Obama: Europe should better integrate Muslims

[Double Trouble]

The idea that you can allow enclaves of people who refuse to integrate into your society and cling to their old nation's traditions, language and values, etc is a farce that only breeds division within society and allows foreign elements that are opposed to values and traditions observed in Western nations to breed like a malignant cancer.

Groups that fundamentally oppose basic tenets of western society can not be allowed to come in unless they are willing to change their views on those values. For decades Europe has allowed people in, but marginalized them, making any integration difficult. Now they've reached critical mass where there is a big chunk of the population that is essentially a group of foreigners (regardless of their actual nationality) living in Europe who don't share core values with the rest of the Europeans.

It's a recipe for disaster, and I think we're only seeing the beginning -- it's going to get a lot worse. Every time one of the terrorists does something, the people in Europe are going to push back, further marginalizing the Muslims. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Genx87]

Because the Atlantic and the USN is stopping those refugees from flooding into America, for one.

Eh we have 2-7 million muslims within the United States. Why arent they attacking us like they do in Europe? That is my point. Not that we can better restrict their immigration.

 

[Genx87]

In the US they simply haven't reached sufficient numbers yet to cause serious problems, but that's starting to change in some places in Michigan and Minneapolis. Due to the higher concentration there you're starting to see friction developing between muslims and non-muslims. Not having predominantly muslim colonies and not sharing a border with a muslim country is what has somewhat insulated the US from the problems the Europeans are seeing now.

You simply can't have a long term peaceful coexistence between groups when one group doesn't believe in the right of the other group to not adhere to the same beliefs and rules.

I live in Minneapolis. What friction are you talking about?

Do you believe this unpeaceful coexistence is due to the way Muslims are? Or because Europe has excluded Muslims from society or in some cases oppressed them that radical Islam suddenly looks like a favorable alternative?

In this country I think our closest group would have to be blacks. Which through the majority of our country were oppressed by the govt and majority.

 

[TreVader]

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying Jews in the US are not successful? If so, I'm pretty sure by any measurable metric you're wrong.

I'm sorry, but the Jews constantly complain about being discriminated against in the US. Sometimes they are discriminated against. So you both have this problem. You are not different than Muslims in failing to fully integrate. Go to the Hassid community in LA. They are just as isolated as the Somalians in Michigan. And they are even worse about their women. Those girls are baby machines to Hassidic Jews and they get no education and generally do not work.


Fundamentalist Jews are just as poorly integrated as fundamentalist Muslims. And they are little better than fundamentalist Muslims in their treatment of women.

 

[BoberFett]

That's because in Europe nationality is strongly tied to ethnicity. It's very different from America where we're all Americans. There, if you're not European you're not European. Also, assimilation has clearly failed. Must be a reason why 90% of all the cars that are burned in France are done by Muslims.

Are you for real.

 

[Knowing]

What ever happened to that rape ring in the UK?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

Jeez, look up rape ring UK and you get more than one result.

Oh, this is what happened. Diversity training. Then the "files were stolen" and ????

Clearly they need to work on their inclusiveness.

 

[Moonbeam]

Why are conservatives traitors to what America stands for, the great melting pot that assimilates the poor and the tired and the hungry from other places and turns them in to the greatest people on earth. You filthy disgusting swine piss on our traditions, our lore, and the qualities that are known to make us great. Fucking get your worthless asses out of the United States. You don't deserve to live here, you filthy communist pigs.

Just saying.....

 

[Double Trouble]

I live in Minneapolis. What friction are you talking about?

For example, cabbies refusing to give rides to people to places where they drink alcohol, or giving rides to women at the airport. Cashiers refusing to ring up products like pork. There are lawsuits ongoing about that stuff right now. That stuff is only going to get worse as more people move in who do not share basic values with most of the rest of the country.

Do you believe this unpeaceful coexistence is due to the way Muslims are? Or because Europe has excluded Muslims from society or in some cases oppressed them that radical Islam suddenly looks like a favorable alternative?

Marginalization of Muslims by many in Europe is also a problem, but it doesn't explain why just about every Muslim country in the world becomes an oppressive shithole. There is just too much evidence all around the world to ignore the common thread. There is something about Islam - or rather, how it is practiced - that seems to make it a problem.

