Obama Drug Policy Reform To Be Outlined By Gil Kerlikowske, Nation's Drug Czar

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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Are you honestly suggesting you know how much drug treatment facility (hint: doctors, expensive equipment) from government contracts is going to cost through under the table dealings of corporate lobbyists (much like our prison systems)? Yeah, you're more foolish than I thought :D

Seriously? You think that having a clinic sized building where people come for an hour to meet with a counselor can even approach the costs of maintaining secure facilities where we pay for someone's room and board along with all the guard staff?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
For the life of me I will never understand why we have people that actually want their tax dollars to go towards locking up non-violent people simply because of their choice of intoxication. We have laws on the books for any other shit they might do while intoxicated that is a danger to society but simply for using drugs??? Why? Exactly what purpose does it serve other than completely wasting a ton of tax dollars?

If a tree falls in the forest while smoking marijuana, should we throw it in jail?
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,699
60
91
It will either lead the way for further legalization, doubtful because once all the legalize pot people get their dope the fight ends for them, they're not interested in the War on Drugs, only the war on their weed, or it will make them go hard on what's left.

I'd be ok with legalizing cocaine and LSD.. maybe just LSD medically. If cocaine was regulated... well we all know it couldn't be any worse than alcohol.

I do think the major issue is weed though. If we could direct all the current resources towards meth/heroin and regulate the others, I think we'd see some good changes.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,699
60
91
Seriously? You think that having a clinic sized building where people come for an hour to meet with a counselor can even approach the costs of maintaining secure facilities where we pay for someone's room and board along with all the guard staff?

Seriously. It's pretty bad how severe the disconnect is with people not caught up on the drug war problems. To be fair, not everyone has lead lives that naturally enlightened them to it, so they have to 'turned' because of preconceived beliefs.

It'd be cheaper to just buy a big damn island with the best drug counselors in the world, and ship drug offenders off to paradise (so they can recover and learn to enjoy life again without drugs) than the damn prison system.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
I'd be ok with legalizing cocaine and LSD.. maybe just LSD medically. If cocaine was regulated... well we all know it couldn't be any worse than alcohol.

I do think the major issue is weed though. If we could direct all the current resources towards meth/heroin and regulate the others, I think we'd see some good changes.

No. Legalize and put money into treatment for the harder drugs. Remove the market for the nasty street tar and speed, cut with who knows what, made who knows how, and of what purity, make available pharmaceutical versions. The War on Drugs™ needs to end, not just the war on drugs you don't approve of.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,699
60
91
No. Legalize and put money into treatment for the harder drugs. Remove the market for the nasty street tar and speed, cut with who knows what, made who knows how, and of what purity, make available pharmaceutical versions. The War on Drugs™ needs to end, not just the war on drugs you don't approve of.

I never said I don't 'approve of them', but I think if we legalized marijuana first, you'd find a lot of users of harder drugs using pot instead. Marijuana has been proven to be very effective in replacement therapy. So not only would we remove a huge part of the black market by legalizing mj, it'd also make a huge dent in what's leftover because that market would dwindle as well because of so many people choosing to use legal mj.

Between destroying the backbone of the underground drug trade (marijuana) and offering up something users of harder drugs might enjoy legally instead of their harder drugs, we'd find overall drug use going down dramatically. If we then focus enforcement in those areas, we'd be able to make a larger dent in the cartels, etc.

I'd say start with weed, clamp down on the rest for 5 years, then legalize it all once society has adjusted to legal weed.

At this point I'm just discussing realistic strategy on how to handle winding down the war on drugs and kicking the evil side of the drug trade in the nuts while we do it.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,744
20,311
146
I've been surrounded by drugs, alcohol, and addiction of friends and family my whole adult life, going on a quarter of a century. I need to employ my toes to count the number of friends I've had die, or that might as well be. I've seen legitimate chronic pain patients turn into junkies because the system says the drugs they depend on to be able to function they can't have because they lead to, lol, dependence. It's ridiculous the lives destroyed because someone else's morals being forced on others. The absolute stupidity of pot being on the drug schedule, much less schedule I is insanity. Sorry, I just don't have any hope that once weed is legalized anyone is going to push any further to end the WoD.

