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Obama- "People don't truly know the track record..."

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http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...says_democrats_have_been_fixing_gop_problems/


Always. If progressives don't get their way with the electorate, it is always because the public is defective. (And that is always because of those wascally Wepubwicans.) Progressives consider themselves incapable of proposing, formulating or implementing a policy that is unpopular or Heaven forbid fails, if only the public were smart enough to understand it.

Conservatives seem incapable of understanding that policies that have failed will not magically start working if you try them over and over again. Or that tax cuts can solve every problem. They also seem remarkably blind to the fact that the people they are electing do not have their best interests at heart, but rather work to further solidify the power of the wealthy.

See, everyone can make broad sweeping generalizations that aren't really accurate 🙂
 
Oh people know the track record. Just about every big thing he has done has been against the will of The People. That's why there is such backlash against this president and his agenda. This is the common message with leftists/statists - we didn't communicate or explain it good enough to the stupid populace who are too dumb to understand.

No, it couldn't be that your policies are disastrous and harming this economy and country and are proven failures throughout the world, no it's because you didn't explain it better. Fuck obama. The outright arrogance of this president is disgusting. Our country should be ashamed of him.

Never occurred to you that mob rule isn't necessarily a good idea?

The "people" are the ones who have elected, consistently over the past 50 years, politicians from both parties who have led us to where we are. The only consistent thing the "people" have done is point the finger at anyone but themselves.
 
Never occurred to you that mob rule isn't necessarily a good idea?

The "people" are the ones who have elected, consistently over the past 50 years, politicians from both parties who have led us to where we are. The only consistent thing the "people" have done is point the finger at anyone but themselves.

The one thing Obama has done is gotten people much more involved in politics and talking about the future of this country to their family, friends and neighbors. That's how I open it up with people even strangers "So, you like where the country is headed?" Every single answer is "no" or "hell no". And then I just remind them that Tuesday is election day and they can do something about it.

Unfortunately for obama, what the country is talking about is how terrible this president is and how he MUST be stopped. Just mentioning his name around here will get disgusted lucks and curse words. People know his track record and are paying close attention, and they REJECT his policies. fuck obama.
 
The Dem's greatest failure is losing the propaganda war. They tried to rely on facts and reason to sell their agenda instead of emotion. Emotion got Obama elected, while campaigning for the very things most folks are now most angry about the Dem's actually doing. They really need their own Rovian mastermind to balance things out among the emotion-driven masses.
 
The Dem's greatest failure is losing the propaganda war. They tried to rely on facts and reason to sell their agenda instead of emotion. Emotion got Obama elected, while campaigning for the very things most folks are now most angry about the Dem's actually doing. They really need their own Rovian mastermind to balance things out among the emotion-driven masses.

You're kidding me, right? All of their large legislation was used to address "the crisis". That's how it was sold, purely based on emotion. This message has been constant from obama on down. No facts and reason, just "we need to pass this because of the <insert issue here> crisis."

And most people saw right through it, found out was in the various bills and came to the conclusion that it was terrible legislation that did nothing to address the actual "crisis".
 
You're kidding me, right? All of their large legislation was used to address "the crisis". That's how it was sold, purely based on emotion. This message has been constant from obama on down. No facts and reason, just "we need to pass this because of the <insert issue here> crisis."

Like I said, emotion got the guy elected while campaigning for those very things. The fact that there were actual crises helped but as far as most folks are concerned it's really beside the point. Perception is reality. Once the crises were addressed the Dem's tried relying on the fact they would help the problems they addressed. They tried using reason with unreasonable people who wanted simple and instant fixes. This was obviously a mistake, and the opposition cranked up the propaganda and fear mongering and here we are. If facts and logic actually motivated voters pointing back to the previous decade's failed Republican polices and the tangible damage they have done would be enough to keep the Dem's running things for at least a bit longer.

Cliffs: People are stupid, and the right is better at motivating them.
 
Obama- "People don't truly know the track record..."

It's been noted quite often how engaged the people have been in politics for the last 2 years or so.

