Obama / NSA listening to phone calls without warrants

[sunzt]

Wow, conservatives suddenly realize what has been going on since 2001. "Warrant-less wiretapping" and the patriot act was the big thing they were defending against democrats, and now suddenly they act as it's all a big surprise to them?

WTF?

Whatever, I was ambivalent about it back then and just because Obama is in charge AND DOING THE SAME THINGS it's not going to change my attitude.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Wow, conservatives suddenly realize what has been going on since 2001. "Warrant-less wiretapping" and the patriot act was the big thing they were defending against democrats, and now suddenly they act as it's all a big surprise to them?

WTF?

Whatever, I was ambivalent about it back then and just because Obama is in charge AND DOING THE SAME THINGS it's not going to change my attitude.

Some are. Good thing there are people who are consistent.

 

[nehalem256]

Ignoring political reality, I see.

If Obama failed to implement powers granted to the Executive by Congress, Repubs would be screaming for impeachment on the grounds of him not pertekting Merricuh from the Terrarist! boogeyman.

Once they work themselves into a hissy fit over anything, they extend it to everything, going full retarded obstructionist on the normal workings of govt.

Yes, they're extortionists. Tell me something I don't know.

I thought Obama didn't know what was going on 😀

 

[Jaskalas]

Ignoring political reality, I see.

If Obama failed to implement powers granted to the Executive by Congress, Repubs would be screaming for impeachment on the grounds of him not pertekting Merricuh from the Terrarist! boogeyman.

Once they work themselves into a hissy fit over anything, they extend it to everything, going full retarded obstructionist on the normal workings of govt.

Yes, they're extortionists. Tell me something I don't know.

That is to pretend he would protect Civil Liberties "if" he had the power to do so. Let's set aside the obvious question of if he does - why would he? The President has made it very clear that he supports these assaults on Civil Liberties.

Do you also support them?

 

[ivwshane]

Want to try that line with me? You who defended Obama not investigating Iraq? Who defends Obama for choosing the option to abuse his powers?

I warned the Republicans against what they had and what they supported and too many circled up the wagons in defense. Now that Obama is seen to be as bad or worse as his predecessor you do the same.

Obama is entirely responsible for what is currently happening. Congress authorized things it should not have, but there is no mandate that Congress can put on the Executive branch to do what has been done, no more than it can make a law saying the SCOTUS must find a case Constitutional or not. The NSA answers to the DNI which answers to the Executive Branch and Obama determines whether or not something will be done. Your Lord and Holy Prophet is THE one accountable in this situation.

I dare you to find where I was for this before I was against it, where I said the Republicans were doing the right thing with the Patriot and similar legislation AUTHORIZING such potential abuse.

This isn't about what is right or wrong for you, it's about defending Obama at all cost, you who make excuses for current wrong based on past abuses. Well it was wrong then, but it's now and this ugly bastard child is wholly Obama's and yours who support him.

Making excuses for him? Supporting him (regarding this issue)? Show me where I've supported him or made excuses for him regarding this issue.

Everyone responsible is not excused. As soon as I heard about what was being proposed many years ago it was clear who was responsible for the legislation.

What I am objecting to is the attitude by him and others that Obama is somehow less than in charge of the NSA, when he clearly is. Congress may have cleared this sort of action, which is wrong, but if someone tells another that he MAY do something it is not MUST. I also object to diversion by past example, or "well the Republicans then..." argument. Great. They deserve scorn, but that does not mitigate present circumstances or acts.

Tell me, in the present day, the hear and now, who can say to the NSA "Do this" or "Do not do this" even if given permission? It isn't the Republicans or Feinstein or whomever, no more than Obama can be blamed for putting his hand to the legislation which allows funding for the NSAs action. In fact even that isn't quite the same because the President has the power of veto. When he signs the next approval by Congress and shows a somber face and concerns for our privacy then turns and laughs about it, remember that.

No, "NSA listening to phone calls without warrants" right now is the act of one person, the President of the United States.

If someone wants to start a thread about supporting legislation I'll be glad to jump on anyone who supports that.

So your answer is that the president should be using executive orders to skirt the law? Thats lacking some serious foresight right there.

