Obama: Perceived as Weak or Strong? Or too early?

[jeffw2767602]

I don't understand why Bush gets so much praise for his response to 9/11. ANY president would've responded in a similar fashion. I mean seriously....its like you are congradulating him for successfully wiping his ass.

Anyways I think we could learn a lot from Europe. National health insurance seems like an awesome idea and their education system is faring better than ours (along with quite a few countries). We do have a lot to learn from all of these countries that are doing better than us in certain aspects. To say otherwise is total ignorance.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I don't think we should be so quick to be so anti-European. They are, on average, are happier with their lives, have more balance, and have a higher life-expectancy/standard of living.

We aren't perfect. Neither is the EU. But we have a lot we can learn about each other.

Everyone has a lot to learn from each other, but our relationship with Europe is unbalanced and dangerous. Europe is imploding and in 50 years will crumble under its demographic problems. If the US does not act now to form new and serious relationships with emerging countries, then we're going to have another crisis in our lifetimes. Our own demographics are changing and this irrational alliance with Europe will be changed, whether you like it or not.

So, I guess you're all for renaming french fries to freedom fries.

I won't miss cheney and his cabal.

No, that's dumb.

If we can pressure the French to change, especially in regards to their policies in Africa, we should possibly retain them as an ally, as well as the UK. Other European countries are declining at an incredible rate with some projected to have their populations drop by over 50%. We're opening ourselves to massive liabilities with associations with them.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: counterstrikedude

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I don't think we should be so quick to be so anti-European. They are, on average, are happier with their lives, have more balance, and have a higher life-expectancy/standard of living.

We aren't perfect. Neither is the EU. But we have a lot we can learn about each other.

Do you really want the U.S to be another Britain, France, or Germany? Where the government has total control over education, health, and media??

Saudi Arabia has higher standard of living and similar life expectancy, that has absolutely nothing to do with democracy and freedom.

Link to standard of living in SA? In my mind, the amount of freedom one has is part of the standard of living equation - the US and Europe certainly have a much higher SoL when you look at the freedoms we enjoy.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: counterstrikedude

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I'm thinking about a different kind of weakness.

Obama is popular in some parts of Europe because they view Obama as a potentially weak president who will kowtow to European interests, especially in regards to upcoming talks regarding reforming the financial systems. They'll realize soon that Obama will not sellout America for European interests. It's going to be interesting to see how they handle it. I hope the Secret Service is ready.

Haha...since when is Obama not going to kowtow to Europe? His policies scream socialism - something Europe is knee-deep in.

The real question should be: How far will Obama go?

You people live in loony tunes land or something. Obama's surrendering to Nancy Pelosi, he's surrendering to Europe, he's surrendering to Iran. The guy hasn't spent one day in the oval office yet but due to some batshit crazy idea you cooked up in your head he's surrendering left and right.

Use your brain people, the only person in the entire campaign season who had the guts to stand tough was Obama. When the financial crisis hit McCain flailed around like a little bitch, Obama resisted massive pressure to follow suit and suspend his campaign too. This guy has some balls on him, and he'll do just fine.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: counterstrikedude

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: counterstrikedude

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I'm thinking about a different kind of weakness.

Obama is popular in some parts of Europe because they view Obama as a potentially weak president who will kowtow to European interests, especially in regards to upcoming talks regarding reforming the financial systems. They'll realize soon that Obama will not sellout America for European interests. It's going to be interesting to see how they handle it. I hope the Secret Service is ready.

Haha...since when is Obama not going to kowtow to Europe? His policies scream socialism - something Europe is knee-deep in.

The real question should be: How far will Obama go?

Enacting similar domestic policies does not mean he would be submissive to them. In international issues he will not be submissive to European arrogance.

Since when? Did you not see him in Germany? I see it now - Obama - president of the global world.

The fact that he shares a common ideal speaks volumes of his political intentions. Of course he is going to bend over for European opinion, why wouldn't he?

WTF are you talking about? Most Europeans would be disgusted with him if they found out his political views. He would be considered extremely liberal on something like abortion and an extreme conservative when it comes to the death penalty.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: counterstrikedude

Since when? Did you not see him in Germany? I see it now - Obama - president of the global world.

The fact that he shares a common ideal speaks volumes of his political intentions. Of course he is going to bend over for European opinion, why wouldn't he?

It looks like you're just crazy, or incredibly ignorant. In Europe Obama would be on the right, possibly even the far right.

Only the far right loons on here could come up with a reason how sharing common ideals with our allies was a bad thing. Seek professional help.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I don't think we should be so quick to be so anti-European. They are, on average, are happier with their lives, have more balance, and have a higher life-expectancy/standard of living.

We aren't perfect. Neither is the EU. But we have a lot we can learn about each other.