I think that the regular tokers I've known, and know, are smarter than the ones you know. The WoD needs to end, agreed, and many people won't stop pushing for it.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
I never said I don't 'approve of them', but I think if we legalized marijuana first, you'd find a lot of users of harder drugs using pot instead.

People who are addicted to hard drugs generally couldn't careless about weed, crack heads and junkies aren't going to just stop the drugs their physically and mentally addicted to, to start smoking weed because it becomes legal, chances are good that they don't really care about it's legal status as it is.

Marijuana has been proven to be very effective in replacement therapy.

Replacement of what? Benzos maybe, or in combination with other drugs that are actually the replacement, but no, weed by itself does nothing as a "replacement" for the physical dependence causing drugs.

Between destroying the backbone of the underground drug trade (marijuana) and offering up something users of harder drugs might enjoy legally instead of their harder drugs, we'd find overall drug use going down dramatically. If we then focus enforcement in those areas, we'd be able to make a larger dent in the cartels, etc.

Once again , they either already smoke it, or don't care at all about it, it's a completely different drug, this is basic chemistry, do you really think that someone that scores meth, heroin or crack is waiting around for weed to become legal? Also, more and more weed is being produced domestically, either clandestine illegal grows, or diverted medical marijuana, the imported mexican brick is already less and less in demand, around here prices are stupid low. This isn't because of law enforcement efforts, it's because the domestic supply is increasing, and people want more quality. It's gotten to the point that even the cartels are moving grows and production to the US.

I'd say start with weed, clamp down on the rest for 5 years, then legalize it all once society has adjusted to legal weed.

Why "clamp down"? So increase the WoD to slow the WoD? That makes no sense.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
I think that the regular tokers I've known, and know, are smarter than the ones you know. The WoD needs to end, agreed, and many people won't stop pushing for it.

Whatever makes you feel special. Some may not, but many will.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,744
20,311
146
Whatever makes you feel special. Some may not, but many will.

lol, yea...I feel "special". :rolleyes:

That's your opinion. Bottomline, ending the WoD is not going to happen overnight...but incrementally. Change won't be easy, especially for the older generations.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,408
10
0
I found a number of news article on Portugal, the Netherlands and many others who decriminalized all illicit drugs and most of their major crime went way down, and so did the addiction rate (which I find interesting). Here is one article which is pretty recent about Portugal from Forbes on their decriminalization of all drugs and the effects 10 years afterwards:

Link to article click here to read

Drug warriors often contend that drug use would skyrocket if we were to legalize or decriminalize drugs in the United States. Fortunately, we have a real-world example of the actual effects of ending the violent, expensive War on Drugs and replacing it with a system of treatment for problem users and addicts.

Ten years ago, Portugal decriminalized all drugs. One decade after this unprecedented experiment, drug abuse is down by half:

“There is no doubt that the phenomenon of addiction is in decline in Portugal,” said Joao Goulao, President of the Institute of Drugs and Drugs Addiction, a press conference to mark the 10th anniversary of the law.

The number of addicts considered “problematic” — those who repeatedly use “hard” drugs and intravenous users — had fallen by half since the early 1990s, when the figure was estimated at around 100,000 people, Goulao said.

Other factors had also played their part however, Goulao, a medical doctor added.

“This development can not only be attributed to decriminalisation but to a confluence of treatment and risk reduction policies.”

Many of these innovative treatment procedures would not have emerged if addicts had continued to be arrested and locked up rather than treated by medical experts and psychologists. Currently 40,000 people in Portugal are being treated for drug abuse. This is a far cheaper, far more humane way to tackle the problem. Rather than locking up 100,000 criminals, the Portuguese are working to cure 40,000 patients and fine-tuning a whole new canon of drug treatment knowledge at the same time.

