Obama lays down new rules: Stricter limits to risk-taking, cap in bank sizes, more

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AMDScooter

Senior member
Jan 30, 2001
303
3
81
Oh goody. The Won has decided to go after those evil banks. Even those whom have already paid back their loans with interest, never took loans and those forced to take loans. No way at all this new "tax" will git passed on to the consumer right?

Ya, go after the bankers. Don't change a thing about the federally imposed affirmative action standards forced on mortgage lenders. And especially don't bring up Fannie or Freddie because they are performing swimmingly backed by dollars loaned to us by China.

Article is a lil dated. But the info still stands today.

The Government Did It

The financial peril of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--the government-sponsored, government-regulated mortgage giants regarded as instrumental in solving the nation's mortgage market problems--has one benefit. It should help expose the lie that today's financial problems are the result of an insufficiently regulated market.

For too long, the refrain has gone, Congress and the administration have been asleep at the wheel when they should have been steering the economy by expanding government control over the housing and financial markets. Economist Paul Krugman slams the administration's "free-market ideology"; he urges Bush to "reverse course now" and "seek expanded regulation."

All this overlooks a crucial fact: There has been no free market in housing or finance. Government has long exercised massive control over the housing and financial markets--including its creation of Fannie Mae (nyse: FNM - news - people ) and Freddie Mac (nyse: FRE - news - people ) (which have now amassed $5 trillion in liabilities)--leading to many of the problems being blamed on the free market today.

Consider the low lending standards that were a significant component of the mortgage crisis. Lenders made millions of loans to borrowers who, under normal market conditions, weren't able to pay them off. These decisions have cost lenders, especially leading financial institutions, tens of billions of dollars.

It is popular to take low lending standards as proof that the free market has failed, that the system that is supposed to reward productive behavior and punish unproductive behavior has failed to do so. Yet this claim ignores that for years irrational lending standards have been forced on lenders by the federal Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) and rewarded (at taxpayers' expense) by multiple government bodies.

The CRA forces banks to make loans in poor communities, loans that banks may otherwise reject as financially unsound. Under the CRA, banks must convince a set of bureaucracies that they are not engaging in discrimination, a charge that the act encourages any CRA-recognized community group to bring forward. Otherwise, any merger or expansion the banks attempt will likely be denied. But what counts as discrimination?

According to one enforcement agency, "discrimination exists when a lender's underwriting policies contain arbitrary or outdated criteria that effectively disqualify many urban or lower-income minority applicants." Note that these "arbitrary or outdated criteria" include most of the essentials of responsible lending: income level, income verification, credit history and savings history--the very factors lenders are now being criticized for ignoring.

The government has promoted bad loans not just through the stick of the CRA but through the carrot of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which purchase, securitize and guarantee loans made by lenders and whose debt is itself implicitly guaranteed by the federal government. This setup created an easy, artificial profit opportunity for lenders to wrap up bundles of subprime loans and sell them to a government-backed buyer whose primary mandate was to "promote homeownership," not to apply sound lending standards.

Of course, lenders not only sold billions of dollars in suspect loans to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, contributing to their present debacle, they also retained some subprime loans themselves and sold others to Wall Street--leading to the huge banking losses we have been witnessing for months. Is this, then, a free market failure? Again, no.

In a free market, lending large amounts of money to low-income, low-credit borrowers with no down payment would quickly prove disastrous. But the Federal Reserve Board's inflationary policy of artificially low interest rates made investing in subprime loans extraordinarily profitable. Subprime borrowers who would normally not be able to pay off their expensive houses could do so, thanks to payments that plummeted along with Fed rates. And the inflationary housing boom meant homeowners rarely defaulted; so long as housing prices went up, even the worst-credit borrowers could always sell or refinance.

Thus, Fed policy turned dubious investments into fabulous successes. Bankers who made the deals lured investors and were showered with bonuses. Concerns about the possibility of mass defaults and foreclosures were assuaged by an administration whose president declared: "We want everybody in America to own their own home."

Further promoting a sense of security, every major financial institution in America--both commercial banks and investment banks--was implicitly protected by the quasi-official policy of "too big to fail." The "too big to fail" doctrine holds that, when they risk insolvency, large financial institutions (like Countrywide or Bear Stearns) must be bailed out through a network of government bodies including the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Federal Home Loan Banks and the Federal Reserve.

All of these government factors contributed to creating a situation in which millions of people were buying homes they could not afford, in which the participants experienced the illusion of prosperity, in which billions upon billions of dollars were going into bad investments. Eventually the bubble burst; the rest is history.