I think every religion has crazy draconian elements, but other religions have evolved to simply ignore or discard those parts over time. What other religion teaches that death is appropriate for apostates? Or that insult of some aspect of the religion is subject to severe (or even death) penalty??

Unfortunately, it's not some small fringe either. Many surveys have found significant majorities of Muslims in western europe (UK, France etc) to be in favor of punishment for apostates, homosexuality, and insulting islam in some way. They don't seem to believe in freedom of speech or expression. Based on that reality, Europeans have few options. Either bend over and let the Muslims dictate what their values should be (which is happening in the UK with 'hate speech' restrictions and crap like that, or they start getting tougher with imposing their values on everyone. Imposing things on people isn't really compatible with free society either, so it's basically a lose lose. They waited too long, they are screwed.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Do people here think if the average redneck town in West Virginia, in its entirety, immigrated to Europe that they would integrate any better?

After living in Europe a number of years I would say YES, absolutely.

Europe has plenty of rural agricultural areas where the "average redneck" would fit in just fine.

Redneck are quite good at the trades (mechanics, carpentry, elec, plumbing, HVAC etc.), agriculture and animal husbandry.

Fern

 

[Fern]

He's right though.

The problem in Europe is that if you're a Muslim you have a very low chance of getting a job. Europeans tend to be rather xenophobic in their hiring practices. We have the same problem in the USA in many ways but not at that level.

I don't think it's xenophobia as much as poor employment. Much of Europe has traditionally had high unemployment. Migrating into a country that has high unemployment with no language skills, no jobs skills etc is guaranteed to result in what we are seeing.

Fern

 

[TreVader]

You cannot just "impose" your values upon an entire group of people and expect it to just "work out".


You also cannot paint an entire group of people out to be somehow different than any other group. People who are extremely religious and extremely poor tend to hold extreme views. Its a coping mechanism to deal with the hardships of that kind of existence. Research has shown that when times are harder, people become more fundamentalist in their beliefs, and more suspicious of outsiders.

An example are these Palestinian refugees. You bring these people who have lived for 40 years under bombardment and in abject poverty, where all they had to cling to was islam, and expect them to just toss off the Hijab and head to the mall? Ludicrous.

You will never get them to stop being muslim, which is what you really want. So try to be understanding. Europe has porous borders but tends to be much harder for foreigners to integrate too. There is no acceptance in France that these are French people, really. They stay foreign, and that is France's fault for not reaching out to them.


What if every time some christian or jewish fundamentalist, whatever your religion may be, blew somebody up the world looked at you and your kin and ask "WTF?" Would that be fair? Is it fair to blame every baptist for abortion bombings? Or every jew for Israel bombing a hospital or school?

 

[Double Trouble]

You will never get them to stop being muslim, which is what you really want. So try to be understanding.

No, that's the problem. Tolerance is exactly what most European countries have tried. Tolerance of a difference is great, but if you can't agree on basic rights and values, tolerance won't and can't work. Being 'understanding' sounds wonderful, until the people who's culture you are trying to understand and be tolerant of start trying to impose their values on you. If you reject their values, they will be further marginalized and less integrated, and the problem gets worse. Welcome to Europe's situation.

There is no acceptance in France that these are French people,
really.

That's true, but at the same time a lot of them are not French people no matter what nationality they have because they don't (and don't want to) share core values.

What if every time some christian or jewish fundamentalist, whatever your religion may be, blew somebody up the world looked at you and your kin and ask "WTF?" Would that be fair? Is it fair to blame every baptist for abortion bombings? Or every jew for Israel bombing a hospital or school?

Of course you can't blame the entire population for the acts of a radical few. However, when much of that "entire population" supports the acts of the radical few, it's hard not to apply the broad brush to that group.

 

[Fern]

Eh we have 2-7 million muslims within the United States. Why arent they attacking us like they do in Europe? That is my point. Not that we can better restrict their immigration.

Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Malik_Hasan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Times_Square_car_bombing_attempt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings

Ever heard of this guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Fern

 

[nickqt]

Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Malik_Hasan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Times_Square_car_bombing_attempt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings

Ever heard of this guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Fern

Right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_2...naacp-bombing-investigation-be-updated-friday

Ban Whitey!

