Obama says "Everybody should be bilingual, or everybody should be trilingual."

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Where did he say you had too?

He didn't, but he stated that he STARTS with the premise that everyone SHOULD. That is what is at issue here for me. I believe his premise is flawed and believe any action he takes on the issue would be flawed due to his faulty premise.

It is your own faulty view of the world if someone making a suggestion makes you feel as if you need too. If you are so concerned with action than vote accordingly, as far what you think is a flawed premise does not mean it is. From a purely logical standpoint academically you are in the wrong. From a emotional "what my gut tells me" standpoint, you might be correct, who knows.

Nope, my position is based on logic - not emotion. Also, I will vote accordingly and will make sure others understand that he starts with a faulty premise.

Your logic is not backed up by anything more than your emotions though. "I don't feel that this is needed because I think.."

Meanwhile hundred of studies show the benefits of multiple languages and even hard logic such as "If you know a second language Bilingual jobs open up for you" contradict you.

You can vote anyway you want of course it doesn't change the fact the US will more than likely be offering Spanish classes no matter which candidate comes to power because both of them look favorably towards immigration.

And again, just because it supposedly opens doors to some - doesn't equal "should". And actually it really should be "can open doors" not "it does open doors". My wife learned french and it's done nothing. I know many who took a foreign language and it has done nothing for them. No doubt it *CAN* be a good thing for some but again that doesn't mean the premise of "should" is correct.

It does open doors for you. Its your choice to pursue those avenues though :roll: The premise of should is correct.

:roll: No, it most certainly is not. There is no reason that everyone "should" learn more than one language just like there is no reason that everyone "should" learn electronics, programming, or karate. CAN you - sure. Will any of those open doors? Sure, but just because they might open doors doesn't mean you "should" learn each of them. sheesh.

There is a substantial difference between learning another language and learning electronics/programming/karate. Let's see if you can figure it out before I break it down for you :roll:

Nope, very little difference. knowing multiple languages is a skill just as the 3 things I mentioned. 1 can even be considered a "communication" method just like another language. I think you, like some others, think that just because you think it's "good" or can open doors means that one "should" learn them. I do not. I have no qualms with people doing it, but to claim they "should" is more than a bit misguided and elitist. People who know more than one language aren't any better than others the have learned different skills.

 

[Mill]

You people are fucking stupid. What if Obama had said: "everyone should be nice." Would you all jump to the conclusion that he wants to disband the military and take guns away? Obama did not say he was going to force anyone to do anything. He made a statement about what would happen in an ideal world. That fact that you knee-jerkers turn it into something about illegals or as a tool to subvert our children just cracks me up. I'm close to thinking that democracy itself will be the downfall of this country. Too many stupid people these days.

There is a point that has yet to be answered by any of you anti-bilingual troglodytes, and it has been raised several times in this thread by more than one poster. What negative comes with learning another language? Name one, name two. Hell, at least try...

In my experience, people bullshit a lot about how many languages they speak and how well they speak them. I use Spanish everyday either at home, school, or in social situations. Right now I am living in Buenos Aires and attending a University here. I can converse and understand almost any topic whether written or verbal, but I would not consider myself fluent. Fluency is difficult to achieve, however, fluency is not needed to obtain a benefit from a second or third language.

Last year I spent nearly two months outside of the U.S. in a variety of different countries. This year I will spend a good 3 months away. One thing I have noticed... those that are so against learning a language or culture are the ones that get taken advantage of or whom require a "sitter" when abroad. I see you folks everyday -- I watch you stumble around and you don't even know it!!!

Just by knowing Spanish decently well and a little bit of German (by no means can I converse very well), whole new worlds have been opened to me. I can read papers, books, and talk to people I'd have never met or understood. I can obtain and use products that an English only speaker would not be able to get or use.

Yes, English is a global language -- and a very important business language. To say, however, that a coffee farmer from a finca in Colombia is going to speak it is a bit of a stretch. You will find that many people can understand or speak a little bit of English, but a complex transaction would be a bit much. By all means... keep believing you only need to learn English. I will get a better deal (and a quicker deal) by speaking someone's language while you are still trying to figure out how you managed to insult your clients so badly.

I watch English only speakers get screwed on a daily basis when transacting with Spanish-speaking businesses. Let's not act like English-speaking companies are not guilty of the same.

The idea that education or knowledge rots the brain is a very cancerous and dangerous form of thought. That same logic is what leads to terrorism in the Middle East, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, poverty, and a plethora of other problems that affect this world.

