Obama?s recession remedy: Tax the poor!

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
One of the other chilling aspects of all this is that they know that they can up the costs of cigarettes by $.60 a pack and it will not significantly reduce the number of people buying those packs, even when most of them are too comfortably afford it in the first place.
It points to smoking being less of a choice then most want to accept.

How does the addictive nature of nicotine have anything to do with the choice aspect of this issue? That sounds more like a willpower and priority issue to me rather than a choice issue. Completely different.

You say you smoke. How often have you tried to quit?
I've been smoke free for 5 years, and I stuggle with it every day.
I've had long talks with my father, who has been smoke free for 20 years, and he struggles with it. There is only so much willpower in a person, not everyone can just quit.

to each his own, i smoked for a decade before quitting cold turkey almost four years ago and i never struggle with it, not even when drunk. nicotine is about as physically addictive as caffeine or chocolate.

as for HR2 - :thumbsup:

For you that may be true...but everyones different and a little tolerance and compassion for those people who are not as strong as you might be a good thing...just a thought.

I smoked for 20 years and quit a million times?.pure torture. It's now been 19 years, 13 days, 13 hours and 47 minutes since my last cigarette and it amazes me that I still want want every once in a while. BTW SMOGZINN...gratz on 5 years!

i have compassion for people who are seriously addicted to hard drugs that are life threatening when you quit, but not cigarettes.

Good for you...no compassion for human suffering unless it's life threatening...a man of true principle...you should be proud. :roll:

 

[NeoV]

so only poor people smoke?

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
One of the other chilling aspects of all this is that they know that they can up the costs of cigarettes by $.60 a pack and it will not significantly reduce the number of people buying those packs, even when most of them are too comfortably afford it in the first place.
It points to smoking being less of a choice then most want to accept.

How does the addictive nature of nicotine have anything to do with the choice aspect of this issue? That sounds more like a willpower and priority issue to me rather than a choice issue. Completely different.

You say you smoke. How often have you tried to quit?
I've been smoke free for 5 years, and I stuggle with it every day.
I've had long talks with my father, who has been smoke free for 20 years, and he struggles with it. There is only so much willpower in a person, not everyone can just quit.

Yes, and it was ridiculously simple. All I had to do was refuse to buy them. I realize not everyone has it that easy, but it is not like there is a gun being pointed at your head either.

The choice doesn't change at all. It is as simple as A or B. Nicotine or a tax increase. Assuming you are a pack a day smoker, that increase will cost you an additional $365 a year or approximately $30/mo or $7/week more than what you pay now to smoke. That isn't exactly a life altering situation for the vast majority of Americans and if you happen to be one of the Americans where it really makes that much of a difference then you are either living beyond your means or you make such little money that you shouldn't be wasting it on smokes in the first place.

Of all the tax increases this country and our states impose on us regularly, I would say that this one is anything but a big deal in comparison. Again, I will be paying it too.

That's my problem with this tax. Out of sight out of mind for a lot of people however it is just another tax. Am I the only one who sees a problem with us coming to the conclusion that 'meh it's just another tax we should be used to it by now' mentality?

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
One of the other chilling aspects of all this is that they know that they can up the costs of cigarettes by $.60 a pack and it will not significantly reduce the number of people buying those packs, even when most of them are too comfortably afford it in the first place.
It points to smoking being less of a choice then most want to accept.

How does the addictive nature of nicotine have anything to do with the choice aspect of this issue? That sounds more like a willpower and priority issue to me rather than a choice issue. Completely different.

You say you smoke. How often have you tried to quit?
I've been smoke free for 5 years, and I stuggle with it every day.
I've had long talks with my father, who has been smoke free for 20 years, and he struggles with it. There is only so much willpower in a person, not everyone can just quit.

to each his own, i smoked for a decade before quitting cold turkey almost four years ago and i never struggle with it, not even when drunk. nicotine is about as physically addictive as caffeine or chocolate.

as for HR2 - :thumbsup:

For you that may be true...but everyones different and a little tolerance and compassion for those people who are not as strong as you might be a good thing...just a thought.