Obama has been in campaign mode, giving more speeches and on TV more than other President ever.

His statement is patently absurd, and I think insulting. Lately I find him demonstrating a Clintonian type disregard for the truth.

Otherwise, we have hundreds of Democrats all over the country running for office. They are spending millions/billions campaigning, giving speeched, interviews and sending out brochures, surely if there was some unknown "track record" that needed to be publicized they could've done it during these many months of camapigning.

Fern
 
All people know is "Socialism," "Obamacare," "Wall St. bailouts," "victory mosque," etc. They don't bother themselves to know more details than that. His statement might be insulting, but it's true.
 
Always. If progressives don't get their way with the electorate, it is always because the public is defective. (And that is always because of those wascally Wepubwicans.)
Which is basically true. When facing any problem, progressives (by definition) suggest new methods, which are often a compromise that allow bad things to happen in order to prevent really bad things. Let's try a few examples.

Say the problem is that white women are getting nailed by black men and having these half-breed children. The conservative approach is strong - just stop having sex. The liberal approach is a compromise - keep fucking but use condoms. We know that teaching abstinence doesn't work, so it's fair to assume anyone preaching against condoms is a retard. True?

Suppose the problem is octomom having a million welfare babies. The conservative approach is a strong one - just stop feeding them and let them starve to death. We know that this doesn't work. Instead of dying, they resort to crime and end up stabbing people for $20. In South America these children are called piranhas and they basically swarm a person, take their wallet, then run away. The liberal approach is a bit more of a compromise. Mass abortions. If octomom gets pregnant 10 times, abort all 10 times. Yeah it sucks killing babby, but it prevent roaming baby gangs. Naturally we assume the anti-abortion people who support the idea of women having infinite poor children is a retard.
 
It's been noted quite often how engaged the people have been in politics for the last 2 years or so.

Obama has been in campaign mode, giving more speeches and on TV more than other President ever.

His statement is patently absurd, and I think insulting. Lately I find him demonstrating a Clintonian type disregard for the truth.

Otherwise, we have hundreds of Democrats all over the country running for office. They are spending millions/billions campaigning, giving speeched, interviews and sending out brochures, surely if there was some unknown "track record" that needed to be publicized they could've done it during these many months of camapigning.

Fern

Could it possibly be that those democrats campaigning are NOT running on their voting or track record? Democrats don't want you to know their track record or how they voted. I can't think of a single democrat who is touting the healthcare law and many who are running on a platform of "I voted against it."
 
Why would they? Using reason on unreasonable people doesn't work. If it did, we would be seeing those commercials, going down the list of things those angry people are better off from by having reform passed. People are mad, they don't care about details beyond "Obamacare, rawr!". They aren't going to let things like facts change their mind, and the Dem's have failed connecting on an emotional level.
 
All people know is "Socialism," "Obamacare," "Wall St. bailouts," "victory mosque," etc. They don't bother themselves to know more details than that. His statement might be insulting, but it's true.

People know a helluva lot more than that.

They know about the stimulous, there are signs all over the place constantly reminding them.

People know about unemployment.

They know about health care. Polls showed about 80% were happy with what they had before the HC bill.

They know about the auto company bailouts.

They know about the expiring Bush tax cuts.

They know of the increasing crime spilling across our borders.

They know about the wars.

They know about their home's value and the forclosures etc.

The 'victory mosque' s/h remained a local issue, yet Obama felt the need to inject himself into the fray thereby elevating it.

No, the average person knows quite a bit.

The political junkies know even more (expanded Patriot Act, GITMO etc)

Fern
 
You are giving the average person way too much credit. They know what they "feel." There have been plenty of posts on this board about how most people arrive at their opinions, and a firm grasp of reality doesn't rank very high on that list.

As far as your list, some are Obama's fault, some he had a lot of Republican help with in the preceding decade, and some aren't his fault at all. So it says something about you that you'd post such a list as a reason people are voting against Dem's this cycle.

