Obama plans high-speed money shredder, made in China.

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rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
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If you've ever been to japan, you can literally go from one side of tokyo to the next (which is about 4 times the size of NYC) in less than an hour. or how about tokyo to kyoto in about 2 hours.

trains are great, they should have their place alongside cars and airplanes, but it's a shame that the right demonizes them simply because they perceive the left as obsessed with them.

It is not the actual train system that people have issues with. Do you realize how many flights a day there are from Boston to New York and vice versa? high speed trains would ease capacity. There are few options for increasing airline capacity. Basically the only option now is to make certain flights take off later. Everyone needs to travel on a business schedule and there is very little room left for those airports to handle more take off and landings during peak times.

It is the fact that such a system will cost billions, will never be able to charge enough to recoup its initial costs let alone enough to maintain operations, will be mismanaged, etc. etc. The only way people will be able to afford tickets is through government subsidies.

Those flights from New York to Boston would be a lot more affordable than a train ticket (without subsidies).

Airports get money because of taxes paid directly by users of the air system.
 
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Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
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It is the fact that such a system will cost billions, will never be able to charge enough to recoup its initial costs let alone enough to maintain operations, will be mismanaged, etc. etc. The only way people will be able to afford tickets is through government subsidies.

Those flights from New York to Boston would be a lot more affordable than a train ticket (without subsidies).

Airports get money because of taxes paid directly by users of the air system.
how can you know if it will be mismanaged etc. etc.?
I don't really know, but I guess that fuel prices are low even for planes in the US. You could put a higher fuel tax on flights from NY to Boston and use it to subsidize the trains, while reducing ticket price.
 

FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
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how can you know if it will be mismanaged etc. etc.?
I don't really know, but I guess that fuel prices are low even for planes in the US. You could put a higher fuel tax on flights from NY to Boston and use it to subsidize the trains, while reducing ticket price.

It'll be mismanaged, just like any other government operation. The only thing the .gov does well is waste money. This is nothing more than a big payback to the corporations that helped ge Obama in office (like GE) and the unions.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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Actually I do, hence my knowledge of the differences in Tokyo trains and subways versus those in places like new york. Good try though. When were you last in japan?

I dunno, when is the last time you got shanked? NYC is nothing like the 1980s. Which is why I ask you how often you get out, it is actually one of the safer US cities.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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It'll be mismanaged, just like any other government operation. The only thing the .gov does well is waste money. This is nothing more than a big payback to the corporations that helped ge Obama in office (like GE) and the unions.

Yet our transit makes a surplus on their budget every year.

Matter of fact we are once again adding to our "rainy day fund" this year with surplus in the middle of a recession.

Just since Bush left we have saved 25million in surplus the city, state or feds is not allowed to touch anymore for oil wars. We have a cushion to fall back on in emergency and a few million this year for rolling stock upgrades/deep cleanings.

See what happens when you take small government conservatives out of the picture? Things are funded enough to run correctly. A amazing concept I know.
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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New 2011 BART budget: cleaner trains, replenished reserves, possible temporary fare reduction
BART customers are going to see many improvements to their commute thanks to the budget the agency’s Board of Directors passed today for the upcoming fiscal year
, which begins July 1. The Board also allocated money to temporarily lower fares by 3% for four months – although the fare reduction is contingent upon the outcome of a series of meetings designed in part to gather public input on the impacts on a temporary fare drop on low-income, minority and limited English speaking communities.

In a 6 to 3 vote, the BART Board passed the $582.1 million Fiscal Year 2011 Operating Budget, which included a $4.5 million surplus. The Board approved a plan to allocate most of the surplus funds to improve the commutes for BART customers. The plan also sets aside a portion of the surplus for a possible temporary fare reduction and puts additional money from the excess revenues into rainy-day reserves.

However, before the agency spends any of the surplus, BART staff will return to the Board – most likely in July - to get the Board’s final authorization to spend the surplus.

