Obama begins buildup in Afghanistan

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Lemon law
bamacre asks, " I supported going in there, but since OBL and al-Zawahiri were allowed to escape into Pakistan, aren't we just now nation-building in Afghanistan?"

Certainly nation building is what we should be doing in Afghanistan, but its been a tee total failure because we have allocated no resources towards any nation building. So call it what it is, nation tearing down leaving a legacy of total corruption and anarchy in Afghanistan. Somewhat the Afghan track record, Afghanistan has not had a stable government since 1937.

And now we wonder why the tribal areas of Pakistan want no part of that glorious Nato export of violence and anarchy?

And yet our government thinks we can put a stable gov't there?

Maybe I am pessimistic, but I see us throwing away more men and women, and more trillions of dollars into another failure.

This isn't change.

Its change. Boy is it change . The war will likely use more deadly weapons . A change we can all take comfort in.


Big day for me today. I never thought I would see this . Thank you Lord. 2/17/51. My birth date.

 

[Red Dawn]

I just hope it's not late late and to fucked up from our last Administration screwing it up.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

I just hope it's not late late and to fucked up from our last Administration screwing it up.

What Red said. :thumbsup:

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: bamacre
So what exactly are we still doing in Afghanistan, and what exactly is our exit strategy?

Well considering we haven't really done anything there up until now we have a lot to do. Bush really made shit hard for his successor.

How so? We won in iraq, now focus elsewhere. If anything Bush left things pretty much cleaned up war wise.

Mission Accomplished!

I'd insert a smiley face here, but this makes it a bit difficult.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: bamacre
So what exactly are we still doing in Afghanistan, and what exactly is our exit strategy?

Well considering we haven't really done anything there up until now we have a lot to do. Bush really made shit hard for his successor.

How so? We won in iraq, now focus elsewhere. If anything Bush left things pretty much cleaned up war wise.

Ahahahahahahahahayhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Spidey, you are absolutely priceless!

:thumbsup:

 

[daniel49]

Afghanistan will be a piece of cake, as now we are not cowboys anymore.
We have Mr (world) congeniality who is so popular and multilateral that the rest of our allies will step up and begin bearing thier portion of the burden. Allowing us to annually spend trillions at home.
No longer will you see token forces hiding in the backlines as thier govts whine about being there at all.
OBL seeing how outclassed he is will text BHO on his blackberry to surrender ending 8 years of Cowboyaucity
And the Afghani will live happily ever after.

THE END

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

I just hope it's not late late and to fucked up from our last Administration screwing it up.

What Red said. :thumbsup:

Your right Clinton put us down a road thats unrecoverable. Just crazy to give home loans to people with bad credit and low wages. You blast bush all ya want for Irag. But this banking thats the dems work . They passed the laws that allowed this. Its only fitting that the Dems get the fruits of there labor. They will never get away with putting this on bush . This is clintons baby . All know this.

We really won't know the full impact of Bushes Eight nears for at least another year. Or longer. It took 7 years for clintons laws to cause the housing bubble.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: bamacre

Harvey, since no one else answered my question, perhaps you can. What exactly is our exit strategy in Afghanistan? What goals do we have?

I don't have an answer. When it comes to running a miltary, I'm good electronic design engineer and a competent musician.

The Bushwhackos had plenty of good advice about that before they launched, almost all of which they ignored with the obviously pathetic results. We now have a real President with a real brain. I can only hope he's asked those questions and come up with some realistic answers.

As you know, I am in 100% agreement with you regarding Dick head and shit4brains and their misadventure into Iraq.

But don't you think Obama should fully address the answers to my questions, including costs, before he beefs up our presence in Afghanistan?

Those who carried out the attacks didn't start out, here, and the attacks were planned in Afghanistan and coordinated by Al Qaeda.

I should have been more clear with my statement. If we instead focused on who is here, and who gets here, why do we need to worry much less spend infinite resources caring about what goes on in the crap hole that is Afghanistan?

As far as "nation building" goes, call it whatever you want, I hope we're up to doing whatever it takes to help the Afghani's establish a peaceful nation free of Al Qaeda and Taliban tyranny. Along the way, it would be nice if we could leave them free of the need to continue supplying the world with opium.

Well, except for the opium, which is a whole other topic, that's what we were doing in Iraq, which neither of us supported, right? Which we couldn't afford, in costs of lives and dollars, right?

We can only hope we can convince the Afghani people that's in their best interests, as well. We certainly can't impose all of that on them without their cooperation and participation.