They know about health care. Polls showed about 80&#37; were happy with what they had before the HC bill.

If this were true, why didn't it sink his campaign as reform, and talk of more drastic reform than what we got, was one of his central campaign issues? Thanks for further evidence that people are emotional and fall for the propaganda over reason.
 
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People know a helluva lot more than that.

They know about the stimulous, there are signs all over the place constantly reminding them.

People know about unemployment.

They know about health care. Polls showed about 80% were happy with what they had before the HC bill.

They know about the auto company bailouts.

They know about the expiring Bush tax cuts.

They know of the increasing crime spilling across our borders.

They know about the wars.

They know about their home's value and the forclosures etc.

The 'victory mosque' s/h remained a local issue, yet Obama felt the need to inject himself into the fray thereby elevating it.

No, the average person knows quite a bit.

The political junkies know even more (expanded Patriot Act, GITMO etc)

Fern
I agree that the "average person" (i.e. spends his time watching reality TV and/or NASCAR/NFL/NBA) is this year much more informed about what is going. That's part of the reason for the Obama-hating. Admittedly another part is that far too many Americans have a greatly inaccurate concept of the role, and the power, of our Presidency. Everyone can see that things are not getting better, which leads to loss of confidence in the party in power (and especially the guy in the White House) if not outright hatred. Since they are convinced that the President controls the economy, obviously he COULD fix it, and if he doesn't it can only be because he hates America, or he's a tool of big business/big oil/big pharma/big unions/big asses or big whatever and cares nothing about the little guy. Throughout 2009 this wasn't as big a problem for Obama because although things were still getting worse, at the least the rate at which they were getting worse was noticeably slowing.

Weird, huh?
LOL!

Term limits for all?
I'd love that. I doubt we'll ever get it though. Progressive politicians merely get more progressive with long-term exposure to D.C., so they are convinced that they are an elite much smarter and wiser than the masses. Conservative politicians also tend to get more progressive, which convinces them that they too are a superior elite. Even those who remain very conservative become increasingly convinced that they are an elite with all the answers, even if they violently disagree with their more progressive fellow elites as to what those answers might actually be. Bottom line, people in power tend not to vote themselves out of power.
 
You are giving the average person way too much credit. They know what they "feel." There have been plenty of posts on this board about how most people arrive at their opinions, and a firm grasp of reality doesn't rank very high on that list.

Those ARE things that people feel.

As far as your list, some are Obama's fault, some he had a lot of Republican help with in the preceding decade, and some aren't his fault at all. So it says something about you that you'd post such a list as a reason people are voting against Dem's this cycle.

Fault is not now the issue. The issue is now HOW things are. Some things are not his fault, but politics isn't fair. The last two years (should really be about 4 yrs since that's how long the Dems have held control of Congress) haven't been good and a political price will be paid. That's how it's always worked. you get a 1 year honeymoon, after that all bets are off.


If this were true, why didn't it sink his campaign as reform, and talk of more drastic reform than what we got, was one of his central campaign issues? Thanks for further evidence that people are emotional and fall for the propaganda over reason.

I don't recall that being a big reason why he won the election. Lately I've heard this said, and it's always struck me as a revision.

People were (and remain) fed up with the partisan bickering in Washington. He was running as a "transformative" candidate. He was going to change all that. He and McCain were running neck-and-neck in the polls until the economy took a big dive a few months before the election. He gave people "hope" that he could change it, didn't happen.

I think something else may be relevent here too. It was widely acknowledged that Obama wasn't well known and that he campaigned on a lot of platitudes - "Hope and Change" - and that people were using this charismatic candidate as a blank canvas to paint whatever they wanted. So we can't be sure what peoples' expectations were. But judging by Obama's polls, whatever they may have been, many people don't feel they satisfied. As far as this goes, it was surely to his benefit during the campaign, but like all things there is a (hidden) downside and we may be seeing that now.

Fern
 
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The one thing Obama has done is gotten people much more involved in politics and talking about the future of this country to their family, friends and neighbors. That's how I open it up with people even strangers "So, you like where the country is headed?" Every single answer is "no" or "hell no". And then I just remind them that Tuesday is election day and they can do something about it.