“What the BART Board did today was historic,” BART Board President James Fang said. “I have never heard of a transit agency anywhere in the world lowering fares when times are good, let alone when times are bad. Thanks in part to this board’s careful financial decision making, we are in the unique position to be able to return the excess revenues to our customers in a meaningful and fiscally responsible way.”

The Board allocated the $4.5 million as follows:

$2.3 million for possible 3% fare reduction over 4 month, pending outcome of a series of public meetings to gather feedback on that option
$1 million for BART’s rainy-day reserves, bring total reserves to $25 million
$750,000 for deep-cleaning of 50 rail cars complete with fresh, new seats
$200,000 to defer an increase in East Bay paratransit fares for 4 months
$150,000 for emergency operations facility

In addition, the Board allocated $75,000 of the surplus revenues to install monitors showing real-time train departure information at various businesses located near BART stations.


"BART is 95% on-time,” BART Board Vice President Bob Franklin said. "But if you don't know the schedule or if there is a delay in service, these screens installed in places like coffee shops will display exactly when the next several BART trains are departing."


BART COST-CUTTING & STATE FUNDING HELPED TO CREATE SURPLUS
One major factor contributing to BART’s $4.5 million surplus is the agency’s management has been carefully cutting labor and non-labor costs over the past several years to match lower ridership and sales tax revenues. The ailing economy has caused these two income sources to suffer. Together they account for about 85% of BART’s operating revenues.

Another significant factor contributing to the surplus is the court-ordered, partial restoration of public transit funding. During the past two budget cycles, the State of California diverted all public transit funding, called the State Transit Assistance (STA), into its general fund. That diversion left agencies like BART with huge holes in their budgets. However the recent court ruling coupled with new legislation to fund public transit means BART will have $26 million in STA funds for FY11 and will hopefully continue to receive approximately $23 million in FY12 and each year thereafter.

“While the newly approved STA legislation appears to provide BART with an on-going revenue stream, the funding is more vulnerable to state budget diversions than previous STA revenues that were specifically directed to public transit by a voter-approved constitutional amendment, Proposition 42,” BART General Manager Dorothy Dugger said. “Given the transit industry’s experience with STA funding and the State of California’s ongoing budget problems, future STA revenues are not a guarantee. The Metropolitan Transportation Commission has cautioned transit operators that the law is subject to change and we should treat the funding accordingly. Due to the uncertainty surrounding future STA funds and the economic recovery, we will continue to emphasize controlling expenses.”

link

Like I said, remove conservative failed ideology and "the trains start running on time" again. Imagine that, when you do not irresponsibly half-ass/fund a job things work efficiently!

You would think this would be a "common sense value", but to each his own.
 
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PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
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I was speaking of BART, MUNI still has to give a chunk of its operating budgets to the Feds for the war.

BART had shortfalls also until this practice was cut out.

http://www.bart.gov/docs/FY2010_financials.pdf

For the last FY10, BART had operating losses of $279 Million. It would have been much worse, but some savings were made by eliminating positions and reducing compensation benefits.

You're whole claim of operating budgets going to the feds is ridiculous. Do you understand what Operating expenses are? If you look at OPERATING REVENUE and OPERATING EXPENSES, BART takes in significantly less money in fares than it costs to just run and maintain the trains.

See... it helps if you know what you are talking about before you talk about it.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
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Wait...the way I read that, it reads like general taxes collected by the state of CA are going to the STA. BART is now getting money again from the STA, which means it's getting money from CA tax revenue: The Taxpayers.

You're telling me it's not self sufficient by riders fares alone???
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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One again: In a 6 to 3 vote, the BART Board passed the $582.1 million Fiscal Year 2011 Operating Budget, which included a $4.5 million surplus
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
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One again: In a 6 to 3 vote, the BART Board passed the $582.1 million Fiscal Year 2011 Operating Budget, which included a $4.5 million surplus

And if you took 5 minutes to figure out why, you would see that it is because they get around $200 - $250 million per year in capital contributions (Federal and State aid).

If you think they are making $4.5 million in operating surplus this year, when they've lost close to $300 million per year for the last 3 years... you're pretty clueless.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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You're telling me it's not self sufficient by riders fares alone???

