- Jun 19, 2000
- 18,883
- 641
- 126
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,874
- 6,411
- 126
The Right/Left divide in the US has existed for a very long time and it would take a Roots sized book to fully explore it. I'll try to make a generalized statement about it here though.
The US has been avoiding the Ideological divide for a very longtime and during that time a lot of events took place that increased the divide, yet it was rather hidden due to other circumstances. In short:
1) The Roaring 20's were the US's first real taste of Modern Wealth and Affluence
2) The Great Depression occurred, destroying that Wealth/Affluence and pretty much Capitalism as well
3) The GD caused an upsurge in Communism within the US and FDR moved the US to the Left for 2 Reasons: a) to placate the growing political power of Communism; and b) because the Left had solutions to the Crisis
4) WW2 occurred which accomplished basically 2 things: a) reinvigorated the Economy but also got the population off the Unemployment lines; b) made everyone forget about the GD
5) WW2 ended with a Bang(literally). Not only did the Horror of that War no longer hang over the heads of Americans, but the Atomic Bombs ushered in an Age(for a short time anyway) of US Dominance and Invincibility
6) As American's returned home from Overseas and settled back into Civilian life they had a completely new optimistic outlook, completely forgetting about the GD, going forward creating a Booming Economy and an upsurge in Population through Birth(the Baby Boomers).
7) The USSR develops the Bomb and the Cold War begins. The US begins to embrace "Capitalism" as a rallying cry against the "Communist" threat. Invincibility turns into Vulnerability, Optimism to Fear, Unity to Disunity(McCarthy witch hunts)
8) Baby Boomers begin to reach Voting Age and the 60's happen:
a) Vietnam War starts small but grows larger as the Decade progresses, despite opposition to it;
b) African Americans begin to press for Rights in the South bringing many Southern States into conflict with the Federal Government and other States;
c) Baby Boomers begin the Protest the war in Vietnam, especially because of the Draft
d) Women begin to press for their Rights
e) Baby Boomers begin to reject Tradition en masse, bringing birth to not only the Drug Culture and associated movements(Hippies, Beatniks for eg), but also bringing about a major reconfiguration of Religious views(Eastern Religions are embraced, Traditional Christian views rejected, New Christian sects flourish). In short, the very Culture of the US is revolutionized.
9) The Expense and Domestic turmoil caused by the Vietnam War begin to affect the Economy ending the Post War(WW2) Boom
10) The early 70's is when many events came to a head.
a) the Hippy movement comes to a disillussionary end
b) The Vietnam War is lost
c) The US President(Nixon) Resigns in Shame
d) the Oil Embargo turns a slowing Economy caused by the War into an Economic Crisis the lasts through the Decade
11) the 70's are years of malaise fueled by the defeat in Vietnam and the Economic crisis caused by the Oil Embargo, that is capitalized by the Iranian Revolution and its' subsequent Attack on the US Embassy and the Hostage Crisis.
12) Reagan comes onto the scene bringing a sense of Optimism that shakes off the Malaise seeing the end of Vietnam Defeatism, the Hostage Crisis, and the Economic Crisis
13) Reagan institutes a Counter Revolution against the 60's Culture Revolution, US Foreign Policy(re-engages War against Communism in various parts of the World), and Capitalism(which hadn't really been addressed since the GD)
14) as a consequence of 13, the US Economy Booms, Optomism returns, and the Cold War eventually comes to a head and ends
15) Bush Sr announces the New World Order and he isn't joking. Domestic Policy takes a back seat to Globalization and various other Foreign Affairs.
16) Without the Enemy of the USSR, the Domestic Ideological Divide begins to come to a head. No longer do Fear and Struggle moderate the level of Domestic discourse. It's not just a Left/Right divide either, but a whole myriad of things:
a) Of course Left/Right is one;
b) Federal/State Jurisdiction is another;
c) Race issues
d) and, really the heart of all the previous on this List, Regional issues. The Regional issues are mainly focused on the "South" and really have their roots all the way back to the Civil War, making it an especially troublesome problem for the US
17) 9/11 happens. I'm really not sure how to view 9/11, Iraq, or even Afghanistan yet. Historically anyway, I certainly have strong Opinions on what they'll Probably mean and I have stated them many times, but it's still too early to really be definitive about those subjects in context of this Post(which is trying to be neutrally Analytical, although I'm sure my opinion bleeds through in parts, but whatever). What I do think 9/11 and these other events show though, is that when faced with an external Enemy, the US can put the Domestic Ideological divide on the back burner to simmer(still is there, just quiets down). In the Longterm an External Enemy can not continue to be a way to avoid the Domestic Divide, it is a festering wound that threatens unity. The end of the Bush Jr era with its' winding down of the Iraq War and the fading emotions caused by 9/11 have reinvigorated the Domestic Divide, but this time it has taken on an ugliness that makes the Clinton witch hunts look like a walk in the park. If the US can't work things out, I suspect I'll live to see the next US Civil War.