But we can't. They don't accept our way of life or government. Much of it goes against their beliefs. I'm not speaking for all Afghani's, but it seems to me that way too many hold those views.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: bamacre

Harvey, since no one else answered my question, perhaps you can. What exactly is our exit strategy in Afghanistan? What goals do we have?

I don't have an answer. When it comes to running a miltary, I'm good electronic design engineer and a competent musician.

The Bushwhackos had plenty of good advice about that before they launched, almost all of which they ignored with the obviously pathetic results. We now have a real President with a real brain. I can only hope he's asked those questions and come up with some realistic answers.

Those who planned the attacks on 9/11 may have been overseas, but those who carried out the attacks were inside our borders. I support going after OBL and al-Zawahiri, but I don't support the nation-building, especially in countries that are no longer a threat to us. The casualties aren't worth it, and the financial costs aren't worth it, hell we can't afford either, IMO.

Those who carried out the attacks didn't start out, here, and the attacks were planned in Afghanistan and coordinated by Al Qaeda.

As far as "nation building" goes, call it whatever you want, I hope we're up to doing whatever it takes to help the Afghani's establish a peaceful nation free of Al Qaeda and Taliban tyranny. Along the way, it would be nice if we could leave them free of the need to continue supplying the world with opium.

We can only hope we can convince the Afghani people that's in their best interests, as well. We certainly can't impose all of that on them without their cooperation and participation.

Youre out of your mind. Opium accounts for almost one half of the country's GDP. Its got about the worst infrastructure in the region. You speak of cooperation...from who exactly? The people? Bwahahaha...they will bow to those who rule them-the Taliban. The government? Right. They will not give up their cash cow-opium.

The fact is, unless we nation build, nothing will change there. You think the Iraq war is expensive? We aint seen NOTHING yet. Wait till we nation build in Afghanistan.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: bamacre
So what exactly are we still doing in Afghanistan, and what exactly is our exit strategy?

Well considering we haven't really done anything there up until now we have a lot to do. Bush really made shit hard for his successor.

How so? We won in iraq, now focus elsewhere. If anything Bush left things pretty much cleaned up war wise.

tap...tap...tap.

Dammit. Anyone have some spare batteries? I think my sarcasm detector just fried.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

The fact is, unless we nation build, nothing will change there. You think the Iraq war is expensive? We aint seen NOTHING yet. Wait till we nation build in Afghanistan.

Yeah, I speak from first hand knowledge, Afghanistan is a total shit hole and has NOTHING. The land cant even support food crop, so switching from opium does no good.

 

[yllus]

Realistically, Afghanistan can never be tamed. A few cities in the nation can be patrolled day and night and the citizens inside protected for the most part, but the vast majority of the country is harsh terrain which has been controlled by nobody for as long as the human race has existed.

The only positive endgame in that theatre of war is to industrialize and enrich the urban parts of the country enough to tempt those in the mountains to come down and abandon their productive rocks-and-IED farming career. Then hand control over to the Afghanis themselves while keeping a few bases here and there to launch quick strikes as needed on the Afghan-Pakistani border, which will never be safe. Should take ten or twenty years if we start immediately.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: yllus
Realistically, Afghanistan can never be tamed. A few cities in the nation can be patrolled day and night and the citizens inside protected for the most part, but the vast majority of the country is harsh terrain which has been controlled by nobody for as long as the human race has existed.

The only positive endgame in that theatre of war is to industrialize and enrich the urban parts of the country enough to tempt those in the mountains to come down and abandon their productive rocks-and-IED farming career. Then hand control over to the Afghanis themselves while keeping a few bases here and there to launch quick strikes as needed on the Afghan-Pakistani border, which will never be safe. Should take ten or twenty years if we start immediately.

I really didn't care who won the election . I think its to late for even an Honest smart stateman to stop this. I was hoping for alittle peace time between wars. I got tell ya guys . Were looking really realy bad here. I rather not have the oil . . With the $$$ spent this week . We could have moved to an oil free nation. As far as heating and everday life. WE THE PEOPLE would be secure. But its more than just . The facts starring me in the face. This stimulus package . Did little to insure Americas energy concerns . OUR NuMBER 1 problem and it was basicly ignored/ Thats tells me we have our eyes on building a pipeline from the caspien sea threw Afganastan. Now The only way that can happen . Is if ever Afganastan Warlord and his followers are killed. Or the pipeline will never be secure. I know our guys know this . If I know it . They know it.