I smoked for 20 years and quit a million times?.pure torture. It's now been 19 years, 13 days, 13 hours and 47 minutes since my last cigarette and it amazes me that I still want want every once in a while. BTW SMOGZINN...gratz on 5 years!

i have compassion for people who are seriously addicted to hard drugs that are life threatening when you quit, but not cigarettes.

Good for you...no compassion for human suffering unless it's life threatening...a man of true principle...you should be proud. :roll:

who the fuck are you to judge me? if you smoke cigarettes and can not take responsiblity for your own actions, why should i feel compassion?

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: xenolith

Originally posted by: Genx87
The only question I have is when they finally run smokers underground and out of town who will these prohibitionists target next?

I am going to guess

1. Drinkers
2. Fast Food eaters
3. Fat people

Not going to happen because:

1. Alcohol use is deemed to be healthy in moderation.
2. Not all fast food is unhealthy. Some health care officials now say many so-called "healthy" high processed wheat and cereal products are worse.
3. No. They should tax those things that we know cause people to be fat like soft drinks, sugar, and things very high in sugar.

I can't believe you typed point 3 right after point 1.

So it's OK to have a beer every so often, but the second you drink a soda you swell up 50 pounds and have to live in a trailer?

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Tax High Fructose Corn Syrup, that way almost every food product in the grocery store would shoot up in price.

The studies which people use to vilify HFCS were on pure fructose. HFCS is about 50:50 fructose to glucose...that is, almost exactly the same as regular table sugar.

The food is very seldom the problem. The AMOUNT of food, and more importantly the amount of exercise, is the problem.

 

[frostedflakes]

Meh. This sucks for the smokers, but I'm not a smoker so it's not something I'm very passionate about. Taxes are going to go up, it's inevitable. We need to pay for all this shit somehow.

The small govt people should be begging Democrats to raise taxes, maybe if the public actually had to pay for all the government programs they vote for they might fight against larger government. Deficit spending has shielded the public from the actual cost of big government spending.

 

[JSt0rm]

this is a tax on the stupid not the poor.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Yes, and it was ridiculously simple. All I had to do was refuse to buy them. I realize not everyone has it that easy, but it is not like there is a gun being pointed at your head either.

The choice doesn't change at all. It is as simple as A or B. Nicotine or a tax increase. Assuming you are a pack a day smoker, that increase will cost you an additional $365 a year or approximately $30/mo or $7/week more than what you pay now to smoke. That isn't exactly a life altering situation for the vast majority of Americans and if you happen to be one of the Americans where it really makes that much of a difference then you are either living beyond your means or you make such little money that you shouldn't be wasting it on smokes in the first place.

Of all the tax increases this country and our states impose on us regularly, I would say that this one is anything but a big deal in comparison. Again, I will be paying it too.

That's my problem with this tax. Out of sight out of mind for a lot of people however it is just another tax. Am I the only one who sees a problem with us coming to the conclusion that 'meh it's just another tax we should be used to it by now' mentality?

I would agree with you more if it wasn't for the fact that the money is going towards state health insurance for kids which is something that I personally want to see happen and I realize that the money needs to come from somewhere. If the funds were going towards the war in iraq or something I didn't support then I would probably have more of an issue, but that is not the case.

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
this is a tax on the stupid not the poor.

Nope. This is not a tax on the stupid or the poor. This is a tax on people who smoke. Smoking doesn't make you stupid. Smoking means you are a person who chooses to smoke and that's that.

 

[BoberFett]

Internet access needs about a 200% tax.

 

[JSt0rm]

They need to tax fast food as well.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: xenolith

Originally posted by: Genx87
The only question I have is when they finally run smokers underground and out of town who will these prohibitionists target next?

I am going to guess

1. Drinkers
2. Fast Food eaters
3. Fat people

Not going to happen because:

1. Alcohol use is deemed to be healthy in moderation.
2. Not all fast food is unhealthy. Some health care officials now say many so-called "healthy" high processed wheat and cereal products are worse.
3. No. They should tax those things that we know cause people to be fat like soft drinks, sugar, and things very high in sugar.

Yeah and 35 years ago when the cigarette brigade started they claimed it was only for warning signs. Now we are being introduced to 3rd hand smoke and intrusion in our homes.

