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Obama Is No Longer a Good President

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If you want to make a product that people put in their bodies expect to have to tell whats in it.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that. They DO tell us what is in it: PG, nicotine, and food flavoring. That is no more or less than what is revealed in any legally required ingredients label on a food product. However, when was the last time you saw a food product whose label said, "warning, there are carbonyls in concentrations of 2 parts per trillion in this product." Yet we know, because of testing by the FDA and others, that many, many foods contain tiny amounts of carcinogens.

No, what you're suggesting is that e-cigs be held to a different standard than any food product, or any product for that matter.
 
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that. They DO tell us what is in it: PG, nicotine, and food flavoring. That is no more or less than what is revealed in any legally required ingredients label on a food product. However, when was the last time you saw a food product whose label said, "warning, there are carbonyls in concentrations of 2 parts per trillion in this product." Yet we know, because of testing by the FDA and others, that many, many foods contain tiny amounts of carcinogens.

No, what you're suggesting is that e-cigs be held to a different standard than any food product, or any product for that matter.


diacetyl is only a risk when inhaled.
 
Based on what scientific evidence? Since most "juice" formulations are kept secret we really can't say if it is better than smoking traditional cigarettes yet.
You and JStorm need to quit the faux outrage on ecigs, seriously. If you are that worried about the ingredients, just make your own.
https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic...a_you_can_make_diy_ejuice_its_stupidly_cheap/

Also, these faux concerns about chemicals, just google "diacetyl free vape juice". There are tons of places that don't put it in their mixes.

Yes, I know we've become such a lazy country that kids are too lazy to make their own. But it's not like it's a secret on how to make your own ecig and vape juice, it's dam easy.
 
You and JStorm need to quit the faux outrage on ecigs, seriously. If you are that worried about the ingredients, just make your own.
https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic...a_you_can_make_diy_ejuice_its_stupidly_cheap/

Also, these faux concerns about chemicals, just google "diacetyl free vape juice". There are tons of places that don't put it in their mixes.

Yes, I know we've become such a lazy country that kids are too lazy to make their own. But it's not like it's a secret on how to make your own ecig and vape juice, it's dam easy.

I'm in the rare position of agreeing with you here. The funny thing about the diecetyl issue is not only are there plenty of diacetyl free liquids but the majority are now diacetyl free. The reason is that a researcher, who is largely pro-ecig, discovered last year that over half the sweet flavored e-liquids contained diacetyl and published the result but not the names of the manufacturers. Instead, he warned each manufacturer to switch to diacetyl free flavorings and gave them one year, or else he would publish their identity and which of their products to avoid.

Also, strangely enough, the liquid manufacturer I buy from switched to diacetyl free flavorings way back in 2010 even before the research came out, simply because he was aware that some of these food flavorings had diacetyl in them even though the e-cig vapor hadn't yet been tested for it. This same manufacturer also discontinued its best selling flavor of liquid, called Atomic Cinnacide, because cinnamon bark contains something called coumarin which may damage the liver. The risk is extremely low, so low that there are no restrictions on the sale or use of cinnamon, but he dumped his best selling product anyway because he is self-regulating, hoping that the government will leave him alone.
 
yeah, I was making them a few years back with junk I pulled out of the lab--just some propylene Glycol (found in most things people buy from teh supermarket), ddH20 and nicotine extract. the nicotine was ordered (....but I did once work in a lab where we could acquire the pure shit. You know, the 1 teaspoon will kill a human type of stuff).

So, I tend to agree wtih Sp33dy on that side of it--however, the flavorings are the wild card. I personally think flavoring is dumbshittery and why bother smoking if you want crap to taste like strawberries? but that isn't the reality. Bottom line if companies are producing this stuff without regulation, it is being consumed, then the components really do need to be disclosed.

I understand that much of this is antics by Big Tobacco that has long been fighting ecigs while concurrently developing their products, positioning to take the market while stalling to write their own legislation to ensure that happens....and it did.

That is pure fuckery. It's a larger problem with corporate lobbying and the government, though. Either way, I see no reason that the consumer shouldn't know what they are smoking if this stuff is being sold. It's not like these companies can't afford their own GCMS and provide this data.


I think oils are stupid anyway. Vap the plants, yo.
 
diacetyl is only a risk when inhaled.

Er, yeah, I told you that very thing on the previous page. The scientific community has verified that some e-liquids contain diacetyl. We don't need to put them out of business by requiring them to test for something already verified. They just need to be required to use only diecetyl free food flavorings in their liquid. That regulation would totally eliminate the problem and not be burdensome to the manufacturers because they can easily switch flavorings. But that isn't the regulation. The regulation is to force them to pay for expensive testing. The reason being that the FDA was smacked down in court when they tried to ban e-cigs in 2010 and now they are trying to accomplish the same thing by an end around.
 
You and JStorm need to quit the faux outrage on ecigs, seriously. If you are that worried about the ingredients, just make your own.
https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic...a_you_can_make_diy_ejuice_its_stupidly_cheap/

Also, these faux concerns about chemicals, just google "diacetyl free vape juice". There are tons of places that don't put it in their mixes.