18) Fast Forward to today and we see yet another Roaring 20's scenario end in a failure of "Capitalism" Note: "Capitalism" doesn't mean Capitalism, it is just a narrowly defined form of Capitalism that seems to get embraced by Americans from time to time and always seems to end with a tragic bang.
Summary
All y'all need to fix this shit before y'all are fucked
The US has been avoiding the Ideological divide for a very longtime and during that time a lot of events took place that increased the divide, yet it was rather hidden due to other circumstances. In short:
1) The Roaring 20's were the US's first real taste of Modern Wealth and Affluence
2) The Great Depression occurred, destroying that Wealth/Affluence and pretty much Capitalism as well
3) The GD caused an upsurge in Communism within the US and FDR moved the US to the Left for 2 Reasons: a) to placate the growing political power of Communism; and b) because the Left had solutions to the Crisis
4) WW2 occurred which accomplished basically 2 things: a) reinvigorated the Economy but also got the population off the Unemployment lines; b) made everyone forget about the GD
5) WW2 ended with a Bang(literally). Not only did the Horror of that War no longer hang over the heads of Americans, but the Atomic Bombs ushered in an Age(for a short time anyway) of US Dominance and Invincibility
6) As American's returned home from Overseas and settled back into Civilian life they had a completely new optimistic outlook, completely forgetting about the GD, going forward creating a Booming Economy and an upsurge in Population through Birth(the Baby Boomers).
7) The USSR develops the Bomb and the Cold War begins. The US begins to embrace "Capitalism" as a rallying cry against the "Communist" threat. Invincibility turns into Vulnerability, Optimism to Fear, Unity to Disunity(McCarthy witch hunts)
8) Baby Boomers begin to reach Voting Age and the 60's happen:
a) Vietnam War starts small but grows larger as the Decade progresses, despite opposition to it;
b) African Americans begin to press for Rights in the South bringing many Southern States into conflict with the Federal Government and other States;
c) Baby Boomers begin the Protest the war in Vietnam, especially because of the Draft
d) Women begin to press for their Rights
e) Baby Boomers begin to reject Tradition en masse, bringing birth to not only the Drug Culture and associated movements(Hippies, Beatniks for eg), but also bringing about a major reconfiguration of Religious views(Eastern Religions are embraced, Traditional Christian views rejected, New Christian sects flourish). In short, the very Culture of the US is revolutionized.
9) The Expense and Domestic turmoil caused by the Vietnam War begin to affect the Economy ending the Post War(WW2) Boom
10) The early 70's is when many events came to a head.
a) the Hippy movement comes to a disillussionary end
b) The Vietnam War is lost
c) The US President(Nixon) Resigns in Shame
d) the Oil Embargo turns a slowing Economy caused by the War into an Economic Crisis the lasts through the Decade
11) the 70's are years of malaise fueled by the defeat in Vietnam and the Economic crisis caused by the Oil Embargo, that is capitalized by the Iranian Revolution and its' subsequent Attack on the US Embassy and the Hostage Crisis.
12) Reagan comes onto the scene bringing a sense of Optimism that shakes off the Malaise seeing the end of Vietnam Defeatism, the Hostage Crisis, and the Economic Crisis
13) Reagan institutes a Counter Revolution against the 60's Culture Revolution, US Foreign Policy(re-engages War against Communism in various parts of the World), and Capitalism(which hadn't really been addressed since the GD)
14) as a consequence of 13, the US Economy Booms, Optomism returns, and the Cold War eventually comes to a head and ends
15) Bush Sr announces the New World Order and he isn't joking. Domestic Policy takes a back seat to Globalization and various other Foreign Affairs.
