Obama: Europe should better integrate Muslims

[TreVader]

1) I am not offended. I'm telling you that resorting to insults does less to convince people of your position than does the use of actual arguments. Assuming you are here to actually achieve anything with with your posts, I suggest that you follow this advice.

2) Yes I do go to Paris, regularly. I'm a 75-minute train ride away. "They" do not "hate" foreigners.

3) I said I am not Belgian but that I live in Belgium. Please read before you post. I am an Australian who has been living hear for 8+ years now.

4) In addition to saying 'bumkin' (sic), you also said 'crap.'

1) Very few people here are open to changing their opinion or admitting they are wrong, and the ones that will I tend not to insult.

2) Parisians, and the French in general do not like people who can't speak French. In Paris if you have an accent they will snub you. The French as a nation have an overinflated sense of importance dating back to their conquest of Normandy. Go to any resort in the Bahamas and its full of 30 something smoking French douchebags. I am not fond of France, much prefer the UK. My personal opinion and I'm entitled to it.

3) I should have read the post more thoroughly.

4) I was being pretty tame, telling me to not insult you will get you insulted. Lighten up.

 

[cabri]

1) Very few people here are open to changing their opinion or admitting they are wrong, and the ones that will I tend not to insult.

In otherwords you will insult anyone that disagrees with you.

 

[IGBT]

in islam it's a mans world.

 

[werepossum]

Wait,.. just last week people were slamming Obama for not being 'involved',.. now that he tosses out "try to better assimilate" he needs to shut the fuck up??

This is why Barry's critics can't have nice things.

lol When someone says Obama should be involved in something, there is an unsaid but widely understood "but don't fuck it up" attached. Generally speaking, it's considered rude to tell someone they need to engage and then add "but don't fuck it up". That implies that (A) they are too stupid to know not to fuck it up unless specifically so told, and (B) there's a good chance they will fuck it up.

 

[Fern]

Lol! You think he actually reads what he posts? He saw the words "French", "riots", and "Arab" and just assumed that the cause was an act of terrorism. Not only was he wrong but that particular incident highlights exactly what Obama is talking about! Detaining people for hours and requiring their "papers", is not how you assimilate anyone.

Good job fern!

You effing idiot. I lived there and experience riots in both Berlin and Paris.

Nobody said it was terrorism, but you buffoons. Not even TreVader, whom I was responding to, he merely said "Muslims" and "why didn't they burn Paris".

And this thread is about "integrating", not terrorism. Rioting and burning is an example of not being integrated.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Are you done quoting old crap and rehashing it over and over in the hopes of finding something that doesn't make you look like a bumkin? Good.

LOL

You're here posting misinformation and I'm the guy who has actually lived over there and I'm the bumpkin?

Recent conflicts huh? What would those be?

In 2011 alone there were numerous conflicts that resulted in refugees: Egypt revolution, Syria revolution etc, Iraq insurgency, Yemeni revolution etc.

The Iraq war beginning in '03 also caused refugees.

There's quite a bit unassociated with the Algerian War that has resulted in some additional Muslim immigration to France (and some other Southern European countries).

These immigrants who came here 30 years ago to France, where did they move? Were they even offered jobs, places to live apart from the tiny ghetto communities they were shoved in? France is HARDLY a bastion of tolerance for French speakers from Belgium, how do you think they treated all these Algerian and Moroccan immigrants? The French are notorious for their prejudice against foreigners, but of course lets ignore the way the people act and just address it's far far more liberal immigration laws. Anything to support your argument that "mooslems r bad!".

Well, I lived in France and worked in a French firm for many years. I was married to a French woman. They seemed pretty damned tolerant to me.

If you'd have read my posts I claim this situation was to be expected. Indeed many warned of it. France has long had an unemployment problem. Very difficult for younger people in particular to find jobs.

Muslims immigrating to France with no (or poor) language skills, no jobs skills and little social network to rely upon resulted in the expected: high unemployment and all that entails for the newly arrived. To make matters worse most managed to segregate themselves in isolated communities/neighborhoods.

It ain't about hate. It's about common sense (and some knowledge, personal and otherwise, about the situation.)

Fern

 

[TreVader]

LOL



You're here posting misinformation and I'm the guy who has actually lived over there and I'm the bumpkin?