Which means genecide. But genecide is nothing new to Americans. Ask the Few remaining American Indian tribes.

You guys should step back . Maybe reflect for a moment. Is this the kind of homeland secruity we want. The Fatherland. :thumbsdown:

Is this how you want Americas energy needs met. I am serious . Your advolaticing genecide here. You will deny it . But America will never WIN a war there . NOT ever. They can't lose control of that ground . Many tried . Maybe ya should find out why. Its interesting.

. So without a victory the only way to secure the pipeline will be threw genecide. Under the guize there all terrorist. All the while the true terrorist is planely seen by its actions.

This is what you want. So be it. On that day it starts in full scale . That day brings a great woe. So it was written . So it shall be.

 

[cliftonite]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: evident

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Yes, we need to concentrate on Afghanistan. If we dumped the soldiers there instead of Iraq, we would at least have a chance at an exit-strategy by now.

:Q WTF are you smoking? This is the same war, different theater.

Body bags containing soldiers from Iraq = bad.
Body bags containing soldiers from Afghanistan = OK.

Afghanistan- Taliban government harbored and fostered AQ which attacked US interests in the US, Middle East, and Africa

Iraq- Not so much




How are they the same war again?

afghan war = legit war
iraq = bs that shouldn't of been started

All the fuckers who are in Iraq taking shots at us (because they can) will simply move and take shots at us in Afghanistan. Same fucking war.

Wrong. Iraq is a civil-war type issue. 2 Islamic factions who are in an armed struggle to control the country, and a seperatist Kurd faction in the North.

Yes, we catch Persian fighters and weapons, but that is Iran just meddling in some cold-war style action. Nothing new.

Afghanistan has a fragile and limited central government that we put in place. However, most of the country is lawless and some is under control of the Taliban and AQ, who need to be wiped out.

Oh OK. So we arent going to replace the government, because we like 'em. Instead, we're going to put tens of thousands of boots on the ground and do what we're doing in Iraq...patrol looking for bad guys, and get shot at by said bad guys.

Got it. Different war.

So the fact that we "get shot at by bad guys" makes it the same war?


Ok, then.

We will be in a country that poses no threat to us.

The government is a shell, and the country is run by the Taliban, whom we will be hunting by foot. Arent we hunting the bad guys on foot in Iraq?

The Taliban will be planting bombs for us to walk and drive over.

The Taliban has the support of the people (mostly by fear I suppose) and will be able to recruit others in their fight.

I guess in Iraq we have two factions that dont want us there, in Afghanastan we'll have one. Same net result.

We will be sending body bags home because of this.

Is any of this sounding familiar?

The factions in Iraq got there after we started the war. We chose to get shot by bad guys in Iraq.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: cliftonite

The factions in Iraq got there after we started the war. We chose to get shot by bad guys in Iraq.

Kurds, Shi'ites, etc werent there before us? News to me....

And thanks for reinforcing my point: we are choosing to get shot at in Afghanistan. Great choice, eh?

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

tap...tap...tap.

Dammit. Anyone have some spare batteries? I think my sarcasm detector just fried.

No sarcasm. Obama is basically continuing the success and Bush's stated direction of most of 2007/2008. (surge anyone?)

And again, now that he has access to all of the information the office has he is doing what is needed.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: cliftonite

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: evident

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Yes, we need to concentrate on Afghanistan. If we dumped the soldiers there instead of Iraq, we would at least have a chance at an exit-strategy by now.

:Q WTF are you smoking? This is the same war, different theater.

Body bags containing soldiers from Iraq = bad.
Body bags containing soldiers from Afghanistan = OK.

Afghanistan- Taliban government harbored and fostered AQ which attacked US interests in the US, Middle East, and Africa

Iraq- Not so much




How are they the same war again?

afghan war = legit war
iraq = bs that shouldn't of been started

All the fuckers who are in Iraq taking shots at us (because they can) will simply move and take shots at us in Afghanistan. Same fucking war.

Wrong. Iraq is a civil-war type issue. 2 Islamic factions who are in an armed struggle to control the country, and a seperatist Kurd faction in the North.

Yes, we catch Persian fighters and weapons, but that is Iran just meddling in some cold-war style action. Nothing new.

Afghanistan has a fragile and limited central government that we put in place. However, most of the country is lawless and some is under control of the Taliban and AQ, who need to be wiped out.