Everyone has a lot to learn from each other, but our relationship with Europe is unbalanced and dangerous. Europe is imploding and in 50 years will crumble under its demographic problems. If the US does not act now to form new and serious relationships with emerging countries, then we're going to have another crisis in our lifetimes. Our own demographics are changing and this irrational alliance with Europe will be changed, whether you like it or not.

So, I guess you're all for renaming french fries to freedom fries.

I won't miss cheney and his cabal.

No, that's dumb.

If we can pressure the French to change, especially in regards to their policies in Africa, we should possibly retain them as an ally, as well as the UK. Other European countries are declining at an incredible rate with some projected to have their populations drop by over 50%. We're opening ourselves to massive liabilities with associations with them.

I don't know where you're getting your information. It sounds to me like you're fear mongering - the reason which escapes me at the moment.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

I don't know where you're getting your information. It sounds to me like you're fear mongering - the reason which escapes me at the moment.

The information is well-known. You're obviously isolationist in your research and reading. There's a whole world outside our borders.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I mean, like him or hate him, GWB is someone you know will use the military to attack your ass if you do something stupid...like fly planes into buildings. Some might thing twice about crossing the line as they know GWB will defend the USA with the military.

So, is BHO perceived tobe weak or strong? Or is it too early to know?

Obviously, Israel perceives him as weak on Iran:

Jerusalem Skeptical of Obama's Middle East Policy

Will this only encourage Israel to attack Iran before January 20, 2009? I am sure, even if they did it on January 19, GWB would get involved.

It has been over seven years since 9/11, and (thankfully) there have been no major terrorist attacks on American soil. Perhaps for a reason? Perhaps they know GWB will retaliate? Perhaps terrorists will want to test BHO soon after he takes office?

And perhaps, today BHO received his first real Presidential Intelligence Briefing and has already learned that the world is far more complex, and far less rosy, than his campaign rhetoric allowed?

russia started out this morning by announcing placement of missels in europe.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I don't think we should be so quick to be so anti-European. They are, on average, are happier with their lives, have more balance, and have a higher life-expectancy/standard of living.

We aren't perfect. Neither is the EU. But we have a lot we can learn about each other.

No way they have a higher standard of living.

Although much of that is based on personal values.

They live in much smaller homes and have less wealth that Americans, but they also have more time off and travel more.

So it is really hard to compare us to them directly. It comes down to what you value as a person.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: counterstrikedude

Since when? Did you not see him in Germany? I see it now - Obama - president of the global world.

The fact that he shares a common ideal speaks volumes of his political intentions. Of course he is going to bend over for European opinion, why wouldn't he?

It looks like you're just crazy, or incredibly ignorant. In Europe Obama would be on the right, possibly even the far right.

Only the far right loons on here could come up with a reason how sharing common ideals with our allies was a bad thing. Seek professional help.

I don't think it's possible to be as absurd as he is and have any awareness of it.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I don't think we should be so quick to be so anti-European. They are, on average, are happier with their lives, have more balance, and have a higher life-expectancy/standard of living.

We aren't perfect. Neither is the EU. But we have a lot we can learn about each other.

No way they have a higher standard of living.

Although much of that is based on personal values.

They live in much smaller homes and have less wealth that Americans, but they also have more time off and travel more.

So it is really hard to compare us to them directly. It comes down to what you value as a person.

According to most objective sources quite a lot of western european countries have higher standards of living than the average American. Iceland, Norway, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, France, the Netherlands, etc. We do beat out the UK and Germany though. (from the human development index)

Life in the US is great overall, I have few complaints, but still a good number of European countries have us beaten.

 

[ProfJohn]

How we perceive him is irrelevant. It is how the rest of the world looks at him that matter and especially those countries and people who oppose us.
If they think he is weak they are far more likely to take provocative actions and test him. Thus the Russia missile thing today.

History shows us that having a President who is thought of as being weak is very dangerous. The Soviets thought Kennedy was weak and because of that we got the Cuban missile crisis. Who knows what we will get today.

With the death toll in Iraq as low as it is Obama would be very smart to ditch his get out as soon as possible idea and instead adopt a stronger stance, he doesn't have much to lose. He should also act strong in Afghanistan. And more importantly appoint a strong Sec of Defense. If he comes out of the gate looking like he will have a strong foreign policy stance he is much less likely to face challenges later.

Think of it this way:
On your first day in prison you act like a bad ass MOFO and people are less likely to pick fights with you.
But if you act like a wimp people will pick fights with you until you PROVE you are a bad ass.
Much easier to act like one at the start than have to prove you are one down the line.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
How we perceive him is irrelevant. It is how the rest of the world looks at him that matter and especially those countries and people who oppose us.
If they think he is weak they are far more likely to take provocative actions and test him. Thus the Russia missile thing today.