Unfortunately for obama, what the country is talking about is how terrible this president is and how he MUST be stopped. Just mentioning his name around here will get disgusted lucks and curse words. People know his track record and are paying close attention, and they REJECT his policies. fuck obama.

Reject them in favor of what? The same things we've been doing for 40+ years that nearly led total economic collapse? Tea Party candidates have presented absolutely no unified platform or new ideas that do not ring of anything other than neoconservative with a new name. The only exception might be Rand Paul.

Republicans are going to win on Tuesday simply because there is no other option. Everyone I speak to who is voting Republican isn't "excited" about it, they are doing it because they are unhappy with democrats have no viable alternative choice. It's going to be hilarious to watch the disappointment the "Tea Party" is going to feel over the next 2 years when they realize they've been had...

In fact, it's going to mirror how progressives have felt. Hopefully that will actually cause the "people" to finally wake up and stop wildly ping ponging.
 
http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...says_democrats_have_been_fixing_gop_problems/


Always. If progressives don't get their way with the electorate, it is always because the public is defective. (And that is always because of those wascally Wepubwicans.) Progressives consider themselves incapable of proposing, formulating or implementing a policy that is unpopular or Heaven forbid fails, if only the public were smart enough to understand it.

Is Kerry a progressive? No. Had you gotten one Progressive down, you would still have to show that of all the one's you haven't yet quoted. We are talking always about progressives, or rather, you are.

I happen to know that people aren't progressive because they hate themselves.

And it's not your fault. It couldn't be any other way. You had to go to sleep or you would have died in childhood for real. You are a Stockholm surviver.
 
Is Kerry a progressive? No. Had you gotten one Progressive down, you would still have to show that of all the one's you haven't yet quoted. We are talking always about progressives, or rather, you are.

I happen to know that people aren't progressive because they hate themselves.

And it's not your fault. It couldn't be any other way. You had to go to sleep or you would have died in childhood for real. You are a Stockholm surviver.

You don't think John "A woman has a perfect right to have an abortion, at any stage of pregnancy, for any reason, at public expense" Kerry is a progressive? Dang, that just leaves Castro and Craig!
 
You don't think John "A woman has a perfect right to have an abortion, at any stage of pregnancy, for any reason, at public expense" Kerry is a progressive? Dang, that just leaves Castro and Craig!

We could easily use that stance to label him a libertarian too.

I've noticed that as the election draws close there is a tendency to label anyone who supports any left leaning policy as a "progressive." I think it'd be helpful if we expanded our vocabulary.
 
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We could easily use that stance to label him a libertarian too.

I've noticed that as the election draws close you've had a tendency to label anyone who supports any left leaning policy as a "progressive." I think it'd be helpful if you expanded your vocabulary.

No one who says a woman has a right to an abortion at public expense could remotely be described as a libertarian. Come on, Carmen.

Off the top of my head:
Progressive - expanding the scope and especially power of government at the expense of individual liberty, especially financial liberty. Generally wants government to discriminate to enforce their definition of fairness. Sees government as the proper arbitrator of, and as the proper solution to, all problems.

Liberal - expanding individual liberty, often through expanding the scope of government. Generally wants government to prevent others from infringing on their definition of fairness. Sees government as the necessary solution to some problems where conditions prevent a reasonable chance for individuals to prosper.

Libertarian - expanding individual liberty, including financial liberty, by limiting the scope of government. Generally wants government only to prevent people and corporations from directly harming others. Sees government as a necessary evil that is very seldom necessary.

Fiscal Conservative - maintaining the traditional institutions of America, especially by limiting the growth of government. Often (but not always) socially conservative as well. Generally wants government only to prevent people and corporations from directly harming others. Sees government as a necessary evil that is sometimes necessary.