 

[Double Trouble]

Right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_2...naacp-bombing-investigation-be-updated-friday

Ban Whitey!

Fern was responding to this post:

Why arent they attacking us like they do in Europe?

He provided specific examples to show that indeed they ARE attacking us. It just hasn't reached the same level yet.

 

[ivwshane]

Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Malik_Hasan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Times_Square_car_bombing_attempt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings

Ever heard of this guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Fern

You are stretching there buddy!

 

[Dresdenboy]

These European integration processes can't be forced upon people coming from other cultures. Especially the older ones find it hard to adapt quickly. We couldn't either. That's human. So we have to wait for the generations to grow into their new home. Unfortunately the hunt for efficiency in those capital driven societies pushes/leaves many of the immigrants in difficult social environments which even slow down the process. I live in Berlin and see the results every day.

 

[rommelrommel]

Eh we have 2-7 million muslims within the United States. Why arent they attacking us like they do in Europe? That is my point. Not that we can better restrict their immigration.

The USA gets to be much more selective about who immigrates because they aren't being deluged with refugee ships, that was my point.

I do think that the general US melting pot concept is a lot better than multiculturalism that allows ethnic enclaves.

 

[nickqt]

Fern was responding to this post:

He provided specific examples to show that indeed they ARE attacking us. It just hasn't reached the same level yet.

And I provided links to right-wing white supremacists who have been attacking us worse than super ultra mega scary Mooslems.

Thanks for allowing me the chance to clarify!

 

[master_shake_]

European guy: "oh look the president of the us is telling us what to do"

other european guy: "hewotm8!?"

 

[Orignal Earl]

^This is about the gist of it.
It's like this... Muslims are about 1 douchebag move away from getting decimated.Ain't nobody got time for that.Everyone has had quite enough of that.
I'm not saying going all Sarajevo n stuff..hopefully people don't.
There will be a major pushback, though.

Terrorism isn't something new with France or Europe
France has dealt with a lot of Libertarian Right Wing Nationalist Terror groups for a long time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_France



I wonder what all they have in common in their beliefs with the Libertarian Right Wing Nationalists that post here...

 

[nickqt]

Terrorism isn't something new with France or Europe
France has dealt with a lot of Libertarian Right Wing Nationalist Terror groups for a long time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_France



I wonder what all they have in common in their beliefs with the Libertarian Right Wing Nationalists that post here...

Not racial animosity, because that doesn't exist today, won't exist tomorrow, and won't exist forever!

 

[werepossum]

US President Barack Obama on Friday urged European governments to try to better assimilate their Muslim minority populations as they respond to extremist attacks like last week's shootings in Paris.

I agree actually.

Just slam away on anything he says to make an issue out of it, whatever.

Seems to me he's kinda telling Europe your going to have to start handling this problem on your own.

While I agree he has a ghost of a point, as Blanky points out they can't assimilate people whose life outlooks are built around not assimilating. And at the very least, his saying this right now is abysmally stupid. As Kadarin pointed out, this is a man who sent three officials to a black man's funeral just because he was cop-shot but snubbed France in their hour of tragedy, but blew off France, letting his fundraiser-cum-ambassador handle it. He's got Kerry trying to pick up the pieces, but right on top of that he has to piss them off again?

It's obvious that Obama hates France and Great Britain, but he also hates Israel and he has managed to accommodate them. Why can't he see that we also need France and Great Britain?

Sad to say it but this is the real issue. This is not a problem with "Muslims" so much as it is a problem with any kind of deeply religious, insular, and poorly educated refugee population.


Do people here think if the average redneck town in West Virginia, in its entirety, immigrated to Europe that they would integrate any better?

Of course. These are people whose ancestors did that exact thing. Many, many people migrated to America and lived in neighborhoods and even cities filled with their fellows in ethnicity, national origin and/or religion. These are people whose religions had been at war for hundreds of years, leaving nations with often-strict religious laws. Yet they managed to give up those laws (some of which had been adopted at the colony or state level) to be Americans.