Oh OK. So we arent going to replace the government, because we like 'em. Instead, we're going to put tens of thousands of boots on the ground and do what we're doing in Iraq...patrol looking for bad guys, and get shot at by said bad guys.

Got it. Different war.

So the fact that we "get shot at by bad guys" makes it the same war?


Ok, then.

We will be in a country that poses no threat to us.

The government is a shell, and the country is run by the Taliban, whom we will be hunting by foot. Arent we hunting the bad guys on foot in Iraq?

The Taliban will be planting bombs for us to walk and drive over.

The Taliban has the support of the people (mostly by fear I suppose) and will be able to recruit others in their fight.

I guess in Iraq we have two factions that dont want us there, in Afghanastan we'll have one. Same net result.

We will be sending body bags home because of this.

Is any of this sounding familiar?

The factions in Iraq got there after we started the war. We chose to get shot by bad guys in Iraq.

If your in Iraq. Your getting shot at . Chances are the people of Iraq have a differant perspective of who the BAD GUY is. In America we all know who the bad guy was . Don't we Bush.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
http://www.cnn.com/

wahoo, we get a new president, we begin ramping up a new/old war... yes we have been in afghanistan but we dont need to police the world... wtf..

nothing new about this war, as it was begun in 2001 and subsequently ignored due to Iraq.

I'd say the operation in Afghanistan has a larger and more diverse support base as well. Even before 9/11, there were several human rights groups (typically Liberal/left-leaning) spreading awareness about the Taliban and urging the US "to act" in removing them from power. Despite the fact that you'd be attacking what is essentially an already decimated and impoverished people, there was an established precedent, of sorts, to take out the Taliban.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Yes, we need to concentrate on Afghanistan. If we dumped the soldiers there instead of Iraq, we would at least have a chance at an exit-strategy by now.

:Q WTF are you smoking? This is the same war, different theater.

Body bags containing soldiers from Iraq = bad.
Body bags containing soldiers from Afghanistan = OK.

Afghanistan- Taliban government harbored and fostered AQ which attacked US interests in the US, Middle East, and Africa

Iraq- Not so much




How are they the same war again?

:thumbsup:

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: evident

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Yes, we need to concentrate on Afghanistan. If we dumped the soldiers there instead of Iraq, we would at least have a chance at an exit-strategy by now.

:Q WTF are you smoking? This is the same war, different theater.

Body bags containing soldiers from Iraq = bad.
Body bags containing soldiers from Afghanistan = OK.

Afghanistan- Taliban government harbored and fostered AQ which attacked US interests in the US, Middle East, and Africa

Iraq- Not so much




How are they the same war again?

afghan war = legit war
iraq = bs that shouldn't of been started

Why? Because AQ lived and did business there? Please. Iraq was a valid war at least in the beginning. Whats going to happen now? Are we going to overthrow the Afghan gov't? If not, what then? Boots all over the place shooting at bad guys? WTF?

All the fuckers who are in Iraq taking shots at us (because they can) will simply move and take shots at us in Afghanistan. Same fucking war.

so, even when the beginning of the war was predicated on lies (that you seem to have believed at the time), it was legitimate?

Even though those lies were exposed for what they were, you still think it was legitimate? Lies are lies. It doesn't suddenly become illegitimate when you realize what was there all along.

You can't see Iraq has illegitimate if you supported it at the start. It's legitimacy depends entirely on the rationale for invasion.

Try again.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

wahoo, we get a new president, we begin ramping up a new/old war... yes we have been in afghanistan but we dont need to police the world... wtf..

Get a clue. Al Qaeda... you remember... the guys who actually hit us on 9-11... were holed up in Afghanistan where they were given sanctuary by the Taliban. Going after them, there is the war we were right to pursue, and it's the war we should have, and WOULD have won by now if the EX Traitor In Chief hadn't taken his eye off the ball to pursue his petty ego trip in Iraq.

The threat they pose is still real, and the fact that the Bushwhackos so totally screwed the pooch in every respect just allowed them to regain strength and renew their attacks on us and the rest of the world and made us that much less secure.

The only way to we get AQ is to invade Pakistan, a nuclear nation. There is a tight rope to walk in Afghanistan. Should be interesting to see how Obama handles it. Bush stayed with the remote drone\covert operation plan.

I think what we are doing in Pakistan is enough. Those cave-dwellers cant even take a comfortable dump now without thinking that a Hellfire may come through the window at any moment.

iirc, Obama ordered more strikes in Pakistan by his 2nd day in office? maybe 3rd. Anyway, that mission continues as is, which, I think, is a good thing.