Social Conservative - maintaining the traditional social institutions of America, often at the expense of expanding the scope of government. Often (but not always) fiscally conservative as well. Generally wants government to prevent people from infringing on their definition of what is proper. Sees government as a necessary tool to enforce standards against deviants and other undesirables.
 
There is a tendency to assume that all libertarians are right leaning. I did miss the public expense part when I read your post, but after thinking about it for awhile I could see some left libertarians supporting public funding for abortions.

It would require a bit of nuance to get there, but it would essentially boil down to using public funds to ensure the woman had access to a safe medical procedure. Limited resources could lead her to being oppressed by not having access due strictly to financial reasons. I don't think you are likely to find many who think this way, but I wouldn't rule anything out 🙂

At any rate, my main point was that we need to watch about how we use labels. We end up in a system where words have no meaning.

Liberalism in a classical sense is actually against expanding government, because they see government as inherently oppressive. Liberals who are using government to expand liberty are often doing so through ways designed to end institutional discrimination, and typically focus on things ending mandatory minimums, ect.

Progressives ("Fiscal Liberals") tend to want to address wealth concentration. This isn't something that I personally disagree with, because by continuing to concentrate economic resources into the hands of fewer individuals we are ultimately heading down the path of less freedom for the majority. My main concern is with the uber-wealthy, individuals who comprise only a fraction of percent (.1&#37😉 of the people in this country but control substantial resources. Progressives are also to use government to take steps to end institutional discrimination further than classical liberals would by using programs like affirmative action.

Fiscal conservatism to me is primarily about deficits, balanced budgets, and sound fiscal policy. I see social conservatives as the only ones concerned about maintaining traditional institution.
 
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I have indeed, and yes it was great. Best Press diner evar! I remember not being sure what was funnier; Colbert's knack for comedic delivery and overall audacity, or the fact that Bush seemed pretty lost the whole time, clearly not understanding much if not all of the fun being had at his expense.

The bushbots trying to dismiss it as no big deal was pretty funny too come to think of it.

Quite a change to go from a simpleton who doesn't have a clue as to what's going on around him, to a guy who actually take a joke and even make a few good ones of his own.
 
There is a tendency to assume that all libertarians are right leaning. I did miss the public expense part when I read your post, but after thinking about it for awhile I could see some left libertarians supporting public funding for abortions.

It would require a bit of nuance to get there, but it would essentially boil down to using public funds to ensure the woman had access to a safe medical procedure. Limited resources could lead her to being oppressed by not having access due strictly to financial reasons. I don't think you are likely to find many who think this way, but I wouldn't rule anything out 🙂

At any rate, my main point was that we need to watch about how we use labels. We end up in a system where words have no meaning.

Liberalism in a classical sense is actually against expanding government, because they see government as inherently oppressive. Liberals who are using government to expand liberty are often doing so through ways designed to end institutional discrimination, and typically focus on things ending mandatory minimums, ect.

Progressives ("Fiscal Liberals") tend to want to address wealth concentration. This isn't something that I personally disagree with, because by continuing to concentrate economic resources into the hands of fewer individuals we are ultimately heading down the path of less freedom for the majority. My main concern is with the uber-wealthy, individuals who comprise only a fraction of percent (.1%) of the people in this country but control substantial resources. Progressives are also to use government to take steps to end institutional discrimination further than classical liberals would by using programs like affirmative action.

Fiscal conservatism to me is primarily about deficits, balanced budgets, and sound fiscal policy. I see social conservatives as the only ones concerned about maintaining traditional institution.

I think of libertarians as fiscally conservative and socially liberal - as long as government (i.e. confiscation & redistribution of wealth) isn't required. A libertarian would say you have the right to do anything you want, but no one owes you the means of doing it. Where unmet needs exist, they should be handled by private charities - emphasis on charity - not by government. I believe much the same thing, except I think modern society is too expensive for all charity to be handled by private charities. I'm old enough to remember the poor houses, where government bought a very large house and the elderly poor lived two to a room and set in the parlor or weather permitting on the porch all day. Where a society becomes rich enough, I think we owe the poor a bit more than that. Similarly, I think public education is a pretty good thing, whereas to a pure libertarian government schools are anathema. In these way I am more liberal than libertarian, as a liberal will accept government action (with its accompanying loss of freedom) if he thinks a need will otherwise go unmet.