Remain stupid and dumb, and let your kids suffer with the fate that comes from having parents that believing education and cultural awareness are bad things. I'm sure there are plenty of future adults that are currently learning 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th languages -- children that have been taught that a thirst for knowledge is one of the greatest gifts a person can have. Perhaps one day that can give your kids a job doing their gardening or walking their dog.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Where did he say you had too?

He didn't, but he stated that he STARTS with the premise that everyone SHOULD. That is what is at issue here for me. I believe his premise is flawed and believe any action he takes on the issue would be flawed due to his faulty premise.

It is your own faulty view of the world if someone making a suggestion makes you feel as if you need too. If you are so concerned with action than vote accordingly, as far what you think is a flawed premise does not mean it is. From a purely logical standpoint academically you are in the wrong. From a emotional "what my gut tells me" standpoint, you might be correct, who knows.

Nope, my position is based on logic - not emotion. Also, I will vote accordingly and will make sure others understand that he starts with a faulty premise.

Your logic is not backed up by anything more than your emotions though. "I don't feel that this is needed because I think.."

Meanwhile hundred of studies show the benefits of multiple languages and even hard logic such as "If you know a second language Bilingual jobs open up for you" contradict you.

You can vote anyway you want of course it doesn't change the fact the US will more than likely be offering Spanish classes no matter which candidate comes to power because both of them look favorably towards immigration.

And again, just because it supposedly opens doors to some - doesn't equal "should". And actually it really should be "can open doors" not "it does open doors". My wife learned french and it's done nothing. I know many who took a foreign language and it has done nothing for them. No doubt it *CAN* be a good thing for some but again that doesn't mean the premise of "should" is correct.

It does open doors for you. Its your choice to pursue those avenues though :roll: The premise of should is correct.

:roll: No, it most certainly is not. There is no reason that everyone "should" learn more than one language just like there is no reason that everyone "should" learn electronics, programming, or karate. CAN you - sure. Will any of those open doors? Sure, but just because they might open doors doesn't mean you "should" learn each of them. sheesh.

There is a substantial difference between learning another language and learning electronics/programming/karate. Let's see if you can figure it out before I break it down for you :roll:

Nope, very little difference. knowing multiple languages is a skill just as the 3 things I mentioned. 1 can even be considered a "communication" method just like another language. I think you, like some others, think that just because you think it's "good" or can open doors means that one "should" learn them. I do not. I have no qualms with people doing it, but to claim they "should" is more than a bit misguided and elitist. People who know more than one language aren't any better than others the have learned different skills.

The faulty premise lies with you. A dearth of communication skills will affect all facets of life and the benefits of second and third languages are much broader than someone who knows how to install a hot water heater. Last time I checked, hot water heater installers do not get paid big bucks to consult or fly around the world to work.

There are specific trade skills and then there are broad based skills. Everyone has to communicate, understand basic math, read, write, and understand a least a primitive level of science.

You call it being an elitist. Sir, I do not have a problem with that at all. If wanting to be a well-rounded and balanced individual is being elitist then please consider me to be one. Your label does not affect me in the slightest, but an inability to communicate in a business meeting, understand a cultural POV, or to broaden your horizons will have a massive affect on you.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Where did he say you had too?

He didn't, but he stated that he STARTS with the premise that everyone SHOULD. That is what is at issue here for me. I believe his premise is flawed and believe any action he takes on the issue would be flawed due to his faulty premise.

It is your own faulty view of the world if someone making a suggestion makes you feel as if you need too. If you are so concerned with action than vote accordingly, as far what you think is a flawed premise does not mean it is. From a purely logical standpoint academically you are in the wrong. From a emotional "what my gut tells me" standpoint, you might be correct, who knows.

Nope, my position is based on logic - not emotion. Also, I will vote accordingly and will make sure others understand that he starts with a faulty premise.

Your logic is not backed up by anything more than your emotions though. "I don't feel that this is needed because I think.."

Meanwhile hundred of studies show the benefits of multiple languages and even hard logic such as "If you know a second language Bilingual jobs open up for you" contradict you.

You can vote anyway you want of course it doesn't change the fact the US will more than likely be offering Spanish classes no matter which candidate comes to power because both of them look favorably towards immigration.

And again, just because it supposedly opens doors to some - doesn't equal "should". And actually it really should be "can open doors" not "it does open doors". My wife learned french and it's done nothing. I know many who took a foreign language and it has done nothing for them. No doubt it *CAN* be a good thing for some but again that doesn't mean the premise of "should" is correct.

This goes back to people bullshitting about their educational attainment. Lots of people like to say they speak French or Spanish because they took a few classes in HS or college.