That said

1. They dont care. Alcohol related deaths will be their reason. Just look at BAC laws in this nation. .08 and many want it reduced to .04 or less.
2. Fast food will be easy to target due to its widespread consumption.
3. Well good to see you are agreeing with my prediction.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
One of the other chilling aspects of all this is that they know that they can up the costs of cigarettes by $.60 a pack and it will not significantly reduce the number of people buying those packs, even when most of them are too comfortably afford it in the first place.
It points to smoking being less of a choice then most want to accept.

How does the addictive nature of nicotine have anything to do with the choice aspect of this issue? That sounds more like a willpower and priority issue to me rather than a choice issue. Completely different.

You say you smoke. How often have you tried to quit?
I've been smoke free for 5 years, and I stuggle with it every day.
I've had long talks with my father, who has been smoke free for 20 years, and he struggles with it. There is only so much willpower in a person, not everyone can just quit.

to each his own, i smoked for a decade before quitting cold turkey almost four years ago and i never struggle with it, not even when drunk. nicotine is about as physically addictive as caffeine or chocolate.

as for HR2 - :thumbsup:

For you that may be true...but everyones different and a little tolerance and compassion for those people who are not as strong as you might be a good thing...just a thought.

I smoked for 20 years and quit a million times?.pure torture. It's now been 19 years, 13 days, 13 hours and 47 minutes since my last cigarette and it amazes me that I still want want every once in a while. BTW SMOGZINN...gratz on 5 years!

i have compassion for people who are seriously addicted to hard drugs that are life threatening when you quit, but not cigarettes.

Good for you...no compassion for human suffering unless it's life threatening...a man of true principle...you should be proud. :roll:

who the fuck are you to judge me? if you smoke cigarettes and can not take responsiblity for your own actions, why should i feel compassion?

And who are you to judge the sufferings of others? Look...when people hurt (self induced or not)...they hurt. I find your logic difficult to follow. A person who's addicted to hard drugs made a choice just as a person who's addicted to nicotene...but you made the distinction that you only feel compassion for those who had a potentially "life threatening" addiction. You know smokers also have a "life threatening" addiction...right? Your reasoning for selective compassion on this basis is totally arbitrary.

"...why should I feel compassion?" Good question...but that question is best answered by you.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Tax it to hell and back. It's of no value, it's sole purpose is to kill. If you choose to smoke, so be it, deal with the costs, financially and medically.

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
One of the other chilling aspects of all this is that they know that they can up the costs of cigarettes by $.60 a pack and it will not significantly reduce the number of people buying those packs, even when most of them are too comfortably afford it in the first place.
It points to smoking being less of a choice then most want to accept.

How does the addictive nature of nicotine have anything to do with the choice aspect of this issue? That sounds more like a willpower and priority issue to me rather than a choice issue. Completely different.

You say you smoke. How often have you tried to quit?
I've been smoke free for 5 years, and I stuggle with it every day.
I've had long talks with my father, who has been smoke free for 20 years, and he struggles with it. There is only so much willpower in a person, not everyone can just quit.

to each his own, i smoked for a decade before quitting cold turkey almost four years ago and i never struggle with it, not even when drunk. nicotine is about as physically addictive as caffeine or chocolate.

as for HR2 - :thumbsup:

For you that may be true...but everyones different and a little tolerance and compassion for those people who are not as strong as you might be a good thing...just a thought.

I smoked for 20 years and quit a million times?.pure torture. It's now been 19 years, 13 days, 13 hours and 47 minutes since my last cigarette and it amazes me that I still want want every once in a while. BTW SMOGZINN...gratz on 5 years!

i have compassion for people who are seriously addicted to hard drugs that are life threatening when you quit, but not cigarettes.

Good for you...no compassion for human suffering unless it's life threatening...a man of true principle...you should be proud. :roll:

who the fuck are you to judge me? if you smoke cigarettes and can not take responsiblity for your own actions, why should i feel compassion?

And who are you to judge the sufferings of others? Look...when people hurt (self induced or not)...they hurt. I find your logic difficult to follow. A person who's addicted to hard drugs made a choice just as a person who's addicted to nicotene...but you made the distinction that you only feel compassion for those who had a potentially "life threatening" addiction. You know smokers also have a "life threatening" addiction...right? Your reasoning for selective compassion on this basis is totally arbitrary.