My big differences with libertarians though are in foreign policy and border enforcement. A true libertarian believes in a very weak, isolationist military and foreign policy - which I think became outdated with modern ocean-going vessels and transcontinental bombers - and an open border. In that way I am MUCH more conservative than libertarian.

I refuse to admit to any progressive tendencies though. Where I have anything in common with progressives, it's purely a result of my liberal tendencies. I do not believe in wealth redistribution, either. If wealth is being too unevenly held - and remember, wealth inequities are a feature of any advanced society, as not all people are equally blessed with abilities or work ethic - I believe in adopting laws that help others better compete and build their own wealth, not in simply seizing the wealth of the richest and redistributing it.
 
I think of libertarians as fiscally conservative and socially liberal - as long as government (i.e. confiscation & redistribution of wealth) isn't required. A libertarian would say you have the right to do anything you want, but no one owes you the means of doing it. Where unmet needs exist, they should be handled by private charities - emphasis on charity - not by government. I believe much the same thing, except I think modern society is too expensive for all charity to be handled by private charities. I'm old enough to remember the poor houses, where government bought a very large house and the elderly poor lived two to a room and set in the parlor or weather permitting on the porch all day. Where a society becomes rich enough, I think we owe the poor a bit more than that. Similarly, I think public education is a pretty good thing, whereas to a pure libertarian government schools are anathema. In these way I am more liberal than libertarian, as a liberal will accept government action (with its accompanying loss of freedom) if he thinks a need will otherwise go unmet.

My big differences with libertarians though are in foreign policy and border enforcement. A true libertarian believes in a very weak, isolationist military and foreign policy - which I think became outdated with modern ocean-going vessels and transcontinental bombers - and an open border. In that way I am MUCH more conservative than libertarian.

I refuse to admit to any progressive tendencies though. Where I have anything in common with progressives, it's purely a result of my liberal tendencies. I do not believe in wealth redistribution, either. If wealth is being too unevenly held - and remember, wealth inequities are a feature of any advanced society, as not all people are equally blessed with abilities or work ethic - I believe in adopting laws that help others better compete and build their own wealth, not in simply seizing the wealth of the richest and redistributing it.

Depends on left vs. right libertarianism, left libertarians will occasionally support large government programs when they feel private/non-profit sector efforts have failed...that's basically where I'm at with health care. Using my definition this isn't necessarily not fiscally conservative, because I am concerned about deficits/debt as well. I would not have supported HC reform that didn't at least meet some litmus test of being deficit neutral. Right libertarians tend to be more openly hostile, almost anarchistic, towards government in my experience. I more consider government something that needs to be monitored closely by an active citizenry. In the U.S. we really don't have that, even in our best elections 30&#37; or so of people sit out.

I think one thing that is important when discussing politics is to consider principle vs. pragmatism. There are many individuals on both the left and right who consider anyone who tries to be pragmatic unprincipled...this is the flack Obama often receives from his left flank. I tend to agree with many liberal outcomes, but not necessarily their means for achieving goals. I would rather people voluntarily change their minds then be forced to behave a certain way by a government body.

In terms of wealth, I am against wealth concentration in the upper tiers and policies that encourage that. I think history has shown us that wealth concentration among the upper class is followed shortly by lots of bloodshed. I see this pattern dating back to the time of the Romans. If the majority of people are struggling just to exist day to day then a society is inherently unstable. We aren't there yet, but I think we've been headed in that direction for a while now.

I don't necessarily support outright taking money from one class and giving it to another, but I do prefer slower policies that even the playing field somewhat...and ultimately I'm less concerned about wealth concentration than I am about addressing inherent disparities in opportunity that exist across various groups. I'm more concerned about making sure everyone starts at the same place, and has some help for the bumps along the way, than I am about equality of outcomes.
 
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