That is to pretend he would protect Civil Liberties "if" he had the power to do so. Let's set aside the obvious question of if he does - why would he? The President has made it very clear that he supports these assaults on Civil Liberties.

Do you also support them?

That's the fucking point! Obama does support this, just as the republicans do! People want Obama to do the opposite of what he supports and yet they don't put that same desire to their own team. It's hypocrisy at its finest!

"My team" passed this shit that I am now against and now I want it fixed by the leader of the other team by having him ignore the law.

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

 

[glenn1]

Let’s count the defenses offered for Obama so far. Match the response below to the person who uttered it.


1. The Republicans are to blame for renewing FISA.
2. The Republicans are to blame for not softening and narrowing Patriot Act.
3. All 3 branches are too blame, Congress is at fault due to lack of oversight.
4. I voted for Obama but this is wrong, he should stop this shit right away.
5. Republicans have not been doing their job of holding government accountable.
6. McCain or Romney would have been worse.
7. Republicans are to blame because if Obama didn’t engage in warrantless spying, they’d blame him politically.
8. Republicans won’t “take some fucking responsibility for the shit ‘your team’ voted for.”
9. Passing the Patriot Act has nothing to do with the NSA systematically spying on all Americans without warrants and this should not have been done.
10. Obama shouldn’t issue an Executive order unless it’s “really fucking important.”
11. Republicans are to blame because they’re just desperate to blame Obama for something.
12. The program is the “authoritarian right wing’s brainchild.”
13. Both sides are equally culpable.
14. Obama is under near compulsion from Congress.
15. This was a terrible fvcking idea and Obama should be ashamed of himself for letting it happen and not stopping it now that he’s found out.
16. Can’t alter current law while GOP controls House.
17. Republicans are extortionists.

Answer Key:

(1) Ivwshane; (2) Jhhnn; (3) Wreckem; (4) Nobody on the progressive side; (5) ivwshane; (6) Jaskalas; (7) Jhhnn; (8) ivwshane; (9) Nobody on the progressive side; (10) ivwshane; (11) Jhhnn; (12) Jhhnn; (13) NesuD; (14) Jhhnn; (15) Nobody on the progressive side; (16) Jhhnn; (17) Jhhnn


Now let’s look at some of what the other side has to say. Match these responses to the person who uttered them:

1. This is treason and Obama should be hanged.
2. This rises to the level of “high crime and misdemeanor” and Obama should be impeached and removed from office.
3. This only happened because Obama is black.
4. I think this policy is wrong and Obama should stop doing it.

If you answered (1) Nobody; (2) Nobody; (3) Nobody; and (4) Everyone, then give yourself a prize.

 

[OutHouse]

it does not matter who was in office when this shit got into "law" but what does matter is that Obama is in charge and not only did he keep the program but expanded it. he is a traitor to the constitutions and the union and should be impeached.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Ivy, no executive order is needed. Obama is not required to do what he's doing.

 

[ivwshane]

Ivy, no executive order is needed. Obama is not required to do what he's doing.

You aren't getting the point. Obama supports it. Where is the opposition going to come from? A small minority of dems?
If people on the right are complaining about this then they should be complaining about their representatives that support this shit, that's what the left is and has been doing.

Expecting the guy that supports the program to change it is retarded.

 

[ivwshane]

Now let’s look at some of what the other side has to say. Match these responses to the person who uttered them:

1. This is treason and Obama should be hanged.
You clearly don't know what treason means.
2. This rises to the level of “high crime and misdemeanor” and Obama should be impeached and removed from office.
Its not a crime when it's legal.
3. This only happened because Obama is black.
wtf are you talking about?
4. I think this policy is wrong and Obama should stop doing it.
Actually I've pretty much said this but I know it won't stop because he supports it.

If you answered (1) Nobody; (2) Nobody; (3) Nobody; and (4) Everyone, then give yourself a prize.

So your point was what exactly?

 

[colonelciller]

Each and every one of you who discusses or describes this issue in terms of Left vs. Right, or D vs. R, is a grade-A f'n moron.

this

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You aren't getting the point. Obama supports it. Where is the opposition going to come from? A small minority of dems?
If people on the right are complaining about this then they should be complaining about their representatives that support this shit, that's what the left is and has been doing.