Given that our government was behind the wheel, influencing every aspect of the mortgage crisis, it is absurd to call today's situation the result of insufficient regulation.

We do not need more regulation or economic "steering"--laws or bureaucrats dictating to financiers and investors the kind of innovation they may or may not engage in. If that were the solution to economic problems, then Hugo Chavez would preside over the world's healthiest economy in Venezuela. What we need to do is remove the government's power to coerce, bribe, reward and bail out irrational decisions. The unfree market has failed. It's time for a truly free market.

Yaron Brook is managing director of BH Equity Research and executive director of the Ayn Rand Institute.

Hey, I seem to remember loaning a boatload of money to keep Bamma's UAW pals in their jobs at GM & Chrysler. Wonder why there is no speaky of a "tax" on them also. [/end sarcasm]
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
I'll state this one more time because the point was lost the first time I stated it, or ignored because it's not really a refutable point. Most of the $117 billion that taxpayers are projected to lose on TARP is non-payment from AIG, and the money we gave to AIG went straight through AIG and out to these very same banks, to cover the losses these banks sustained as a result of foolish risks they took. So no, the banks have *not* paid off everything they owe the taxpayrers under TARP, and they have furthermore made a killing in the market last year with the TARP money they received. Personally I want to see taxpayers get paid back every dime we put out for the TARP, and I can't think of a better source to get it from than these banks.

- wolf
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Just wait until the government says you are taking too much risk with your 401k and requires you to save in treasury bonds.

Simply a bad precedent to set.
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Just wait until the government says you are taking too much risk with your 401k and requires you to save in treasury bonds.

Simply a bad president to set.

Heh...

My wonderful state government in Illinois decided they would be responsible for us citizens and provide savings investments for parents to save up and pay for their children to attend a state college.

Well, when the markets crashed our state government lost nearly all the money all the parents gave to them!

Government is not always a safe investment, but dang if they believe they are...
 

AMDScooter

Senior member
Jan 30, 2001
303
3
81
I'll state this one more time because the point was lost the first time I stated it, or ignored because it's not really a refutable point. Most of the $117 billion that taxpayers are projected to lose on TARP is non-payment from AIG, and the money we gave to AIG went straight through AIG and out to these very same banks, to cover the losses these banks sustained as a result of foolish risks they took. So no, the banks have *not* paid off everything they owe the taxpayrers under TARP, and they have furthermore made a killing in the market last year with the TARP money they received. Personally I want to see taxpayers get paid back every dime we put out for the TARP, and I can't think of a better source to get it from than these banks.

- wolf

I'm not seeing where I made any sort of claim that resembles what you are apparently arguing with yourself about. Apparently repeatedly. This is what I said in regard to said banks:

Oh goody. The Won has decided to go after those evil banks. Even those whom have already paid back their loans with interest, never took loans and those forced to take loans. No way at all this new "tax" will git passed on to the consumer right?

Perhaps you can show me where I claimed AIG has paid off it's loan. I'm not seeing it. I'd like to see the monies paid back also.

I don't need any useless "feel good/do nothing" legislation that will only ultimately cost US more $$.
 

jjmIII

Diamond Member
Mar 13, 2001
8,399
1
81
I'll state this one more time because the point was lost the first time I stated it, or ignored because it's not really a refutable point. Most of the $117 billion that taxpayers are projected to lose on TARP is non-payment from AIG, and the money we gave to AIG went straight through AIG and out to these very same banks, to cover the losses these banks sustained as a result of foolish risks they took. So no, the banks have *not* paid off everything they owe the taxpayrers under TARP, and they have furthermore made a killing in the market last year with the TARP money they received. Personally I want to see taxpayers get paid back every dime we put out for the TARP, and I can't think of a better source to get it from than these banks.

- wolf

word!
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
I'll state this one more time because the point was lost the first time I stated it, or ignored because it's not really a refutable point. Most of the $117 billion that taxpayers are projected to lose on TARP is non-payment from AIG, and the money we gave to AIG went straight through AIG and out to these very same banks, to cover the losses these banks sustained as a result of foolish risks they took. So no, the banks have *not* paid off everything they owe the taxpayrers under TARP, and they have furthermore made a killing in the market last year with the TARP money they received. Personally I want to see taxpayers get paid back every dime we put out for the TARP, and I can't think of a better source to get it from than these banks.

- wolf

I understand AIG won't be paying 'us' back. But as to your claim that the AIG money was paid "to these very same banks" is hard to establish, no?

AIG records are sealed until 2018. Now why is that?

http://www.businessinsider.com/sec-orders-aig-info-sealed-until-november-2018-2010-1

I bet some of the AIG money went to (foreign) banks and investors other than those getting hit with the new tax. If so, the net effect is 'we' are ponying up money to reimburse the US goverment for money they spent covering other's investment losses, and they are trying to hide that fact.