None of this is possible when waging a war.

You are forgetting one little detail.

Drug on wars = LOTS of money to politician's buddies/companies.

No drug on wars = no money

I won't even get into how many THOUSANDS of jobs would be cut....

Then you look at the current "private prison" situation.

This "war" is NOT going away anytime soon.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,699
60
91
People who are addicted to hard drugs generally couldn't careless about weed, crack heads and junkies aren't going to just stop the drugs their physically and mentally addicted to, to start smoking weed because it becomes legal, chances are good that they don't really care about it's legal status as it is.

Replacement of what? Benzos maybe, or in combination with other drugs that are actually the replacement, but no, weed by itself does nothing as a "replacement" for the physical dependence causing drugs.


Once again , they either already smoke it, or don't care at all about it, it's a completely different drug, this is basic chemistry, do you really think that someone that scores meth, heroin or crack is waiting around for weed to become legal? Also, more and more weed is being produced domestically, either clandestine illegal grows, or diverted medical marijuana, the imported mexican brick is already less and less in demand, around here prices are stupid low. This isn't because of law enforcement efforts, it's because the domestic supply is increasing, and people want more quality. It's gotten to the point that even the cartels are moving grows and production to the US.

Why "clamp down"? So increase the WoD to slow the WoD? That makes no sense.

What I'm saying is that if marijuana was available, many people who do harder drugs would turn to it when they can't get their fix. It's 'something' to get them high, and being high on MJ often helps the user deal with withdrawals from another drug.

Hey NO CRACK FOR YOU, here's some water. not going to help..

Hey NO CRACK FOR YOU, here's some weed, go get high. More likely to help. I know my brother, who had a coke habit, essentially beat it by just getting stoned all the time. It wasn't the same, but it was something besides coke to do.

Also, when I say clamp down, I mostly mean on things like Meth and Heroin, of which I think eventually should be legal as well.

Basically, open up the flood gates and legalize pot. Now all of a sudden, the drug market slims down (because no more pot dealers used to peddle harder drugs) and the availability of the other drugs take a hit (no pun intended). Instead of immediately collapsing the police economy supported by the war on drugs, take weed off the table, and focus those resources for several years on just meth/heroin.

I don't think I'm explaining this well. If I wasn't at work, I'd try to be more elegant about it.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Where are you getting this? At no time have I said they should be treated the same, I have not discussed how I think they should be handled.

You've offered that if the WoD can't be ended for all drugs then it should stay as it is wrt marijuana to maintain pressure for what you want, legalization of all drugs. You demand the MJ advocates sacrifice their own cause for yours.

Not really, I just know that if marijuana is made legal that the push to stop the WoD will come to a grinding halt, exactly because of people that want to separate them.

You don't "know" that at all, you merely believe it to be true, despite evidence to the contrary. Medical MJ softened up the public perception for legal retail MJ here in Colorado, and I suspect that legal MJ can lead to shifting attitudes wrt other drugs as well.

They don't "keep their friends supplied", they don't need to, their friends just get mmj cards. Personally I don't care at all, I barely view pot as a drug it is so benign.

There's no MMJ in Texas, so I suspect you're just repeating something you were told rather than having any real experience in that regard. Here in Colorado, people need some legit medical issue to get a script, even if that reason might seem less than imperative. Young people in particular have trouble doing so, because they can't demonstrate any need. Those who can may use it as I've described. It's irresistible, staying stoned on your friends' money, doing them a favor at the same time.

Sorry if I don't believe that, I just don't see people saying, "Hey, let's take another look at cocaine, maybe we were wrong!!!".

Authoritarian conservatives have put themselves in a bind, raving about smaller less intrusive govt & States' Rights. They can't admit that they're really authoritarians at this point. When the general voting public finds out they've been lied to about marijuana & have expended enormous resources in pursuit of the usual right wing authoritarian agenda, they'll question the sanity of the WoD in general, bet on it. Legalization of MJ can be used as a segue to more rational policy about all drugs.
 