"...why should I feel compassion?" Good question...but that question is best answered by you.

actually i stated "hard drugs that are life threatening when you quit". that is the HUGE difference between cigarettes and harder drugs. a Heroin addict can not quit their drug of choice without risking their life and that is not the case with cigarettes.

 

[PingSpike]

Guys, you wouldn't believe the cost of booze lately. I mean, with the economy I can barely afford to drink at work anymore. I'm really going to have to cut back, and this isn't easy because I'm an alcoholic.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Actually, quitting smoking is alot like quitting heroin, per http://www.sciencentral.com/vi.../nicotine-like-heroin/
I remember hearing alot how nicotine was just as addictive as heroin.

"Tobacco is as addictive as heroin (as a mood & behavior altering agent).
Nicotine is:
1000 X more potent than alcohol
10-100 X more potent than barbiturates
5-10 X more potent than cocaine or morphine
A 1-2 pack per day smoker takes 200-400 hits daily for years. This constant intake of a fast acting drug (which affects mood, concentration & performance).. eventually produces dependence.

Pressures to relapse are both behaviorally & pharmacologically triggered."
http://www1.umn.edu/perio/tobacco/nicaddct.html
I can empathize, as an ex-smoker myself, but my mantra for quitting was different than most, I just didn't want to pay billion dollar corporations to kill me and make money off of my death. It's stupid, but it worked for me.

This isn't a tax on the poor, or the rich, it's a tax on the addict. But smoking is a personal choice, and you know the risks going in. Tax it to 10.00 a pack, then we'll see a drop off. My only worry is how important the tobacco industry is to some states. Kinda like the auto industry to Detroit.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Folks, please don't forget Nicotine is addictive.

I know people who try really hard to stop.


Some people start because they have stressful lives and heard that it could help calm their nerves (urban myth).

Don't be so judgmental (if you're not being judgmental then there's no need to be upset @ this statement )

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
Actually, quitting smoking is alot like quitting heroin, per http://www.sciencentral.com/vi.../nicotine-like-heroin/
I remember hearing alot how nicotine was just as addictive as heroin.

"Tobacco is as addictive as heroin (as a mood & behavior altering agent).
Nicotine is:
1000 X more potent than alcohol
10-100 X more potent than barbiturates
5-10 X more potent than cocaine or morphine
A 1-2 pack per day smoker takes 200-400 hits daily for years. This constant intake of a fast acting drug (which affects mood, concentration & performance).. eventually produces dependence.

Pressures to relapse are both behaviorally & pharmacologically triggered."
http://www1.umn.edu/perio/tobacco/nicaddct.html
I can empathize, as an ex-smoker myself, but my mantra for quitting was different than most, I just didn't want to pay billion dollar corporations to kill me and make money off of my death. It's stupid, but it worked for me.

100% bullshit. take away a heroin addicts heroin and watch what happens, they can actually die. anyone who compares nicotine with any of the physically addictive hard drugs is a fool.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
Actually, quitting smoking is alot like quitting heroin, per http://www.sciencentral.com/vi.../nicotine-like-heroin/
I remember hearing alot how nicotine was just as addictive as heroin.

"Tobacco is as addictive as heroin (as a mood & behavior altering agent).
Nicotine is:
1000 X more potent than alcohol
10-100 X more potent than barbiturates
5-10 X more potent than cocaine or morphine
A 1-2 pack per day smoker takes 200-400 hits daily for years. This constant intake of a fast acting drug (which affects mood, concentration & performance).. eventually produces dependence.

Pressures to relapse are both behaviorally & pharmacologically triggered."
http://www1.umn.edu/perio/tobacco/nicaddct.html
I can empathize, as an ex-smoker myself, but my mantra for quitting was different than most, I just didn't want to pay billion dollar corporations to kill me and make money off of my death. It's stupid, but it worked for me.

100% bullshit. take away a heroin addicts heroin and watch what happens, they can actually die. anyone who compares nicotine with any of the physically addictive hard drugs is a fool.

100% linkage????