History shows us that having a President who is thought of as being weak is very dangerous. The Soviets thought Kennedy was weak and because of that we got the Cuban missile crisis. Who knows what we will get today.

With the death toll in Iraq as low as it is Obama would be very smart to ditch his get out as soon as possible idea and instead adopt a stronger stance, he doesn't have much to lose. He should also act strong in Afghanistan. And more importantly appoint a strong Sec of Defense. If he comes out of the gate looking like he will have a strong foreign policy stance he is much less likely to face challenges later.

Think of it this way:
On your first day in prison you act like a bad ass MOFO and people are less likely to pick fights with you.
But if you act like a wimp people will pick fights with you until you PROVE you are a bad ass.
Much easier to act like one at the start than have to prove you are one down the line.

What I don't get about that move today is that GWB is still in office. Perhaps just a reminder to Obama to 1) Kill missile defense, or 2) We're going to be a thorn in your side from the get go?

I mean, GWB still has to deal with Medvedev for another two months or so.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I don't think we should be so quick to be so anti-European. They are, on average, are happier with their lives, have more balance, and have a higher life-expectancy/standard of living.

We aren't perfect. Neither is the EU. But we have a lot we can learn about each other.

No way they have a higher standard of living.

Although much of that is based on personal values.

They live in much smaller homes and have less wealth that Americans, but they also have more time off and travel more.

So it is really hard to compare us to them directly. It comes down to what you value as a person.

According to most objective sources quite a lot of western european countries have higher standards of living than the average American. Iceland, Norway, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, France, the Netherlands, etc. We do beat out the UK and Germany though. (from the human development index)

Life in the US is great overall, I have few complaints, but still a good number of European countries have us beaten.

What are those standards based on though??

I think it ends up being very subjective.

As I said, people in the US tend to live in bigger houses, have more cars, more stuff etc etc. We live material life styles.

Europeans live in small houses, but have more time off, free healthcare, a less materialistic life style.

In the end I think it depends on personal preference as to who lives a higher standard of living based on what you perceive as being important.

A typical middle class American family living in its McMansion would move into a typical small European house and be very unhappy. Just as a typical European would look at his two weeks of vacation per year in American and be very unhappy.

 

[GTaudiophile]

And the Euros tend to care for their environment better too...

I personally prefer the "Europeans live in small houses, but have more time off, free healthcare, a less materialistic life style." I guess I am more of a minimalist who believes in balance, working hard and playing hard.

But I don't think it should be the government that delivers this lifestyle.

 

[ProfJohn]

I like to travel so sign my up for the Euro lifestyle

Of course since they work less they make less income and thus have smaller houses. And yes I understand that their 5 weeks off per years is paid time off, but due to all this time off they make less per year than Americans do.

If you look at GDP (PPP) per capita the US ranks 6 behind mostly small countries. Our 45k a year is WAY a head of most of the large European countries.
England 35k, Germany 34k, France 33k, Italy 30k, Spain 30K. Japan is at 33k and Canada at 38k.
This is the best way to compare one country to another since it takes into effect purchasing power and population.

 

[counterstrikedude]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
And the Euros tend to care for their environment better too...

I personally prefer the "Europeans live in small houses, but have more time off, free healthcare, a less materialistic life style." I guess I am more of a minimalist who believes in balance, working hard and playing hard.

But I don't think it should be the government that delivers this lifestyle.

Yes but the Europeans are largely dependent on government, something I do not want.

They control the schools, the media, and the health system. It Germany and the UK homeschooling is banned and parents are threatened with prison time if they challenge it.

Then you have the millions of immigrants leeching off Britain for social services. If you're a muslim radical, they not only pay for you to live in England, but pay your 3 wives as well (even though they don't recognize polygamy).

 

[Mani]

Israel is skeptical of anyone not interested in committing ourselves recklessly to wars in the ME. The guy has barely been elected and now the right wing is flooding the airwaves that he's perceived as "weak". Hopefully that will die down when Bin Laden gets hunted down during his presidency.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Mani
Israel is skeptical of anyone not interested in committing ourselves recklessly to wars in the ME. The guy has barely been elected and now the right wing is flooding the airwaves that he's perceived as "weak". Hopefully that will die down when Bin Laden gets hunted down during his presidency.

If Obama finds Bin Laden it will be due to luck more than anything else.

It is foolish to believe that Obama will magically find Bin Laden or that Bush is not doing everything possible to find him.

 

[counterstrikedude]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Mani
Israel is skeptical of anyone not interested in committing ourselves recklessly to wars in the ME. The guy has barely been elected and now the right wing is flooding the airwaves that he's perceived as "weak". Hopefully that will die down when Bin Laden gets hunted down during his presidency.

If Obama finds Bin Laden it will be due to luck more than anything else.