16) Without the Enemy of the USSR, the Domestic Ideological Divide begins to come to a head. No longer do Fear and Struggle moderate the level of Domestic discourse. It's not just a Left/Right divide either, but a whole myriad of things:
a) Of course Left/Right is one;
b) Federal/State Jurisdiction is another;
c) Race issues
d) and, really the heart of all the previous on this List, Regional issues. The Regional issues are mainly focused on the "South" and really have their roots all the way back to the Civil War, making it an especially troublesome problem for the US
17) 9/11 happens. I'm really not sure how to view 9/11, Iraq, or even Afghanistan yet. Historically anyway, I certainly have strong Opinions on what they'll Probably mean and I have stated them many times, but it's still too early to really be definitive about those subjects in context of this Post(which is trying to be neutrally Analytical, although I'm sure my opinion bleeds through in parts, but whatever). What I do think 9/11 and these other events show though, is that when faced with an external Enemy, the US can put the Domestic Ideological divide on the back burner to simmer(still is there, just quiets down). In the Longterm an External Enemy can not continue to be a way to avoid the Domestic Divide, it is a festering wound that threatens unity. The end of the Bush Jr era with its' winding down of the Iraq War and the fading emotions caused by 9/11 have reinvigorated the Domestic Divide, but this time it has taken on an ugliness that makes the Clinton witch hunts look like a walk in the park. If the US can't work things out, I suspect I'll live to see the next US Civil War.
18) Fast Forward to today and we see yet another Roaring 20's scenario end in a failure of "Capitalism" Note: "Capitalism" doesn't mean Capitalism, it is just a narrowly defined form of Capitalism that seems to get embraced by Americans from time to time and always seems to end with a tragic bang.
Summary
All y'all need to fix this shit before y'all are fucked
JSt0rm
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 27,399
- 3,948
- 126
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
Wow. Just when I once again think your "Fail" posts would be better on 'Ignore', you post a true gem. I don't of course agree with all of it, but I am impressed. Thanks for the post.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,874
- 6,411
- 126
There's a pattern developing here.
Not to Self: 1 good Post a month keeps werepossum from pushing the button
Thanks again.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
A couple of things.
First, Obama cannot get people together on common values, because there are no such things.
Second, although it wasn't mentioned by Obama, the "Dems vs Reps" is THE recurring theme in politics, and important in all this is the concept of "bipartisanship".
Let's translate that from Polispeak. Bipartisan means that one party is free to adopt the ideology of the other.
The only compromise possible is not for Obama to make. It's on the part of Congress, and neither side is interested in anything other than throttling their opponents, hopefully making themselves look good in the process.
Therefore, it's absurd that Obama should even bring this up. He ought to know what a lot of us do.
The rhetoric is useless.
First, Obama cannot get people together on common values, because there are no such things.
Second, although it wasn't mentioned by Obama, the "Dems vs Reps" is THE recurring theme in politics, and important in all this is the concept of "bipartisanship".
Let's translate that from Polispeak. Bipartisan means that one party is free to adopt the ideology of the other.
The only compromise possible is not for Obama to make. It's on the part of Congress, and neither side is interested in anything other than throttling their opponents, hopefully making themselves look good in the process.
Therefore, it's absurd that Obama should even bring this up. He ought to know what a lot of us do.
The rhetoric is useless.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Well, I understand he intends to push immigration reform, if it's like I expect it'll do anything but unite us.
Fern
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
There are surely SOME uniting beliefs among Americans though, otherwise we are totally screwed. Obama came in as a ruler; he wanted people united beneath him rather than behind them. His definition of bipartisanship was that conservatives and Republicans line up and do as they were told. Pelosi and Reid probably share a great deal of blame for the debacle that followed in the way they ran the show. Obama could have stopped that, but probably didn't want to interrupt the flow of things when they were looking his way.
Still, that doesn't mean Obama can't move to the center and find common ground with most Americans. If he does that and regains the people's trust, and adopts the Reagan principle of convincing the American people rather than attempting to convince the mandarin class, then he could conceivably get some of his agenda passed. As someone wise once said: "If the people will lead, the leaders will follow." Obama just needs to slow down, convince the folks on one issue, then insist on well-crafted, effective legislation drafted as he promised - transparently. I don't know how much of it I would agree with - probably not much, being generally right of center - but I can see ways he could still have a successful presidency. We should all remember that he came to this office singularly unprepared, so what he does this year might be radically different from what he does in 2010 and 2011.
As previously mentioned in this thread, the stimulus bill was made nearly 40% tax cuts specifically as a gesture towards more conservative people, and this was done despite the fact that tax cuts were widely viewed as some of the less effective means to stimulate the economy.
