designed that would put hubble to shame as well. It would have been better to just let hubble fall out of sky and a send new better replacement up. But congress forced nasa to repair to it and more than it would have cost to build a new one....
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
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Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: alien42
Originally posted by: tvarad
And what are we going to do on the moon anyway? There is absolutely nothing compelling there that we should go back for, except for some shrill voices screaming about how the Chinese are going to get there before the U.S. (the U.S. has been there, done that, duh!).

actually the moon is an ideal place for a telescope that could make the Hubble look like a toy.

MIT is already working on it.

ANd there are some earth based telescopes being designed that would put hubble to shame as well. It would have been better to just let hubble fall out of sky and a send new better replacement up. But congress forced nasa to repair to it and more than it would have cost to build a new one....

the telescopic potential on the moon dwarfs that on earth due to the atmospheric difference.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: winnar111
Makes sense. Now that the government is a health care factory, there's no money for Neil Armstrong moments.

Way to troll. Socialism is socialism. It doesn't matter if it's health care, space, or war.

Originally posted by: libs0n
The space elevator is a fantasy at this point; you could spend more than a hundred billion on it and achieve nothing.

The problem is materials. When you find something with the necessary tensile strength, let us know.

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
Yet another thing Obama is planning to do that no one likes. good job voting for him. He IS ruining the American dream. and this is another one, because when I finish high school and college, I want to become an astronaut, and he wants to take away my dream!

Don't depend on the govt, start your own space agency if you want to live your dream.
 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: alien42
Originally posted by: tvarad
And what are we going to do on the moon anyway? There is absolutely nothing compelling there that we should go back for, except for some shrill voices screaming about how the Chinese are going to get there before the U.S. (the U.S. has been there, done that, duh!).

actually the moon is an ideal place for a telescope that could make the Hubble look like a toy.

MIT is already working on it.

Indeed, we could do great things in space, but only if we can get to it in a routine manner and not with boosters and manned modules made with band-aid and paper-clips. which is what Constellation is. NASA is still in the Wright-flier equivalent era of rocketry when the thinking requires, at the very least, an all-metal DC-3 equivalent of space transport. Remember that NASA promised routine manned access to space with the Shuttle but never delivered.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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Good. I've thought for a long time this is a vast and terrible waste of money. "Fringe" science has its place but its budgets need to stay in check because the benefits are often dubious.