Expecting the guy that supports the program to change it is retarded.

Of course they should complain and we agree, but at this moment it seems that Congress want aware of the scope of the program and were lied to. That does not mitigate their involvement by legal authorization. No indeed, but only one man could have taken the potential and made it reality. It was bad enough with what we knew when this started but it has been embraced and built upon by the one who could. Now we know more and probably just some of the extent of this program, and it's clearly more than we anticipated. Congress said Ok and turned their back, but Obama who was supposedly against this lied and acted to make things worse.

He has the buck.

Edit- feel free to excoriate anyone who supports this, but note my comments are largely about those who make excuses and here that's been the apologist who portrays Obama as a helpless victim. I'm not buying that.

 

[FerrelGeek]

I see you saw my call in the other thread and rose yet again to defend Obama's honor.

BTW, it is all Obama's fault that the NSA is doing this. HTH.

While I agree that FISA is bullshit it was billed as and supposed to be strictly about intercepting foreign communications NOT recording and saving every single domestic digital communication.

How anyone can argue that this is even remotely constitutional, regardless of what law has passed, is beyond me.

Remember that Congress allows (which is one issue) but it does not mandate. The NSA does not work in a vacuum, it ultimately answers to Obama and it he who is therefore ultimately responsible for this practice actually happening. He took potential to reality.

Exactly this. Obama could've prevented this if he truly wanted to. He's put people in place to do the things he's wanted to do with our government, but stays disengaged from it all so he can feign ignorance / outrage if / when the deeds of his subordinates come to light. And the witless masses buy it every time.

That doesn't mean that congress should get a buy on this, but Obama is the CEO of our federal government. He has some latitude in how to execute the laws that congress enacts. He could've been pounding the drum on this for the last four years, but no, under his watch this has gone beyond what was intended.

 

[colonelciller]

to those blaming "the other party"

you are brainwashed troll doing exactly what big gov. wants...fighting amongst yourselves, blaming each other... never looking and never seeing and never understanding that the only problem is with the establishment itself.

democratic and republican parties are 2 flavors of the same company, same mindset enacting the same global dominance and perpetual war policies since WWII.

 

[thraashman]

Now let’s look at some of what the other side has to say. Match these responses to the person who uttered them:

1. This is treason and Obama should be hanged.
2. This rises to the level of “high crime and misdemeanor” and Obama should be impeached and removed from office.
3. This only happened because Obama is black.
4. I think this policy is wrong and Obama should stop doing it.

If you answered (1) Nobody; (2) Nobody; (3) Nobody; and (4) Everyone, then give yourself a prize.

it does not matter who was in office when this shit got into "law" but what does matter is that Obama is in charge and not only did he keep the program but expanded it. he is a traitor to the constitutions and the union and should be impeached.

It's so rare that a refute to a stupid post full of lies appears immediately after, but this was well timed.

 

[007ELmO]

the constitution is going to change, the right to bear arms will be one of the first to go. The constitution will turn into the bible, something someone wrote 2000 years ago and it must be followed to a T - cut intelligent people a break.

 

[palehorse]

Bullshit, right now Obama is in charge of the NSA, the ball is in his court to do something about it. I have no problem pointing a finger at Bush for initiating the Patriot Act and other bad legislation, but he's been out of power for 4 1/2 years. It's up to Obama to either make the situation better or worse.

I didn't say anything that would contradict that in my last post.

Re-read it.

I was referring to the Blame Game being played by half the idiots in this thread.

 

[ivwshane]

Of course they should complain and we agree, but at this moment it seems that Congress want aware of the scope of the program and were lied to. That does not mitigate their involvement by legal authorization. No indeed, but only one man could have taken the potential and made it reality. It was bad enough with what we knew when this started but it has been embraced and built upon by the one who could. Now we know more and probably just some of the extent of this program, and it's clearly more than we anticipated. Congress said Ok and turned their back, but Obama who was supposedly against this lied and acted to make things worse.

He has the buck.