Last edited:
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
4,785
146
What I'm saying is that if marijuana was available, many people who do harder drugs would turn to it when they can't get their fix. It's 'something' to get them high, and being high on MJ often helps the user deal with withdrawals from another drug.

Hey NO CRACK FOR YOU, here's some water. not going to help..

Hey NO CRACK FOR YOU, here's some weed, go get high. More likely to help. I know my brother, who had a coke habit, essentially beat it by just getting stoned all the time. It wasn't the same, but it was something besides coke to do.

Also, when I say clamp down, I mostly mean on things like Meth and Heroin, of which I think eventually should be legal as well.

Basically, open up the flood gates and legalize pot. Now all of a sudden, the drug market slims down (because no more pot dealers used to peddle harder drugs) and the availability of the other drugs take a hit (no pun intended). Instead of immediately collapsing the police economy supported by the war on drugs, take weed off the table, and focus those resources for several years on just meth/heroin.

I don't think I'm explaining this well. If I wasn't at work, I'd try to be more elegant about it.

Bullshit. I make the counter argument that everyone wants what they can't have. Hence the popularity of illegal drugs. Hence the popularity of "doing what is against the rules" - be it your child being a skank after you taught her not to be - or your rebel kid going out late.

If you think that isn't comparable to retards that hit a bong all day, I have some news for you... their maturity is still at the level of a pre-teen.
 

surfsatwerk

Lifer
Mar 6, 2008
10,110
5
81
Bullshit. I make the counter argument that everyone wants what they can't have. Hence the popularity of illegal drugs. Hence the popularity of "doing what is against the rules" - be it your child being a skank after you taught her not to be - or your rebel kid going out late.

If you think that isn't comparable to retards that hit a bong all day, I have some news for you... their maturity is still at the level of a pre-teen.

Crack is pretty easy to get. People want crack because it's fucking crack you dipstick.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
What I'm saying is that if marijuana was available, many people who do harder drugs would turn to it when they can't get their fix. It's 'something' to get them high, and being high on MJ often helps the user deal with withdrawals from another drug.

Hey NO CRACK FOR YOU, here's some water. not going to help..

Hey NO CRACK FOR YOU, here's some weed, go get high. More likely to help. I know my brother, who had a coke habit, essentially beat it by just getting stoned all the time. It wasn't the same, but it was something besides coke to do.

Also, when I say clamp down, I mostly mean on things like Meth and Heroin, of which I think eventually should be legal as well.

Basically, open up the flood gates and legalize pot. Now all of a sudden, the drug market slims down (because no more pot dealers used to peddle harder drugs) and the availability of the other drugs take a hit (no pun intended). Instead of immediately collapsing the police economy supported by the war on drugs, take weed off the table, and focus those resources for several years on just meth/heroin.

I don't think I'm explaining this well. If I wasn't at work, I'd try to be more elegant about it.

I see it the other way around. When people want to score weed, their dealer may not have any, but he'll have something else, and they'll often try it. I personally never met anybody who tried crack & didn't like it way too much, for example. The euphoric rush is absolutely unbelievable. Professional dealers often sell what they can get, only refusing stuff their customers may not buy. If weed were legal, that crossover wouldn't exist. The only drug at the weed store is weed, obviously, and they'll never run out, either.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Bullshit. I make the counter argument that everyone wants what they can't have. Hence the popularity of illegal drugs. Hence the popularity of "doing what is against the rules" - be it your child being a skank after you taught her not to be - or your rebel kid going out late.

If you think that isn't comparable to retards that hit a bong all day, I have some news for you... their maturity is still at the level of a pre-teen.

Stereotype much, do you? Millions of Americans toke, most only occasionally and at appropriate times, just like most people drink alcohol. It's not just young people, either, but people from all ages & walks of life. It's not just "filthy hippies", no matter how badly you want to believe that it is.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
IMO, the arguments that pot is good for you or bad for you, or makes you unstable or merely relaxes you, or causes people to rob houses or doesn't, or will result in more DUIs or won't, all miss the major point: The current WOD is a massive and incredibly expensive (in terms of $'s and all kinds of other societal costs) failure that needs to be stopped.

