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Obama administration seeking tighter gun control in four border states.

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/28/us-usa-firearms-mexico-


Obama administration seeks more comments on rifle sale plan
Thu, Apr 28 2011

By Jeremy Pelofsky

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Obama administration on Friday will seek another round of comments on its controversial proposal to require gun dealers in four states on the U.S.-Mexico border to report the sale of multiple rifles.

In a bid to curb the flow of guns into Mexico, where drug cartels have waged deadly wars to protect their business, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has sought to tighten reporting requirements in Arizona, Texas, New Mexico and California.

Under the proposal, dealers would have to report sales of two or more rifles to the same person at one time or during any five business days if the rifles are semi-automatic, with a caliber greater than .22 and detachable magazines.

The proposal will be published in the government's Federal Register on Friday seeking comments for 30 days, according to a copy obtained by Reuters on Thursday.

It was first published in December and had a 60-day comment period that garnered almost 13,000 responses. About 30 percent opposed the reporting requirement and 70 percent favored it, ATF said.

The second round of comment is typical for new regulations, according to ATF, and no substantive changes were made. After reviewing the new comments submitted, the proposal could be implemented or altered.

The proposed requirement has drawn intense criticism from the powerful gun lobby, the National Rifle Association, which has accused the Obama administration of using the violence in Mexico as a pretext to try to clamp down on gun sales.

ATF has denied such an effort, saying the records would be stored for two years and then disposed of if not used by investigators.

The issue of gun control will also likely be a theme during the 2012 presidential campaign. President Barack Obama last month sought to bring together differing sides to discuss ways to make gun laws more effective, a call the NRA has rejected.

An NRA spokesman said the recent controversy over an ATF undercover operation that may have allowed weapons to be sold to the drug cartels undermined the agency's credibility and would reverse support for the reporting demand.

"Going forth with this program while they were selling guns to known drug cartel members and asking shops to do so I think calls their credibility into question," said NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam.

Gun ownership in Mexico is prohibited and so the drug cartels try to get many of their weapons from the United States.

Approximately 8,500 gun dealers would be subject to the reporting requirements if adopted. About 36,000 reports of multiple hand gun sales were made from the four border states in fiscal 2010, according to the proposal.

ATF estimates there will be about 18,000 reports of multiple rifle sales from California, Texas, Arizona and New Mexico.

U.S. officials have been increasingly concerned about guns flowing over the border into Mexico after one U.S. immigration agent was shot dead and another was wounded by suspected drug cartel members on a highway in Mexico in February.

Tens of thousands of Mexicans have died in the raging drug violence since late 2006 when Mexican President Felipe Calderon took office and vowed to crush the cartels.

(Editing by Jerry Norton)

Never mind the fact that it was the fed agents at the ATF who apparently and irresponsibly allowed thousands of firearms to flood into Mexico.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEYuzOHItmg

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/03/eveningnews/main20039031.shtml

The Obama administration and the feds are seeking to squeeze tighter on the rights of Americans to allegedly try to ease Mexico's concerns. Thus Obama's false appeal for a middle-ground made a few months ago are hardly to be believe as being anything else but a move to go after the rights of law abiding Americans in this nation.
 
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I'm not sure how having to report the sale is an infringement on anyone's 2nd Amendment rights? It doesn't say you can't buy more than two AK47's, only that the gun store will report the sale, and if they see a trend the ATF may investigate to ensure that the guns aren't making their way into the hands of drug cartels.

Or is this seen as a slippery slope arguement?

I'm just trying to understand the issue a little better.
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/28/us-usa-firearms-mexico-




Never mind the fact that it was the fed agents at the ATF who apparently and irresponsibly allowed thousands of firearms to flood into Mexico.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEYuzOHItmg

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/03/eveningnews/main20039031.shtml

The Obama administration and the feds are seeking to squeeze tighter on the rights of Americans to allegedly try to ease Mexico's concerns. Thus Obama's false appeal for a middle-ground made a few months ago are hardly to be believe as being anything else but a move to go after the rights of law abiding Americans in this nation.

Exactly. The ATF fucked up, and now is trying to blame it on "drug cartels", funny that it happened right around the the that the progressives "statistic" about 90% guns confiscated in Mexico traced back to the US.

The ATF "whistle blower" shouldn't personally feel bad about the agent killed, fact is, they (cartels) would have got the guns from somewhere, just really sucks it was one of "ours".
 
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Yeah, I'd like to understand it a bit better myself.