Fern
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,868
6,397
126
Sounds good, especially this part: "...would also bar institutions from proprietary trading operations, unrelated to serving customers, for their own profit." That is a conflict of interest with a potential for all kinds of shenanigrany.

Banks are no different to the Economy than Roads are to Transportation. They are Infrastructure essential for the basic workings of their respective part. The main difference between the 2 is that Roads are essentially Static needing only maintenance, well served by a slow and bureaucratic form of Management at the heart of Government. While Banks are more Dynamic needing to adjust regularly and often swiftly to meet Market Needs, thus they are best served by the Private Sector.

Banks are likely to pour $millions more into lobbying to stop this and, with the recent SC ruling, the amount of Ads and other Publicity against this will likely exceed that of the Healthcare debate. I wouldn't hold my breath to see this actually Pass in any useful condition after the whores receive their marching orders.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
Common sense regulations like this SHOULD already be in place.

The reality is we need to find a good balance between too much intervention and too little. It sounds like Obama is trying to seek that with this legislation. More power to him. He should have started his presidency here before diving head first into healthcare.

I don't think Republicans or Conservatives have any leg to stand on with regards to this economy. Their track record is deplorable.
 

AMDScooter

Senior member
Jan 30, 2001
303
3
81
And how about the CRA.. Fannie.. Freddie..? No changes needed at the root cause of the mortgage meltdown? It was not the banks fault the fed forced them to write bad loans by imposing affirmative action type regulations/quotas on their lending practices. So instead of going after the root cause let's punish banks who will in turn pass that form of punishment on to their customers.. us. Be sure to thank Mr. Hopenchange for your additional banking costs if he gets his "feel good" legislation passed.

How about GM.. Chrysler? No "tax" on them? They still allowed to be too big to fail? Maybe the bankers should join the SEIU as they seem exempt from just about every piece of Bamma legislation that hits your wallet.

The hypocrisy is startling. If bamma wants to poo-poo on the banks in an attempt to appear populist and thinks it's going to get the independents back in his court he's lost his mind. Period.

33bil bankers...

**edit to add**

Barack Obama (D) Top Contributors

This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2008 election cycle. The organizations themselves did not donate , rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates.

Because of contribution limits, organizations that bundle together many individual contributions are often among the top donors to presidential candidates. These contributions can come from the organization's members or employees (and their families). The organization may support one candidate, or hedge its bets by supporting multiple candidates. Groups with national networks of donors - like EMILY's List and Club for Growth - make for particularly big bundlers.

University of California $1,591,395
Goldman Sachs $994,795
Harvard University $854,747
Microsoft Corp $833,617
Google Inc $803,436
Citigroup Inc $701,290
JPMorgan Chase & Co $695,132
Time Warner $590,084
Sidley Austin LLP $588,598
Stanford University $586,557
National Amusements Inc $551,683
UBS AG $543,219
Wilmerhale Llp $542,618
Skadden, Arps et al $530,839
IBM Corp $528,822
Columbia University $528,302
Morgan Stanley $514,881
General Electric $499,130
US Government $494,820
Latham & Watkins $493,835
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,868
6,397
126
And how about the CRA.. Fannie.. Freddie..? No changes needed at the root cause of the mortgage meltdown? It was not the banks fault the fed forced them to write bad loans by imposing affirmative action type regulations/quotas on their lending practices. So instead of going after the root cause let's punish banks who will in turn pass that form of punishment on to their customers.. us. Be sure to thank Mr. Hopenchange for your additional banking costs if he gets his "feel good" legislation passed.

How about GM.. Chrysler? No "tax" on them? They still allowed to be too big to fail? Maybe the bankers should join the SEIU as they seem exempt from just about every piece of Bamma legislation that hits your wallet.

The hypocrisy is startling. If bamma wants to poo-poo on the banks in an attempt to appear populist and thinks it's going to get the independents back in his court he's lost his mind. Period.

33bil bankers...

**edit to add**

Barack Obama (D) Top Contributors

/facepalm
 

AMDScooter

Senior member
Jan 30, 2001
303
3
81
I'm sure it does, but it seems you are amongst them.

I'm not the one who chose to replace a rational retort with a /facepalm. Perhaps you'd like to take another try at it?