 

[gar3555]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: xenolith

Originally posted by: Genx87
The only question I have is when they finally run smokers underground and out of town who will these prohibitionists target next?

I am going to guess

1. Drinkers
2. Fast Food eaters
3. Fat people

Not going to happen because:

1. Alcohol use is deemed to be healthy in moderation.
2. Not all fast food is unhealthy. Some health care officials now say many so-called "healthy" high processed wheat and cereal products are worse.
3. No. They should tax those things that we know cause people to be fat like soft drinks, sugar, and things very high in sugar.

I can't believe you typed point 3 right after point 1.

So it's OK to have a beer every so often, but the second you drink a soda you swell up 50 pounds and have to live in a trailer?

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Tax High Fructose Corn Syrup, that way almost every food product in the grocery store would shoot up in price.

The studies which people use to vilify HFCS were on pure fructose. HFCS is about 50:50 fructose to glucose...that is, almost exactly the same as regular table sugar.

The food is very seldom the problem. The AMOUNT of food, and more importantly the amount of exercise, is the problem.

I agree, the government should levy the amount of food we can consume. We should have to stand in lines for this "bread"...Hey, we could call them bread lines. Since mostly only poor fat people would have to use them.

 

[brandonb]

The only thing that will be legal in a few years and isn't taxed to death is going to be going to work to pay taxes.

What a novel concept these Democrats come up with. The leaders of liberty.

 

[darkrisen2003]

What really gets to me is that as a smoker I have to deal with all the bashing and hate coming from people. I understand that my habbit is unhealthy and I choose to respect everyone and not smoke around those that do not smoke. I smoke outside when I am home due to my SO being a non smoker. I smoke outside when performing any kind of social outing in an area where non smokers will not suffer from it. Does that matter to the general public? Aparently not.

As a smoker we are forced to only smoke outside is designated areas which is fine but it seems thats not enough. Yes smoking is bad for us and we realize that. But there are other issues going on that are just as bad but they are overlooked because we are an easy target.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: alien42
actually i stated "hard drugs that are life threatening when you quit". that is the HUGE difference between cigarettes and harder drugs. a Heroin addict can not quit their drug of choice without risking their life and that is not the case with cigarettes.

Oh?so the only people that are worthy of your compassion are those addicts who have a very limited potential for loss of life if they quit their habit?doesn't matter about an addict's very real potential for loss of life if they "choose" to continue their addiction...got it. I see that you strongly believe that this distinction is justified and rational...I say otherwise.

Man?that's a damn good question "?why should I feel compassion?"

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I quit smoking a month ago. I am against this tax. I am also against anti-smokers. To those that dismiss how tough quitting is, FU.

 

[xenolith]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: xenolith

Originally posted by: Genx87
The only question I have is when they finally run smokers underground and out of town who will these prohibitionists target next?

I am going to guess

1. Drinkers
2. Fast Food eaters
3. Fat people

Not going to happen because:

1. Alcohol use is deemed to be healthy in moderation.
2. Not all fast food is unhealthy. Some health care officials now say many so-called "healthy" high processed wheat and cereal products are worse.
3. No. They should tax those things that we know cause people to be fat like soft drinks, sugar, and things very high in sugar.

I can't believe you typed point 3 right after point 1.

So it's OK to have a beer every so often, but the second you drink a soda you swell up 50 pounds and have to live in a trailer?.

Do people like you purposely try to be contentious here?

I guess I'll have to go into more detail of my meaning for the health ignorant;

Many studies show that a moderate, prolonged consumption of alcohol has verifiable health benefits that may outweigh its health risks. AFAIR, two to three daily servings is considered moderate, in particular, red wine or hard spirits. This is a well excepted fact among almost all reputable health professionals.

What studies show any verifiable health benefits in prolonged consumption of 2-3 servings of sugary soft drinks a day? There are none that I know of. But, there certainly is well substantiated evidence that doing so may increase your risk of acquiring type 2 diabetes, heart disease, and other very unpleasant diseases. You don't just wake up one morning and suddenly find 50lbs of fat around your middle. And, it takes a lot less abdominal fat than gaining 50lbs of said fat to start to induce its related health risks.

And, what the heck does people living in a trailer have to do with any of this?