In 2011 alone there were numerous conflicts that resulted in refugees: Egypt revolution, Syria revolution etc, Iraq insurgency, Yemeni revolution etc.



The Iraq war beginning in '03 also caused refugees.



There's quite a bit unassociated with the Algerian War that has resulted in some additional Muslim immigration to France (and some other Southern European countries).







Well, I lived in France and worked in a French firm for many years. I was married to a French woman. They seemed pretty damned tolerant to me.



If you'd have read my posts I claim this situation was to be expected. Indeed many warned of it. France has long had an unemployment problem. Very difficult for younger people in particular to find jobs.



Muslims immigrating to France with no (or poor) language skills, no jobs skills and little social network to rely upon resulted in the expected: high unemployment and all that entails for the newly arrived. To make matters worse most managed to segregate themselves in isolated communities/neighborhoods.



It ain't about hate. It's about common sense (and some knowledge, personal and otherwise, about the situation.)



Fern

I agree there are problems but they are not dependent on whether these people practice Islam. The problem is A) France doesn't have work for its own citizenry and B) These immigrants arrive pretty much destitute and because they tend to migrate in large groups, you end up with ghettoization of the populace. They can't get work, they aren't educated and have no funds. You end up with thousand of unemployed Arab men, who of course happen to be Muslim, but don't speak French or really feel they are part of the French community.

So why blame Islam? The issue is these immigrants. And you would not have the same issues with Indonesian or Malaysian Muslims. It's Arabs that are causing the problems and there are a spectrum of causes but if you remove Islam they still hate Israel, they still are impoverished and have nothing to do all day. So they go online and become radicalized.

And these are smart people. Arabs aren't dumb nor are they uneducated, so when they decide to cause trouble it's MUCH worse than the Cuban immigrants in the US who were violent, but not United at all and also uneducated. A United, violent, educated Arab Muslim population that decides it is unwanted and must carve its own place out in France is a big problem.

But you cannot blame Islam. There are SO many other factors.

 

[Fern]

Lol. I am talking about ETHNICALLY asian people. What don't you understand about this? There is a big difference between Asian people and PEOPLE IN ASIA, idiot.

It's your words/language. I can't help if it you're ignorant about geography. A product of the public school system I assume?

I said a massive number of muslims in general, never specified the US but good try.

Your words:

I have yet to see a single terrorist attack by an Asian committed in the US, despite the total number of Asian Muslims being massive.

Do you recall Miami in the 1980s when all the horrible terrorist catholic cuban refugees came here? I assume you also believe that Christianity is a horrible and violent religion that radicalizes a people and prevents them from assimilating, because even a decade after these people came to miami they were causing so much crime it was a fucking national crises!

Any racist BS narrative can be used to target a specific Relgion. The cuban immigrants are a PERFECT example of an insular community coming to the US and doing exactly what Muslims do in europe: ghettoizing and developing secretarian communities that are isolated from the general population.

Were you conscious in the 80s or just drunk the whole time:'(

LOL.

Yeah I recall Miami in the 1980's when the Marielitos came over. I was living there.

Had nothing to do with "Catholic" you boob. They were criminals released from prison and sent over by Castro. They spawned crimes for years.

(Some from the Mariel boat lift were not criminals, just homosexuals and that was outlawed by Castro. The firm I worked at in Miami hired one; Fernando, he was a nice guy and spoke English well for a new arrival.)

Fern

 

[TreVader]

It's your words/language. I can't help if it you're ignorant about geography. AS product of the public schools I assume?







Your words:











LOL.



Yeah I recall Miami in the 1980's when the Marielitos came over. I was living there.



Had nothing to do with "Catholic" you boob. They were criminals released from prison and sent over by Castro. They spawned crimes for years.



(Some from the Mariel boat lift were not criminals, just homosexuals and that was outlawed by Castro. The firm I worked at in Miami hired one; Fernando, he was a nice guy and spoke English well for a new arrival.)



Fern

Duh! That is my entire point. Just like Catholicism was not to blame for the violence in Miami, Islam is not to blame for the violence in France.

 

[Fern]

-snip- And the stereotypes about then French being lazy and intolerant have been around for centuries and for good reason.