If so, please include an explanation as to why the root cause is not getting addressed. The banks were regulating themselves just fine until the gubberment stepped in and mandated whom they had to lend to. It was gubberment intervention that kicked open the door for all the bad loans. Sure some greedy f*ckers took advantage, no debate there. But it was gubberment interventions and their quotas that kicked it off. Followed up by Fannie and Freddie's (two GSA's) and their bought off congressional representatives whom started the domino's falling. When questioned about Fannie and Freddie.. they acted indignant and this is what they had to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

Sorry if it puts the kibosh on the "blame & regulate the banks" rhetoric.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
I understand AIG won't be paying 'us' back. But as to your claim that the AIG money was paid "to these very same banks" is hard to establish, no?

AIG records are sealed until 2018. Now why is that?

http://www.businessinsider.com/sec-orders-aig-info-sealed-until-november-2018-2010-1

I bet some of the AIG money went to (foreign) banks and investors other than those getting hit with the new tax. If so, the net effect is 'we' are ponying up money to reimburse the US goverment for money they spent covering other's investment losses, and they are trying to hide that fact.

Fern

Some of the banks *were* foreign, but I don't care. All of the bank's identities are not known, and specific dollar breakdowns are not known. However, four of the major ones are known: Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch (now BofA), Deutsch Bank (foreign) and Societe Generale (foreign).

This isn't about getting every exact penny out of every exact instutition that got money from AIG. There are a number of arguable points if you expect the bill to be precise in that regard. For example, technically you could back the auto money out of the tax. Except that the auto collapse was caused by poor management on the autos PLUS a dry up of the credit market which caused people to stop buying cars. Yet we cannot get the money out of the autos to cover their part of this, but you can from the banks.

You could also include smaller banks in the tax because many smaller banks made unwise loans, but the smaller banks are struggling.

The tax is a somewhat blunt instrument. It's purpose is to get taxpayers repaid, and to recoup it from the sector that is able to pay it, and that caused the meltdown. There are other responsible parties, depending on whose list you look at. If we could get the money out of George Bush, Bill Clinton, Alan Greenspan, the dems in Congress who supported Fannie/Freddie bad loans, or whoever else we think is responsible, that would be great, but it isn't realistic. If the tax is imprecise in its relation to TARP recepients, fine by me. I don't want the red ink for tax payers, this is the sector that is able to fix it, and there is plenty of blame in that sector to justify it, even among banks we did not get TARP money.

- wolf
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,868
6,397
126
I'm not the one who chose to replace a rational retort with a /facepalm. Perhaps you'd like to take another try at it?

If so, please include an explanation as to why the root cause is not getting addressed. The banks were regulating themselves just fine until the gubberment stepped in and mandated whom they had to lend to. It was gubberment intervention that kicked open the door for all the bad loans. Sure some greedy f*ckers took advantage, no debate there. But it was gubberment interventions and their quotas that kicked it off. Followed up by Fannie and Freddie's (two GSA's) and their bought off congressional representatives whom started the domino's falling. When questioned about Fannie and Freddie.. they acted indignant and this is what they had to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

Sorry if it puts the kibosh on the "blame & regulate the banks" rhetoric.

Rational? Perhaps if Strawman arguments were now rational. Else /facepalm;
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Why cant congress just renact Glass Steagall? And for good measure give no exemptions?
 

AMDScooter

Senior member
Jan 30, 2001
303
3
81
Rational? Perhaps if Strawman arguments were now rational. Else /facepalm;

I'll simply take your evasiveness as you really have no response. Generally if posters think someone is employing a strawman they simply point it out. The best you seem to be able to muster in response to a coherent line of questions is /facepalm x2 and a strawman accusation you do not bother to attempt to qualify.

Nice not talking with ya though.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,163
136
Obama lays down new rules: Stricter limits to risk-taking, cap in bank sizes, more

Yawn... Is this like his MUST HAVE healthcare public option. Yaaawwnnn...

Nothing to see here... move on.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
NYC's mayor is pissed at this in a big way and bank stocks got hammered today.

Maybe it really is the right thing to do if that's who it pisses off.
 

Xellos2099

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2005
2,277
13
81
The record profit recently are made from borrowing money from fed for like 0.5% interest rate and then they turn around and purchase government bond with like 4-5% risk free interest.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Yet another set of measures that, as presented by the dear leader, will never see the light of day. It would kill liquidity in several markets and mess up so many established structures and mechanisms that it simply isn't feasible. This is just the dear leader putting on a show to his base of lefties that he's cracking down on banks.

Actually, a lot of the firms that do a lot of proprietary business will just drop their Bank Holding Company status, making this a moot point. Others (like Goldman Sachs) would probably go back to being privately-held like they were 10 years ago - that would relieve them of the Sarbannes-Oxley boat anchor as well. While I understand the intent, this "solution" isn't really one at all.