We have some of the same problems with Mexicans, and things like this make me very grateful for Mexicans. While they may have some anti-American/pro-Mexican views and resist assimilation, they are almost uniformly hard-working, peaceful and honest. Thank G-d we have hordes of poor Mexicans and not hordes of poor Muslims.

 

[TreVader]

While I agree he has a ghost of a point, as Blanky points out they can't assimilate people whose life outlooks are built around not assimilating. And at the very least, his saying this right now is abysmally stupid. As Kadarin pointed out, this is a man who sent three officials to a black man's funeral just because he was cop-shot but snubbed France in their hour of tragedy, but blew off France, letting his fundraiser-cum-ambassador handle it. He's got Kerry trying to pick up the pieces, but right on top of that he has to piss them off again?

How is their life outlook "built around" not assimilating? Have you even given them a chance? Most of these communities have been there a few years at most. Assimilation into a European nation-state won't be done overnight. Europe is not America, the laws may be more tolerant but the people, in practice, aren't. And who cares about Obama not being in France. He has better shit to do, frankly I'm glad he was working. Unlike Bush, he isn't a 50% photo ops 50% on vacation.

Those leaders aren't on his level anyway. Is Putin there? Exactly.

It's obvious that Obama hates France and Great Britain, but he also hates Israel and he has managed to accommodate them. Why can't he see that we also need France and Great Britain?

Really? Of course. Israel. If Obama isn't bending over for Bibi and his warmongers, he "hates them". I wish! Israel can go fuck itself, it's an apartheid state and should be occupied, and have it's entire regime overthrown. It is nearly on North Korea level of human rights abuses, so all I have to say to this^ is lol.

Of course. These are people whose ancestors did that exact thing. Many, many people migrated to America and lived in neighborhoods and even cities filled with their fellows in ethnicity, national origin and/or religion. These are people whose religions had been at war for hundreds of years, leaving nations with often-strict religious laws. Yet they managed to give up those laws (some of which had been adopted at the colony or state level) to be Americans.

We have some of the same problems with Mexicans, and things like this make me very grateful for Mexicans. While they may have some anti-American/pro-Mexican views and resist assimilation, they are almost uniformly hard-working, peaceful and honest. Thank G-d we have hordes of poor Mexicans and not hordes of poor Muslims.

What? I don't recall any huge refugee populations immigrating all at once to America besides the cubans. Do you recall some kind of crime problems in Miami back then? :sneaky:


You are so out of your element.

 

[werepossum]

Why are conservatives traitors to what America stands for, the great melting pot that assimilates the poor and the tired and the hungry from other places and turns them in to the greatest people on earth. You filthy disgusting swine piss on our traditions, our lore, and the qualities that are known to make us great. Fucking get your worthless asses out of the United States. You don't deserve to live here, you filthy communist pigs.

Just saying.....

Dude, you seriously need to get your meds under control. All you've got lately is hate conservatives, all the time, every topic. Even on issues like this where you're 100% wrong. It isn't the conservatives who are encouraging group identity and fighting a common language, it's the left pushing European-style multiculturalism. Has been for decades. I remember Algore going on about our motto, E pluribus union, translating to "out of one, many" as an example of our diversity. That's 180 degrees out from our historic melting pot culture.

No, that's the problem. Tolerance is exactly what most European countries have tried. Tolerance of a difference is great, but if you can't agree on basic rights and values, tolerance won't and can't work. Being 'understanding' sounds wonderful, until the people who's culture you are trying to understand and be tolerant of start trying to impose their values on you. If you reject their values, they will be further marginalized and less integrated, and the problem gets worse. Welcome to Europe's situation.

That's true, but at the same time a lot of them are not French people no matter what nationality they have because they don't (and don't want to) share core values.

Of course you can't blame the entire population for the acts of a radical few. However, when much of that "entire population" supports the acts of the radical few, it's hard not to apply the broad brush to that group.

Well said.

The USA gets to be much more selective about who immigrates because they aren't being deluged with refugee ships, that was my point.

I do think that the general US melting pot concept is a lot better than multiculturalism that allows ethnic enclaves.

Agreed, but we're rapidly moving away from that to a culture of separate ethnic cultures. We have government schools that are all-Spanish, government schools that are all Islamic, even government schools that are all gay. The melting pot concept is over.