Being able to say that you want another beer in Spanish or that you know basic food name doesn't mean you have learned a language. Can that be useful? Sure, but that is not what most of us are talking about. We are saying that having the ability to effectively communicate, understand, read, and experience another language and culture provides you with new areas of the world that you didn't even know about. It doesn't take a WHOLE lot, but a few semesters won't do it unless someone is really serious about it.

Besides, it all goes back to one simple thing. Kids can learn a language up until about the age of 16-18 very quickly. After that it becomes increasingly difficult. Why in God's name would you NOT want your kids to learn a language? This isn't electronics school or karate class. Having your kids became bi or tri lingual is extremely cheap, and in the long run the economics of it will make it so that they are able to earn a LOT more than they could of by picking a more specific (and less useful) skill.

 

[Throckmorton]

I can't believe the conservative-radio-show-listening Ron Paul voting idiots in this tread tried to turn bilingualism into a BAD thing.


What is with CAD guy's elitism accusation? Uhh correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Barack himself monolingual just like most of us?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: RichardE

Where did he say you had too?

He didn't, but he stated that he STARTS with the premise that everyone SHOULD. That is what is at issue here for me. I believe his premise is flawed and believe any action he takes on the issue would be flawed due to his faulty premise.

It is your own faulty view of the world if someone making a suggestion makes you feel as if you need too. If you are so concerned with action than vote accordingly, as far what you think is a flawed premise does not mean it is. From a purely logical standpoint academically you are in the wrong. From a emotional "what my gut tells me" standpoint, you might be correct, who knows.

Nope, my position is based on logic - not emotion. Also, I will vote accordingly and will make sure others understand that he starts with a faulty premise.

Your logic is not backed up by anything more than your emotions though. "I don't feel that this is needed because I think.."

Meanwhile hundred of studies show the benefits of multiple languages and even hard logic such as "If you know a second language Bilingual jobs open up for you" contradict you.

You can vote anyway you want of course it doesn't change the fact the US will more than likely be offering Spanish classes no matter which candidate comes to power because both of them look favorably towards immigration.

And again, just because it supposedly opens doors to some - doesn't equal "should". And actually it really should be "can open doors" not "it does open doors". My wife learned french and it's done nothing. I know many who took a foreign language and it has done nothing for them. No doubt it *CAN* be a good thing for some but again that doesn't mean the premise of "should" is correct.

This goes back to people bullshitting about their educational attainment. Lots of people like to say they speak French or Spanish because they took a few classes in HS or college.

Being able to say that you want another beer in Spanish or that you know basic food name doesn't mean you have learned a language. Can that be useful? Sure, but that is not what most of us are talking about. We are saying that having the ability to effectively communicate, understand, read, and experience another language and culture provides you with new areas of the world that you didn't even know about. It doesn't take a WHOLE lot, but a few semesters won't do it unless someone is really serious about it.

Besides, it all goes back to one simple thing. Kids can learn a language up until about the age of 16-18 very quickly. After that it becomes increasingly difficult. Why in God's name would you NOT want your kids to learn a language? This isn't electronics school or karate class. Having your kids became bi or tri lingual is extremely cheap, and in the long run the economics of it will make it so that they are able to earn a LOT more than they could of by picking a more specific (and less useful) skill.

Oh, I agree. It'd have to be more than just a couple years of "class" to be able to learn it effectively - thus half my bitch about some schools mandating it. However, there are MANY things kids can learn very quickly - karate being one of them. My cousins started very young, yet their fathers never really got the hang of it. So yes, this same old "kids can learn it" thing may apply to a 2nd language but that still doesn't mean they "should". Just because a few here do know multiple languages doesn't mean we all "should". THAT is the point - it's stupid to suggest we all "should". Use "can" and I'd be fine with it, because I'd more than support offering it up to those who want to - just stop with the "premise" of "should" because it's just an opinion.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
I can't believe the conservative-radio-show-listening Ron Paul voting idiots in this tread tried to turn bilingualism into a BAD thing.


What is with CAD guy's elitism accusation? Uhh correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Barack himself monolingual just like most of us?

I've never stated it's a "bad thing".

The elitism comes in when people try to tell us that we "should" .... as if they know what's best.

 

[piasabird]

How about a law that says you can not turn down a person for a job based on their inability to speak a foreign language. i.e. you can not require employees to speek spanish. This should apply to all jobs, except those jobs like transator. In other words you can not turn down someone for employment say at McDonalds or Wall-mart if they dont speak spanish. Job preference for bilingual employees should be illegal except in cases where the job is specifically for a translator position. Let the restraunt post a menu in spanish with the english on the other side so the people know how to order.