It seems that the Pakistani gov't supports the action behind closed doors, but maintains the public voice of protest as such actions are extremely unpopular among the citizenry. They really have no other choice.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: yllus
Realistically, Afghanistan can never be tamed. A few cities in the nation can be patrolled day and night and the citizens inside protected for the most part, but the vast majority of the country is harsh terrain which has been controlled by nobody for as long as the human race has existed.

The only positive endgame in that theatre of war is to industrialize and enrich the urban parts of the country enough to tempt those in the mountains to come down and abandon their productive rocks-and-IED farming career. Then hand control over to the Afghanis themselves while keeping a few bases here and there to launch quick strikes as needed on the Afghan-Pakistani border, which will never be safe. Should take ten or twenty years if we start immediately.

Oh it could be tamed overnight, the West is just not willing to adopt Taliban Methodolgy and nuances and why we are spinning our wheels.

 

[Pocatello]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: yllus
Realistically, Afghanistan can never be tamed. A few cities in the nation can be patrolled day and night and the citizens inside protected for the most part, but the vast majority of the country is harsh terrain which has been controlled by nobody for as long as the human race has existed.

The only positive endgame in that theatre of war is to industrialize and enrich the urban parts of the country enough to tempt those in the mountains to come down and abandon their productive rocks-and-IED farming career. Then hand control over to the Afghanis themselves while keeping a few bases here and there to launch quick strikes as needed on the Afghan-Pakistani border, which will never be safe. Should take ten or twenty years if we start immediately.

Oh it could be tamed overnight, the West is just not willing to adopt Taliban Methodolgy and nuances and why we are spinning our wheels.

Right, we have to kill them to save them. As much as I hate the Talibans, we have to negotiate with them, maybe not now but later on. I don't see the US winning this war through military means. I think Pres Obama has recognized this. The Talibans are the people in Southern Afghanistan and bordering Pakistan, they're not going to convert into something we want. The Talibans have stated they no longer support Al-Queda, they have lost a great deal because of their ties to Al-Queda (spelled wrong, I think), while Al-Queda just moved on to some where else, like Pakistan. We still have to remember who orchestrated the 9/11 attack, they weren't Afghans or Iraqis, something that George Bush had conveniently forgotten.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
http://www.cnn.com/

wahoo, we get a new president, we begin ramping up a new/old war... yes we have been in afghanistan but we dont need to police the world... wtf..

nothing new about this war, as it was begun in 2001 and subsequently ignored due to Iraq.

I'd say the operation in Afghanistan has a larger and more diverse support base as well. Even before 9/11, there were several human rights groups (typically Liberal/left-leaning) spreading awareness about the Taliban and urging the US "to act" in removing them from power. Despite the fact that you'd be attacking what is essentially an already decimated and impoverished people, there was an established precedent, of sorts, to take out the Taliban.

I couldn't agree more. These people are an afront to mankind. But there is a reason for everthing. If there is such a thing as consperacy. You decide. I am sure you agree they do infact exist. How old are the oldiest of consperacies?

They are also staying inside their borders a soverne nation. Technicly you would be right in calling them a nation of Criminals and it would be a fact. First its there shit hole of a country. Its a freaken wasteland. The only interest we have there is oil. Any other reason is a fabracated lie to cover up the actions of the beast. Judge not least ye be judged.

. Who many people have to die over 9/11. A day that witnessed more historical First than an day ever in history. What happened on 9/11/91. How blood thristy are the American people for the Actions taken on 9/11 . How many have died since 200'000 . When is enough enough. WE going to pay Iraq for our war crimes. If they didn't do anything. Sure are a lot of dead. Someone has to be accountable.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: yllus
Realistically, Afghanistan can never be tamed. A few cities in the nation can be patrolled day and night and the citizens inside protected for the most part, but the vast majority of the country is harsh terrain which has been controlled by nobody for as long as the human race has existed.

The only positive endgame in that theatre of war is to industrialize and enrich the urban parts of the country enough to tempt those in the mountains to come down and abandon their productive rocks-and-IED farming career. Then hand control over to the Afghanis themselves while keeping a few bases here and there to launch quick strikes as needed on the Afghan-Pakistani border, which will never be safe. Should take ten or twenty years if we start immediately.

Oh it could be tamed overnight, the West is just not willing to adopt Taliban Methodolgy and nuances and why we are spinning our wheels.

Good for us!