Yes, I know we've become such a lazy country that kids are too lazy to make their own. But it's not like it's a secret on how to make your own ecig and vape juice, it's dam easy.


Im more worried about a retard like you getting popcorn lung and having to pay for that myself via taxes.
 
BTW, in case this was unclear, cigarettes also contain diacetyl, in concentrations 10-100x what is found in e-cig vapor. Funny though it has almost never been mentioned in connection with cigarettes, probably because all the other bad stuff in cig smoke is accounting for 99.9999% of the health problems caused by cigarettes. Actually that is an exaggeration because in spite of the diecytal in cig smoke, cigarettes have never been linked to popcorn lung disease.

The fact that e-cig users are getting a small fraction of one bad thing in cig smoke, which thing is the least likely to cause an actual health problem, now THAT is a big issue. Even though this marginal risk is also totally avoidable, still it's somehow a big thing.

Here is what the researcher who originally discovered the diecytal has to say about the magnitude of this risk:

http://www.ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php/whats-new/whatsnew-2015/236-da2

In conclusion, the article is creating false impressions and exaggerates the potential risk from diacetyl and acetyl propionyl exposure through e-cigarettes. They failed to mention that these chemicals are present in tobacco cigarette smoke and violated a classical toxicological principle that the amount determines the toxicity and the risk.

I have been a strong supporter of removing any diacetyl and acetyl propionyl from e-cigarettes. I maintain the same position today, despite being criticized. These chemicals should not be used in e-liquids. However, we should responsibly and realistically assess the situation. Smokers need to be informed about the risk from continuing smoking versus a risk coming from use of diacetyl containing e-liquids. We should not forget that the risk from discouraging smokers to use e-cigarettes as a smoking cessation tool is higher than the risk of being exposed to diacetyl and acetyl propionyl at the average levels found in this study.

This last point bears special emphasis. In the field of public health, there is a theory that it is actually OK to somewhat exaggerate certain risks because it promotes public health. Leaving aside the ethics of this doctrine, it certainly does NOT apply to exaggerating the risks of something that is being used to stop the use of something 1000 fold worse. These exaggerations have deadly consequences.
 
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I guess the ecig manufacturers fucked up by putting it in the solution in the first place then. Gave people like me ammunition to send them to communist gayafication camps run by fema. All the more reason to give them oversight.
 
we should also not ignore that kids are ecig-ing ONLY. They also smoke regular cigs at a higher rate then nonsmokers.

That site you keep going to is industry.
 
we should also not ignore that kids are ecig-ing ONLY. They also smoke regular cigs at a higher rate then nonsmokers.

That site you keep going to is industry.

Ah yes, the so-called gateway effect, propelled by a favorite fallacy of propagandists: the conflation of correlation with causation. Some of us still remember being lied to about marijuana's so-called gateway effect, where it supposedly caused people to use harder drugs. This now fully debunked lie has persisted through the better part of a century and has been a key plank in the continued prohibition of marijuana.

If we really, truly want to be cautious about public health, we should studiously avoid exaggerating risks, and make sure our research is sound before making sweeping pronouncements.
 
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Ah yes, the so-called gateway effect, propelled by a favorite fallacy of propagandists: the conflation of correlation with causation. Some of us still remember being lied to about marijuana's so-called gateway effect, where it supposedly caused people use to harder drugs. This now fully debunked lie has persisted through the better part of a century and has been a key plank in the continued prohibition of marijuana.

If we really, truly want to be cautious about public health, we should studiously avoid exaggerating risks, and make sure our research is sound before making sweeping pronouncements.

Marijuana did turn me onto mushrooms (rarely)and the Grateful Dead (unhealthy dose by any measure)....so there's that.
 
ecigs turned me onto ecigs! All anyone is saying is people are smoking ecigs. Because they think they are safe. They arent.
 
we should also not ignore that kids are ecig-ing ONLY. They also smoke regular cigs at a higher rate then nonsmokers.

That site you keep going to is industry.

but not to discount this.

I see that especially with nicotine, the most addictive known substance next to opiates, getting kids hooked on that shit with bubblegum and cherry flavors is rather hellacious.

While the fears of candy cigarettes turned out to be unfounded, e-cigs have fucking nicotine in them.

world's of difference.
 
Im more worried about a retard like you getting popcorn lung and having to pay for that myself via taxes.
Popcorn lung? hahaha. Someone hasn't done their homework on this. Let's add more data to this discussion:

Tobacco cigarettes, for instance, have also long been known to contain diacetyl — at levels over 100 times those found in electronic cigarettes — yet earlier tobacco studies found that even these levels were not enough to cause popcorn lung in smokers.