Edit- feel free to excoriate anyone who supports this, but note my comments are largely about those who make excuses and here that's been the apologist who portrays Obama as a helpless victim. I'm not buying that.

Obama supported this in the exact same way the republicans supported it. The republicans have just as much power to change this as Obama does.

Actually scratch that; republicans have the power to change this. Even if Obama issues an executive order changing the scope of the bill his EO only affects his admin, the next president could choose to ignore the executive order.

You know as well as I do that the correct and best course of action would be legislation prohibiting such actions anything short of that is just a game of chance.

 

[NesuD]

Let’s count the defenses offered for Obama so far. Match the response below to the person who uttered it.


1. The Republicans are to blame for renewing FISA.
2. The Republicans are to blame for not softening and narrowing Patriot Act.
3. All 3 branches are too blame, Congress is at fault due to lack of oversight.
4. I voted for Obama but this is wrong, he should stop this shit right away.
5. Republicans have not been doing their job of holding government accountable.
6. McCain or Romney would have been worse.
7. Republicans are to blame because if Obama didn’t engage in warrantless spying, they’d blame him politically.
8. Republicans won’t “take some fucking responsibility for the shit ‘your team’ voted for.”
9. Passing the Patriot Act has nothing to do with the NSA systematically spying on all Americans without warrants and this should not have been done.
10. Obama shouldn’t issue an Executive order unless it’s “really fucking important.”
11. Republicans are to blame because they’re just desperate to blame Obama for something.
12. The program is the “authoritarian right wing’s brainchild.”
13. Both sides are equally culpable.
14. Obama is under near compulsion from Congress.
15. This was a terrible fvcking idea and Obama should be ashamed of himself for letting it happen and not stopping it now that he’s found out.
16. Can’t alter current law while GOP controls House.
17. Republicans are extortionists.

Answer Key:

(1) Ivwshane; (2) Jhhnn; (3) Wreckem; (4) Nobody on the progressive side; (5) ivwshane; (6) Jaskalas; (7) Jhhnn; (8) ivwshane; (9) Nobody on the progressive side; (10) ivwshane; (11) Jhhnn; (12) Jhhnn; (13) NesuD; (14) Jhhnn; (15) Nobody on the progressive side; (16) Jhhnn; (17) Jhhnn


Now let’s look at some of what the other side has to say. Match these responses to the person who uttered them:

1. This is treason and Obama should be hanged.
2. This rises to the level of “high crime and misdemeanor” and Obama should be impeached and removed from office.
3. This only happened because Obama is black.
4. I think this policy is wrong and Obama should stop doing it.

If you answered (1) Nobody; (2) Nobody; (3) Nobody; and (4) Everyone, then give yourself a prize.

Nice try with number thirteen. If you choose to interpret that as a defense of Obama then you are living in an alternate reality. Accusing both parties of being guilty in this matter hardly constitutes a defense. It actually means they both need to go down for it. No where in my post do I let them off the hook for anything. This isn't a party problem now it is a federal government problem that crosses party lines. Both parties are defending this crap and they both need to be shown the door for it. That is what I am saying.

 

[monovillage]

Let’s count the defenses offered for Obama so far. Match the response below to the person who uttered it.


1. The Republicans are to blame for renewing FISA.
2. The Republicans are to blame for not softening and narrowing Patriot Act.
3. All 3 branches are too blame, Congress is at fault due to lack of oversight.
4. I voted for Obama but this is wrong, he should stop this shit right away.
5. Republicans have not been doing their job of holding government accountable.
6. McCain or Romney would have been worse.
7. Republicans are to blame because if Obama didn’t engage in warrantless spying, they’d blame him politically.
8. Republicans won’t “take some fucking responsibility for the shit ‘your team’ voted for.”
9. Passing the Patriot Act has nothing to do with the NSA systematically spying on all Americans without warrants and this should not have been done.
10. Obama shouldn’t issue an Executive order unless it’s “really fucking important.”
11. Republicans are to blame because they’re just desperate to blame Obama for something.
12. The program is the “authoritarian right wing’s brainchild.”
13. Both sides are equally culpable.
14. Obama is under near compulsion from Congress.
15. This was a terrible fvcking idea and Obama should be ashamed of himself for letting it happen and not stopping it now that he’s found out.
16. Can’t alter current law while GOP controls House.
17. Republicans are extortionists.