It is foolish to believe that Obama will magically find Bin Laden or that Bush is not doing everything possible to find him.

It is even more foolish to believe that finding Obama will suddenly end islamic terrorism. To do that, my friends, would take a war with Iran and Syria - the primary financiers of the insurgency in Iraq and global terrorism.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I like to travel so sign my up for the Euro lifestyle

Of course since they work less they make less income and thus have smaller houses. And yes I understand that their 5 weeks off per years is paid time off, but due to all this time off they make less per year than Americans do.

If you look at GDP (PPP) per capita the US ranks 6 behind mostly small countries. Our 45k a year is WAY a head of most of the large European countries.
England 35k, Germany 34k, France 33k, Italy 30k, Spain 30K. Japan is at 33k and Canada at 38k.
This is the best way to compare one country to another since it takes into effect purchasing power and population.

No, because that's not really standard of living. The other indexes take into account infant mortality, literacy rates, things like that. It's a far more complete picture of life in that country.

Oh, and actually they probably wouldn't be unhappy in smaller homes. Research shows a negative correlation between home size and reported happiness. Just so you know.

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I don't think we should be so quick to be so anti-European. They are, on average, are happier with their lives, have more balance, and have a higher life-expectancy/standard of living.

We aren't perfect. Neither is the EU. But we have a lot we can learn about each other.

Everyone has a lot to learn from each other, but our relationship with Europe is unbalanced and dangerous. Europe is imploding and in 50 years will crumble under its demographic problems. If the US does not act now to form new and serious relationships with emerging countries, then we're going to have another crisis in our lifetimes. Our own demographics are changing and this irrational alliance with Europe will be changed, whether you like it or not.

I disagree, so long as Europe maintains its laws and high standards of education, I think it'll fair better than America. The Europeans seem far better at indoctrinating their citizens into their culture, way more patriotic on the whole.

Do you really want the U.S to be another Britain, France, or Germany? Where the government has total control over education, health, and media??

Socialism is just well intentioned fascism. Or at least to be effective it has to be fascist. In fact, any government with a strong state is inherently fascist to a degree, they have to be if they want to force people to do things. (though theoretically communism has people voluntarily doing things because they want to, but communism is fairly distinct from socialism)

They live in much smaller homes and have less wealth that Americans, but they also have more time off and travel more.

They have a higher minimum standard of living, in many European countries it's hard to say someone is 'poor' based off of how much the government gives them.
They have higher population density, so smaller homes are expected. Compare their standard of living to American urban areas.

America does have more people who live wealthy life styles, but Europe has less people who live poor life styles. I'd say the European way is healthier for a society on the whole, provided you don't mind giving up the freedoms that come with American life. Despite being separate nations, a good part of Europe seems to have a stronger unified identity than America does (partly due to indoctrination in their school systems).

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Fox5

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I don't think we should be so quick to be so anti-European. They are, on average, are happier with their lives, have more balance, and have a higher life-expectancy/standard of living.

We aren't perfect. Neither is the EU. But we have a lot we can learn about each other.

Everyone has a lot to learn from each other, but our relationship with Europe is unbalanced and dangerous. Europe is imploding and in 50 years will crumble under its demographic problems. If the US does not act now to form new and serious relationships with emerging countries, then we're going to have another crisis in our lifetimes. Our own demographics are changing and this irrational alliance with Europe will be changed, whether you like it or not.

I disagree, so long as Europe maintains its laws and high standards of education, I think it'll fair better than America. The Europeans seem far better at indoctrinating their citizens into their culture, way more patriotic on the whole.

I disagree. University-level education is severely lacking in quality in Europe. Europe is in no way perceived as a technological or educational powerhouse except for perhaps Germany. Unfortunately, demographics are not going their way. Their ages are increasing and populations decreasing. The US and Asia will lead the way.

Europe's laws are specifically what must be changed. They cannot maintain the crushing oppression against minority groups.

Europe's culture is stagnated and stuck in time since it's owned by the government and not the people. The lack of cultural output is shocking. There is a severe lack of integration partially due to this.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Mani
Israel is skeptical of anyone not interested in committing ourselves recklessly to wars in the ME. The guy has barely been elected and now the right wing is flooding the airwaves that he's perceived as "weak". Hopefully that will die down when Bin Laden gets hunted down during his presidency.

If Obama finds Bin Laden it will be due to luck more than anything else.

It is foolish to believe that Obama will magically find Bin Laden or that Bush is not doing everything possible to find him.

He won't "magically" find him. He will find him by devoting more military resources to it than Bush is today.

What's foolish is thinking that Bush has actually put the most resources and manpower he could on capturing Bin Laden. He publicly de-prioritized it after Tora Bora and waited till september to get a sense of urgency about it. Sorry, there are absolutely no excuses for letting public enemy #1 run around completely untraced for 7 years.