I thought it was fun learning to order in Italian when I was in Italy in the 70's.

It is not the job of the United States to speak spanish to foreigners to make them feel at home. If they want to live here they can just learn English. No one is forcing them to move here, and no one is prohibiting them from leaving.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: RichardE
He has probally read some of the hundreds of studies showing children who pick up a second language are usually smarter overall through life.

I find it funny that everyone is up in arms because hes making suggestions for them to better there lives. He is not suggesting passing law to force you, but offering incentives for you to do this.

"Oh Mai gawd, this black man has da nerve to say I shoulda be bilingual! mai god, what nerve!"

He never told anyone what they can eat, what the temperature should be set at, driving as well as "you have to learn two languages". It says alot about you when you get so emotional over someone offering things that could better not just you but the country as well.

/thread

its pretty sad that a Mexican has more pride in Mexico while living in the US than you do as a American living in the us.

Can say the same thing about Italians, Irish, Chinese, etc...

 

[NeoV]

saying you "should" try to make children better learners isn't elitism - it's common sense

People in America should really try to understand that there are things done elsewhere in the world - and, GASP - they might be doing some things better/smarter than we do them here.

There are mandarin/english elementary school programs popping up all over the us - and they fill up as fast as they open - and those students will be fluent, not just the "my wife took 2 years of French in HS" 'learned' - and those students will have job possibilities we can't even imagine right now.


This nitpicking everything Obama says/does is really getting old, fast. I wish the election was over already, but it's going to be long summer of senseless bickering.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: NeoV
saying you "should" try to make children better learners isn't elitism - it's common sense

People in America should really try to understand that there are things done elsewhere in the world - and, GASP - they might be doing some things better/smarter than we do them here.

There are mandarin/english elementary school programs popping up all over the us - and they fill up as fast as they open - and those students will be fluent, not just the "my wife took 2 years of French in HS" 'learned' - and those students will have job possibilities we can't even imagine right now.


This nitpicking everything Obama says/does is really getting old, fast. I wish the election was over already, but it's going to be long summer of senseless bickering.

And that's fine - like I said - they *CAN* do that if they wish but the problem comes in when people start using "should" as a premise.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: piasabird
It is not the job of the United States to speak spanish to foreigners to make them feel at home. If they want to live here they can just learn English. No one is forcing them to move here, and no one is prohibiting them from leaving.

I agree we should make efforts to teach immigrants English and to culturally integrate them into our society as much as possible. The irony here, though, is that in countries like Mexico English is becoming more and more predominant. Mexicans are having trouble finding jobs in Mexico that don't require them to speak English.

Basically, this language issue is a two-way street which many Americans refuse to recognize.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: NeoV
saying you "should" try to make children better learners isn't elitism - it's common sense

People in America should really try to understand that there are things done elsewhere in the world - and, GASP - they might be doing some things better/smarter than we do them here.

There are mandarin/english elementary school programs popping up all over the us - and they fill up as fast as they open - and those students will be fluent, not just the "my wife took 2 years of French in HS" 'learned' - and those students will have job possibilities we can't even imagine right now.


This nitpicking everything Obama says/does is really getting old, fast. I wish the election was over already, but it's going to be long summer of senseless bickering.

And that's fine - like I said - they *CAN* do that if they wish but the problem comes in when people start using "should" as a premise.

CSG -

A hypothetical situation:

Obama Stmt #1 : Everyone should not smoke.

Obama Stmt #2 : Everyone should learn a second language.


We already know you don't agree with Stmt #2.
Do you agree with Stmt #1?


Stmt #1 is a statement against a known negative activity.
Stmt #2 is a statement for a known positive activity (or at least a neutral activity).

Both are suggestions with a slight bit of emphasis. Neither are imperative commands. I don't see what your issue with either is.

 

[allies]

?? ??? ?? ??..

Un pequeno espanol hablo.

I speak English, getting decent at Korean, and speak a tiny bit of Spanish... I think being bi or trilingual would be fantastic... hell I'd like to learn as many languages as I could. F chemical engineering 😛

Edit: America++ for the ignorant people who think learning a second or third language is unimportant.

Edit 2: I'm 99% white... mostly English, German, French, throw in some Irish and 1% Native American 😛

 

[Rio Rebel]

Originally posted by: Citrix
first off if you dont speak english i dont waste my time. second, English is the language of commerce so if i should ever (which wont happen) need to purchase 100 tons of coffee beans from columbia im pretty sure the guy im talking to will speak english.