Fares and transit taxes on tickets and monthly passes are 85% of BARTs budget. The rest come from CA taxpayer. Thing is we put back more then that 15% with advertising and shops. Enough that we have a surplus for the system itself if that clears things up a bit.
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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And to those flyover folks whining about the gubermunt being corrupt, here is how you gauge how well they are doing with collections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

Notice the areas with the most efficient infrastructure can have a ROI at the farebox of 149%! (Hong Kong) Places that half-ass the job bleed cash.



bullet-train.jpg

Tokyo has a 170% return at the farebox, and a kickass bullet train system that is the envy of the world. How many multi-casualty pile up do we have on our freeways yearly? How many passenger planes crash taking 100s of folks in one accident?

Don't forget: Most of these HSR countries have never had a fatality in their history of HSR. Pretty awesome record.
 
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PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
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Fares and transit taxes on tickets and monthly passes are 85% of BARTs budget. The rest come from CA taxpayer. Thing is we put back more then that 15%. Enough that we have a surplus for the system itself if that clears things up a bit.

I gave you their financial statements. Why do you continue to make shit up when I gave you the facts?

FY10

Operating Revenues (Fares, other) - $368 Million
Non-operating Revenue (Taxes, financial aid) - $232 Million
Capital Contributions (Grants, Federal/State Aid, Other) - $252 Million

Fares account for a little less than half of their budget.

Even with taxes (Operating and non-operating revenue), they had a shortfall of $47 Million before capital contributions.

Honestly, just stop talking.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
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Notice the areas with the most efficient infrastructure can have a ROI at the farebox of 149%! (Hong Kong) Places that half-ass the job bleed cash.

So I guess Europe does a pretty half-ass job, minus London. I thought Europe was the gold standard in public transportation?

Or maybe it has more to do with geography and population density, like reality suggests.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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So I guess Europe does a pretty half-ass job, minus London. I thought Europe was the gold standard in public transportation?

Notice that all those records of europe are from 91-92 (20 years old!) when HSR was just starting. Only one that is modern is..100% return at farebox try again.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
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Notice that all those records of europe are from 91-92 when HSR was just starting. Only one that is modern is..100% return at farebox try again.

What HSR is there in the London Underground?

Why are you posting these figures of public transportation returns and trying to use it to say HSR makes money? It doesn't matter the year, look at the goddamn population density. More people to ride a train = more revenue per train. Who gives a flying fuck how fast it goes?
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
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That is latter half of 2009's budget.

No, it's the year ending June 2010. Do you know what a fiscal year is?

We have saved over 20m in profits since back in to the system.
Saying something doesn't make it true. I posted the reports FROM BART saying that they LOSE over $270 MILLION PER YEAR on operations. The ONLY REASON there is a small surplus is due to FEDERAL AND STATE SUBSIDIES.

2012 budget is coming up in a few months.
So once you get one, you can pull up the numbers and prove me wrong. But if you are going to tell me with a straight face that they cut operating expenses from $647 Million to $300 million in 1 year when you have absolutely nothing to show me, then I can't do anything but laugh at your ignorance.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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Who gives a flying fuck how fast it goes?

Now you are being silly.

So I will stoop to your level (I am bored)
Anyhow, too bad, we get fast trains. Go suck on a exhaust pipe. Elections have consequences and shit and you guys lost big.

Maybe if you guys listened to experts instead of a bunch of junkie dropouts on talk radio you would start to figure out how you have been played. Bitches.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
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Now you are being silly.

No, I'm trying to figure out how you make the leap from total farebox recovery to HSR being a money-maker when nothing in those figures suggests any relationship.

So I will stoop to your level (I am bored)

Maybe if you did, you'd have some hard numbers to support your claims instead of stomping your feet and insisting that reality is wrong.

Anyhow, too bad, we get fast trains. Go suck on a exhaust pipe. Elections have consequences and shit and you guys lost big.

Elections do have consequences, and it's a good thing. At least now we have Republicans in congress who will undoubtedly block this ridiculous spending black hole.