Bigoted much?

Fern

 

[TreVader]

-snip- And the stereotypes about then French being lazy and intolerant have been around for centuries and for good reason.

[/quoted]



Bigoted much?



Fern

France sucks. What of it?


Stereotypes take a general aspect and apply it individually on the stereotyped and that is why they are wrong to use to describe individuals. However, stereotypes generally tend to have some basis in fact, would you agree?

 

[Fern]

I think there's a large difference between the north African muslims that lived in France for 50+ years and the recent (last 5-10 years) wave of asylum seekers from middle east. The issues of Hijab in public, special accommodations for muslim girls in public schools, sharia-based marriage/divorce only came up recently.

Sure, there are likely some very recent immigrants as you mention.

But 30 years ago or so there were problems. The big wave of immigrants in 1960 (IIRC) were much different than the following immigrants. I'm pretty sure that when France held Algeria as a colony they mandated French be spoken there. So those that come over already had good language skills. Additionally, many that came over were basically forced to as they had aligned themselves with the French, either fighting under their command or working in French owned businesses. As such they had a pre-existing social network of French contacts and familiar with French culture and practices.

Sometime later, maybe the 70's or 80's, the French opened immigration for family members of the 60's group. However, these later people did not have the language skills or really know anyone in France excepting their relatives. And, again, there were already employment problems at that time.

Fern

 

[Fern]

-snip-
So why blame Islam? The issue is these immigrants. And you would not have the same issues with Indonesian or Malaysian Muslims. It's Arabs that are causing the problems and there are a spectrum of causes but if you remove Islam they still hate Israel, they still are impoverished and have nothing to do all day. So they go online and become radicalized.

And these are smart people. Arabs aren't dumb nor are they uneducated, so when they decide to cause trouble it's MUCH worse than the Cuban immigrants in the US who were violent, but not United at all and also uneducated. A United, violent, educated Arab Muslim population that decides it is unwanted and must carve its own place out in France is a big problem.

But you cannot blame Islam. There are SO many other factors.

Islam and the Arab culture is certainly to blame ,and IMO in large part.

I've traveled around Morocco in the late 80's, which is where a number of the French immigrants are from. They were still cutting off hands for theft and treating the women in stereotypical fashion. That shit ain't gonna fly in France (or any other Western country).

And yes, many were very uneducated. I traveled mostly outside large cities on unmapped dirt roads visiting small towns. Those people were mostly dirt poor. Not many had schools etc.

I suppose the wealthy few had educations. E.g., I worked with a guy who immigrated from Morocco; he was a lawyer. There are exceptions.

Fern

 

[TreVader]

Islam and the Arab culture is certainly to blame ,and IMO in large part.



I've traveled around Morocco in the late 80's, which is where a number of the French immigrants are from. They were still cutting off hands for theft and treating the women in stereotypical fashion. That shit ain't gonna fly in France (or any other Western country).



And yes, many were very uneducated. I traveled mostly outside large cities on unmapped dirt roads visiting small towns. Those people were mostly dirt poor. Not many had schools etc.



I suppose the wealthy few had educations. E.g., I worked with a guy who immigrated from Morocco; he was a lawyer. There are exceptions.



Fern

That's not Islam tho, it's really an aspect of the Bedouin culture that was integrated into the pan-Arab philosophy, which was later co-opted by the Jihadis and therefore became associated with Islam.

Arab culture is violent, I am an Arab (half Lebanese Christian) and I can see it parts of my own family. It's been centuries since these people had control of their own lives and political systems. They were ruled by the Mamluks, Ottoman Turks, British, and now the Israelis occupy their land. They are understandably upset about this.

My family was part of the educated Christian upper class in Lebanon that became the Lebanese diaspora. We have a totally different culture to the Sunni and Shi'a Arabs, but we are still Arabs and we still posses this psychosocial wound from the partition.

The reason why we aren't engaged in Jihad and we integrated so well is when my family came here we were purposely brought under military visa and allowed to stay because my grandfather was a priceless military asset, a famous chemist. He was instantly put in a professorship at UCLA and so we came here with money, jobs, education. We could speak English and Arabic and French.


You need to end the poverty. Poverty and lack of education, along with the history of he Arabs is the cause of this. Not Islam.