I just wanted us all to get the chance to revel in the profound ignorance of this statement once more before we go back to the mundane encounters of our lives.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel

Originally posted by: Citrix
first off if you dont speak english i dont waste my time. second, English is the language of commerce so if i should ever (which wont happen) need to purchase 100 tons of coffee beans from columbia im pretty sure the guy im talking to will speak english.

I just wanted us all to get the chance to revel in the profound ignorance of this statement once more before we go back to the mundane encounters of our lives.

I think a lot of people in the US underestimate what knowing another language or two can make for your life.

When I started living most of the year here, I noticed there's something peculiar in the way most Americans look at culture and knowledge: they often focus on the mechanical and practical implications of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love you guys, I'm just trying to express my perception of the very mindset that probably is behind the lack of interest many people here have for other languages.

So, one says "it's great to be bilingual" and many answer "what for? English is the language of business".

As you can see the idea behind this is that you only learn something that has a "mechanical" use. People ask in fact "when am I going to use this other language and what will it do for me". They imagine it would be worth if they can use it in business or to get a better job and so on...

Well, knowing more languages does much more than that. It really opens a new world, meaning not only you can in fact "do things" with it, but more importantly it will change the way you think, your capacity of understanding the world around you, link pieces of information and construct new meanings on things you already knew.

A language is not only the set of grammar rules and words you need to order a meal at the restaurant, it's the key to a whole world of literature, philosophy, art, culture. And this has no price.

In fact, the lack of knowledge most very educated people in the US have is in my opinion behind the idea "Americans are ignorant" so many foreign people believe. What they actually say when they say this is "even those who have a lot of technical and specific knowledge in their field, still lack a general well-rounded cultural depth".

I have a friend of mine who is a lawyer, and went to an Ivy League law school. When we went together to the movie theater for Luc Besson's Jean of Arc he didn't know it was based on a real story, because he didn't know who Jean of Arc was. He has problems locating Denmark on a map, and wouldn't distinguish Roman architecture from Gothic architecture.

He is a great guy, a great lawyer, and most definitely a very educated individual. Yet many people outside of the US would consider him to be ignorant because all his knowledge is very specific to what his job is. You would be hard pressed to find a lawyer with a graduate degree from a top university with such a restrict view of the world and such a scarce knowledge of history in most countries of the world.

Had he studied another European language, he would have probably also studied some of that country's history and culture, read some of its literature, and studied some of the art history peculiar to that country.

In my experience few things contribute to the width of your cultural horizons more than learning a new language. So maybe the key is stopping asking "what will this do for my career?" and starting asking "what will this do for my life?".

Studying Latin or ancient Greek makes it possible for you to read Seneca or Plato, which might not have immediate effects on your career as a surgeon but for sure will have an effect to your life. In the same way studying French or German will let you in a new world where you can get a new and more profound understanding of Kant's philosophy, or the Impressionists' art, or the history of the sacred roman empire, and Italian will make you understand why the Renaissance is the cradle of western civilization.

And all this might or might not have an effect on your future salary (chances are it will) but for sure it'll make you smarter. A lot smarter. And in my opinion it should be enough.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Well, he's right that everyone should learn foreign languages. It's extremely good for you from a cognitive/developmental standpoint, as well as for world culture and understanding. However, the point of them is just to develop mentally, and to gain insight into foreign culture (and perhaps be better equipped to travel abroad without being an egocentric American expecting everyone to speak English).

Within the borders of America (or any nation) there should be only one official language (in our case, English), and it should be the only language anything is ever done in period. Anything else is extremely inefficient and causes major hassles.

 

[SlingXShot]

Today HS and Colleges you still have to learn Spanish, which is extremely annoying but everyone has to.

 

[Thump553]

Originally posted by: SlingXShot
Today HS and Colleges you still have to learn Spanish, which is extremely annoying but everyone has to.

To my knowledge, it's been that way in my state since at least the mid 60's, and probably a good deal longer (French, Spanish or Latin). Two years of a language to graduate high school, three for college. Languages are my downfall so I stuggled through a three year of Spanish in HS (at a D average) just so I wouldn't have to take it in college.

I still find it incredible people are getting bent out of shape about this.

 

[Thump553]

Originally posted by: SlingXShot
Today HS and Colleges you still have to learn Spanish, which is extremely annoying but everyone has to.

To my knowledge, it's been that way in my state since at least the mid 60's, and probably a good deal longer (French, Spanish or Latin). Two years of a language to graduate high school, three for college. Languages are my downfall so I stuggled through a three year of Spanish in HS (at a D average) just so I wouldn't have to take it in college.

I still find it incredible people are getting bent out of shape about this.