Answer Key:

(1) Ivwshane; (2) Jhhnn; (3) Wreckem; (4) Nobody on the progressive side; (5) ivwshane; (6) Jaskalas; (7) Jhhnn; (8) ivwshane; (9) Nobody on the progressive side; (10) ivwshane; (11) Jhhnn; (12) Jhhnn; (13) NesuD; (14) Jhhnn; (15) Nobody on the progressive side; (16) Jhhnn; (17) Jhhnn


Now let’s look at some of what the other side has to say. Match these responses to the person who uttered them:

1. This is treason and Obama should be hanged.
2. This rises to the level of “high crime and misdemeanor” and Obama should be impeached and removed from office.
3. This only happened because Obama is black.
4. I think this policy is wrong and Obama should stop doing it.

If you answered (1) Nobody; (2) Nobody; (3) Nobody; and (4) Everyone, then give yourself a prize.

This pretty much nails it.

 

[waggy]

Let’s count the defenses offered for Obama so far. Match the response below to the person who uttered it.


1. The Republicans are to blame for renewing FISA.
2. The Republicans are to blame for not softening and narrowing Patriot Act.
3. All 3 branches are too blame, Congress is at fault due to lack of oversight.
4. I voted for Obama but this is wrong, he should stop this shit right away.
5. Republicans have not been doing their job of holding government accountable.
6. McCain or Romney would have been worse.
7. Republicans are to blame because if Obama didn’t engage in warrantless spying, they’d blame him politically.
8. Republicans won’t “take some fucking responsibility for the shit ‘your team’ voted for.”
9. Passing the Patriot Act has nothing to do with the NSA systematically spying on all Americans without warrants and this should not have been done.
10. Obama shouldn’t issue an Executive order unless it’s “really fucking important.”
11. Republicans are to blame because they’re just desperate to blame Obama for something.
12. The program is the “authoritarian right wing’s brainchild.”
13. Both sides are equally culpable.
14. Obama is under near compulsion from Congress.
15. This was a terrible fvcking idea and Obama should be ashamed of himself for letting it happen and not stopping it now that he’s found out.
16. Can’t alter current law while GOP controls House.
17. Republicans are extortionists.

Answer Key:

(1) Ivwshane; (2) Jhhnn; (3) Wreckem; (4) Nobody on the progressive side; (5) ivwshane; (6) Jaskalas; (7) Jhhnn; (8) ivwshane; (9) Nobody on the progressive side; (10) ivwshane; (11) Jhhnn; (12) Jhhnn; (13) NesuD; (14) Jhhnn; (15) Nobody on the progressive side; (16) Jhhnn; (17) Jhhnn


Now let’s look at some of what the other side has to say. Match these responses to the person who uttered them:

1. This is treason and Obama should be hanged.
2. This rises to the level of “high crime and misdemeanor” and Obama should be impeached and removed from office.
3. This only happened because Obama is black.
4. I think this policy is wrong and Obama should stop doing it.

If you answered (1) Nobody; (2) Nobody; (3) Nobody; and (4) Everyone, then give yourself a prize.

lol. god damn

though i think 4 and 13 are not defending Obama.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Obama supported this in the exact same way the republicans supported it. The republicans have just as much power to change this as Obama does.

Actually scratch that; republicans have the power to change this. Even if Obama issues an executive order changing the scope of the bill his EO only affects his admin, the next president could choose to ignore the executive order.

You know as well as I do that the correct and best course of action would be legislation prohibiting such actions anything short of that is just a game of chance.

The best course of action is for Congress to toss the legislation. The next best is for Obama not to pursue the option of doing it. You keep talking about signing statements. They aren't needed. There is no compelling mandate.

 

[BoberFett]

It's hilarious to watch the zealots attempt to deflect everything at the Republicans. As much as the Republicans are at fault, the Democrats including Obama are just as much to blame.

 

[davmat787]

 

[BoberFett]

The dollar isn't what it used to be. Inflation, ya know. A couple cents stops at a Obama, but most of it rolls right onto some peon that he can blame.