"The Harvard study is a perfect example of something that happens over and over," says Michael Siegel, a physician and professor at Boston University. "It creates a scare by omitting a key piece of information, undermining the public's appreciation of the severe hazards of tobacco smoking and leading to perverse public health outcomes." Siegel, who studied under Glantz in San Francisco, has spent much of his career fighting tobacco companies: testifying against them in court, pushing for smoking bans in bars and restaurants, advocating for policies making it illegal to market cigarettes to youth. When e-cigs first started gaining popularity, he was skeptical, believing them to be little more than a product designed to mask the dangers of smoking. Today, however, he has become one of the most outspoken supporters of the idea that e-cigs can succeed where the crusade against smoking has come up short. Given that the current e-cig market is dominated by habitual smokers, Siegel calls the U.S. government's reluctance to allow them to be pitched as a safer alternative "irresponsible." "Even the worst case scenario — that a current pack a day smoker replaces a single cigarette with an e-cig — is better than where we are right now," he says. "All conclusive evidence shows that these are safer, so why aren't we encouraging smokers to make the shift? If we did, we'd be saving millions of lives and talking about the greatest public health moment of our generation."
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...its-much-safer-to-vape-20151221#ixzz47vrzSDqU
and
In fact, Siegel crunched the numbers and revealed a shocking truth. “Daily exposure to Diacetyl from smoking is therefore 750 times higher, on average than exposure to Diacetyl from vaping.
http://www.churnmag.com/news/mainstream-media-busted-for-lying-about-vaping-link-to-popcorn-lung/
So cigarettes, which contain 750 times the diacetyl of ecigs, are not causing popcorn lung - yet you want us to be concerned about popcorn lung? You are full of shit, nobody is even getting popcorn lung from regular cigarettes! /hilarity ensues

If you really want to help the world, get more people to completely stop cigarettes and use ecigs which would save a shitload more lives than your phony lie about popcorn lung. How's that for saving your silly tax money, champ? :biggrin:
 
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ecigs turned me onto ecigs! All anyone is saying is people are smoking ecigs. Because they think they are safe. They arent.

I'm sorry Jstorm but you are making pronouncements about a topic you may have read an article of two about but otherwise you know very little. Since I know you will continue with these intellectually dishonest one liners no matter what I say or link, I'll just leave it at that.
 
Marijuana did turn me onto mushrooms (rarely)and the Grateful Dead (unhealthy dose by any measure)....so there's that.

Yes, but there are actual studies which show the most likely explanation for such a correlation is that whatever personality or life situation factors which caused the marijuana use also caused the use of the other substance. So when viewed on a population scale, the so-called marijuana gateway effect is a correlation-causation fallacy. Of course individual cases may vary.

When we talk about a gateway effect from e-cigs, let's not forget the primary and principle gateway effect which is real: cigarette use leads to e-cig use because e-cigs users - the vast majority - are using them to quit smoking. Even IF there is an actual gateway effect going the other way, you'd need to prove that this gateway is more common than the other. Good luck with that because surveys show that it is extremely rare for an adult to use e-cigs without smoking cigs first, and even among teenagers it is still much more common to start with cigs then use e-cigs to quit.

In other words, if more people are stopping cig use because of e-cigs than starting cig use because of e-cigs, it is an overall health benefit. People making this gateway argument always totally ignore this because they are propagandists who are not seeking the truth. I have bolded this key point because it is frustrating that not a single person raising this gateway argument has ever acknowledged it on their own. And when it is pointed out by others, it gets ignored. So if you reply, please do not fail to respond to this point.
 
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The only thing I see here is the absurdity of it all.
Ecigs have been around for what? 10 years? Less?
And the government pounces on the device as if it were a loaded gun in the hands of a 5 year old.

Then you have tobacco, which has killed millions, still kills millions, and we can still buy those today in most any store.
And what has the government done? Stick a little tag on the side as a warning?

Yes Virginia, the system is fucked.
And god forbid tobacco be banned as was cocaine or meth, and all those poor doctors and hospitals not to mention all the funeral homes losing all that cool cash.
Yes Virginia, the system is very fucked.
All the conspiracy theories you've ever heard are not only true, but if you only knew the extend of the darkness of evil you'd blow your head off in total despair.
Yes Virginia, you've been fucked and fucked without lube nor protection.
God bless our tobacco owned and operated American government.
Light-up because the medical profession needs the business.
And your representative needs that check.
 
You and JStorm need to quit the faux outrage on ecigs, seriously. If you are that worried about the ingredients, just make your own.
https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic...a_you_can_make_diy_ejuice_its_stupidly_cheap/

Also, these faux concerns about chemicals, just google "diacetyl free vape juice". There are tons of places that don't put it in their mixes.

Yes, I know we've become such a lazy country that kids are too lazy to make their own. But it's not like it's a secret on how to make your own ecig and vape juice, it's dam easy.

I'm only calling for transparency. Not sure how that is "faux" outrage. But keep on keeping on.
 
I agree with this, however it doesn't mean the product should be free from regulation in my opinion.

Of course not. No one is saying the product should be free from regulation. But regulations ought to aim to make the product safer, not to put an entire industry out of business, especially when said industry is providing a product which has helped millions of people give up cigarettes. Over-regulating such a product is a bad idea for public health.
 
So President Obama has a hard-on for possibly the worst free-trade agreement that possibly would put Corporate entities rights above that of governments responsibilities to protect their citizens... something about arbitration committees superseding courts bothers me.

Yet e-cigs is the issue you want to plant your banner on and fight over.

No the rest of the world is incorrect... I see the light now... 'Murica is the greatest country evah.... its electorate is super-duper wicked smaht.


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