If you are anti-pot, fine. We need to switch to one of the other ways to discourage use without blowing a ton of money, creating a sub-class of career criminals (I'm referring to Mexican and other violent cartels operating here) and ruining peoples' lives (casual smokers).

If you support pot smoking, fine. Whether your argument be medicinal or otherwise, that's up to you.

But I think we should be able to join together to stop this waste of money, creation of criminals and making criminals out of non-violent people. Thereafter our respective states can handle it as they see fit; whether that be by outright legalization or making it an offense like a traffic ticket and sending offenders to addiction counseling class etc.

The current state of madness must stop.

(For the record I don't smoke pot.)

Fern
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,699
60
91
Bullshit. I make the counter argument that everyone wants what they can't have. Hence the popularity of illegal drugs. Hence the popularity of "doing what is against the rules" - be it your child being a skank after you taught her not to be - or your rebel kid going out late.

If you think that isn't comparable to retards that hit a bong all day, I have some news for you... their maturity is still at the level of a pre-teen.

Whoa... We got a badass Troll here
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
You've offered that if the WoD can't be ended for all drugs then it should stay as it is wrt marijuana to maintain pressure for what you want, legalization of all drugs. You demand the MJ advocates sacrifice their own cause for yours.

I advocate for legalization of all drugs, not just pot, sorry that's got your panties in a bunch.

You don't "know" that at all, you merely believe it to be true, despite evidence to the contrary. Medical MJ softened up the public perception for legal retail MJ here in Colorado, and I suspect that legal MJ can lead to shifting attitudes wrt other drugs as well.

I do know because I have talked to enough people about it, and have seen exactly that attitude. They only care about pot because it's harmless, and think that the other should stay illegal, or just don't care about whether any others are legal as long as weed becomes legal.

There's no MMJ in Texas, so I suspect you're just repeating something you were told rather than having any real experience in that regard. Here in Colorado, people need some legit medical issue to get a script, even if that reason might seem less than imperative. Young people in particular have trouble doing so, because they can't demonstrate any need. Those who can may use it as I've described. It's irresistible, staying stoned on your friends' money, doing them a favor at the same time.

I've lived in Cali, and have relatives and friends there, so too bad for your theory, but yea, thanks for admitting that it's pretty easy, and abused.

Authoritarian conservatives have put themselves in a bind, raving about smaller less intrusive govt & States' Rights. They can't admit that they're really authoritarians at this point. When the general voting public finds out they've been lied to about marijuana & have expended enormous resources in pursuit of the usual right wing authoritarian agenda, they'll question the sanity of the WoD in general, bet on it. Legalization of MJ can be used as a segue to more rational policy about all drugs.

I just don't buy it. I see far too many people that are only concerned about weed.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,744
20,311
146
IMO, the arguments that pot is good for you or bad for you, or makes you unstable or merely relaxes you, or causes people to rob houses or doesn't, or will result in more DUIs or won't, all miss the major point: The current WOD is a massive and incredibly expensive (in terms of $'s and all kinds of other societal costs) failure that needs to be stopped.

If you are anti-pot, fine. We need to switch to one of the other ways to discourage use without blowing a ton of money, creating a sub-class of career criminals (I'm referring to Mexican and other violent cartels operating here) and ruining peoples' lives (casual smokers).

If you support pot smoking, fine. Whether your argument be medicinal or otherwise, that's up to you.

But I think we should be able to join together to stop this waste of money, creation of criminals and making criminals out of non-violent people. Thereafter our respective states can handle it as they see fit; whether that be by outright legalization or making it an offense like a traffic ticket and sending offenders to addiction counseling class etc.

The current state of madness must stop.

(For the record I don't smoke pot.)

Fern

Quoted for being well said.