And why on earth would no Republicans voting for something be a sign that Obama hadn't attempted to be bipartisan? If the Republicans hadn't attempted to be bipartisan the exact same thing would have happened. I gave the reason that quite a bit of the stimulus bill was at odds with liberal ideology as evidence for the Democrats attempting to be bipartisan. What evidence can you offer that the Republicans were doing the same?
As I have asked others in the past, the bill that was passed was 60% spending and 40% tax cuts (roughly), and you view this as a partisan, party line bill. What proportion of tax cuts and spending do you believe would have been a 'bipartisan' bill?
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
You're probably not going to like this, but I believe that over the last two generations, Americans have become self centered brats. The common factor is "where's my stuff?" As long as gas is reasonably affordable, there aren't too many interruptions of America Idol, and it's someone else who needs a job, all's well.
If you think that what Obama has been pushing for is 'extremist' you have literally no comprehension of the word. There's a reason why the left is angry with Obama, did you stop to think what it is? It's because he's been so centrist.
I think you have lost the concept of how the political spectrum actually works, and you are so far to the right that centrism looks like the ultra left.
What? No, I'm not a woman. Like I said, your racism exists in a largely independent way from your extreme political partisanship. They feed one another at the edges, like you can hate affirmative action because you hate minorities and because you don't like government favoring groups, but there should be no mistake about your extreme racism as you have shown on here over and over and over again.
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
I agree totally, and would only add "in love with government's power to punish and reward" to the first sentence. In a democratic republic, the biggest problem with politicians is always the people who elected them. If we demanded better, we'd have better. Instead we vote for the candidate who seems most like us or who promises to give us the most stuff with no research of their past behavior and no monitoring of the future behavior. Still, even self centered brats can have SOME redeeming qualities (like a really nice rack, for instance) and SOME common values.
By the way, this isn't just an American problem. I've seen similar problems reported in Red China, England and Italy.
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
A politician who rises to the White House knows we don't like to hear honest things.
retrospooty
Platinum Member
- Apr 3, 2002
- 2,031
- 74
- 86
Err... sorry. This nation has been polarized for a long LONG time. Its not like Obama made it worse. I do think he could be doing a lot better of a job trying to make it better.
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
- 9,454
- 0
- 0
Well, except for the factual point that you can find no posts which indicate I am a racist. But otherwise I'll agree with you,. I'm a dirty old greedy rich white guy who hates minorities. RAWR! Soon as I figure out the proper level of grinding to feed their entrails into my Evil Rich White Guy Machine I'll be rich!!
Well, richer I guess, because I'm already a Evil Rich White Guy.
Last edited:
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
- 9,454
- 0
- 0
Color me impressed. I dont agree with all of your points but thats pretty close I would say.
Who are you trying to impress? Nobody cares if you are rich. You have been called out on numerous occasions by several people due to your history of making racist statements. It's sad, but I'll hold out the hope that someday you grow up.
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
- 9,454
- 0
- 0
Noooo....I'm called racist because people are unwilling to admit the facts I post and would rather live in the fantasy world of unicorns and fairys.
Blacks represent the highest percentage of inmates in prison. Thats not racist, thats just the truth.
Minorities often dont test as well in proficiency tests. Thats not racist, thats just the truth. In fact some firemen recently filed a lawsuit because the test results were rejected and promoting was done on basis of color rather than ability.
Should I go on? You can call it racist. I dont care. Others can call it racist. Great. It never has, nor will it ever, change the facts.
So really what it comes down to is the inability of people to deal with reality, so to hide from the harsh light they throw around the racist card in offhand ways to try to rally support for their cause.
Not that racism would ever be used in such a way.....
Now if you'll excuse me, me and my Evil Rich White Buddies need to discuss where we're going to find more starving African babies to feed to the Halliburton Weather Machine.
DesiPower
Lifer
- Nov 22, 2008
- 15,299
- 740
- 126
Election season is around the corner and Americans will see more and more new twists and turns never seen before US politics... Coming from a country whose political scene is a giant shit cistern - this does not surprise me at all. He has just started to prepare his ground work, it will all make sense once he successfully pulls the wool over the eyes of the entire country once again.
Muse
Lifer
- Jul 11, 2001
- 41,339
- 10,461
- 136
I'd put JFK above Obama quite a bit. We may well have had a global nuclear war had Nixon won, among a thousand other reasons.
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