I'm having a probllem seeing how this reporting will be helpful. I'm under the impression you already have to fill out paperwork. OK, a quick google search confirms that. It seems all they would need do is fax in a copy of Form 4473.

But my question is what are they going to do with this info? If they think they can follow up with Mexican drug members who are buying lots of guns I say good fuggin luck with that. If they are worried about some citizen buying guns for resale, OK. They are effectively illegal firearm dealers and should be punished.

But instead of buying 2 rifles from one store wouldn't you just buy 1 rifle from 2 stores to get around this?

Not sure how effective this may be.

Fern
 
I'm not sure how having to report the sale is an infringement on anyone's 2nd Amendment rights? It doesn't say you can't buy more than two AK47's, only that the gun store will report the sale, and if they see a trend the ATF may investigate to ensure that the guns aren't making their way into the hands of drug cartels.

Or is this seen as a slippery slope arguement?

I'm just trying to understand the issue a little better.


Attempting to place tighter regulations on gun sales on 4 border states to ease a phantom boggiemany of a problem (aka pretending that sales are not regulated enough) and ignoring the recent scandal in which ATF fed agents and the Justice Department allowed thousands of firearms to flood into Mexico is the issue along with a few more other items (lack of border control and enforcement, etc)
 
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I'm not sure how having to report the sale is an infringement on anyone's 2nd Amendment rights? It doesn't say you can't buy more than two AK47's, only that the gun store will report the sale, and if they see a trend the ATF may investigate to ensure that the guns aren't making their way into the hands of drug cartels.

Or is this seen as a slippery slope arguement?

I'm just trying to understand the issue a little better.

The government created the problem, and now is trying to curtail law-abiding Americans rights? Naw, nothing to see here, move along.
 
Yeah, I'd like to understand it a bit better myself.

I'm having a probllem seeing how this reporting will be helpful. I'm under the impression you already have to fill out paperwork. OK, a quick google search confirms that. It seems all they would need do is fax in a copy of Form 4473.

But my question is what are they going to do with this info? If they think they can follow up with Mexican drug members who are buying lots of guns I say good fuggin luck with that. If they are worried about some citizen buying guns for resale, OK. They are effectively illegal firearm dealers and should be punished.

But instead of buying 2 rifles from one store wouldn't you just buy 1 rifle from 2 stores to get around this?

Not sure how effective this may be.

Fern

Or just have two guys go in and buy one each, it's a retarded idea.
 
Yeah, I'd like to understand it a bit better myself.

I'm having a probllem seeing how this reporting will be helpful. I'm under the impression you already have to fill out paperwork. OK, a quick google search confirms that. It seems all they would need do is fax in a copy of Form 4473.

But my question is what are they going to do with this info? If they think they can follow up with Mexican drug members who are buying lots of guns I say good fuggin luck with that. If they are worried about some citizen buying guns for resale, OK. They are effectively illegal firearm dealers and should be punished.

But instead of buying 2 rifles from one store wouldn't you just buy 1 rifle from 2 stores to get around this?

Not sure how effective this may be.

Fern

Why is there a need for more reporting? Where has the case been laid out that the current regulations on sales are not enough? Why haven't they addressed the issue of the ATF and it's rogue program instead.

What Obama is doing is building a case for more regulation based on false pretense that, "Oh noes we don't have enough regulation of gun sales in these four states!" and not addressing the real issues at a hand that are directly linked to the flow of arms to drug cartels in Mexico.

1.) Rogue ATF elements

2.) Lack of sufficient border enforcement on the US side and Mexico's side.

3.) Mexico's own corrupt government and armed forces of whom a percentage have actual ties with the cartels and thus are a direct conduit for arms to these drug cartels for US weapons bought by the Mexican government.

Why is the issue being made out to be a "lack of regulation" in the sales of firearms in these states when it is not?
 
I guess this is too simple ...

Shouldn't Mexico be the one to stop guns from entering their country illegally?
 
how is reporting a sale tightening gun control?

They already know I own guns. Knowing when I buy multiple guns is not a big deal.

As long as its not public info, there is no issue.
 
I still haven't figured out where this magical US gunstore that sells fully automatic weapons and grenades to the Mexican drug cartels is? :hmm: I want to visit it!
 
how is reporting a sale tightening gun control?

They already know I own guns. Knowing when I buy multiple guns is not a big deal.

As long as its not public info, there is no issue.

The reporting of such sales would indicate that there is/will be, a database of people that have bought "questionable" firearms, which is of now there isn't other than the ATF for Class III weapons.

I still haven't figured out where this magical US gunstore that sells fully automatic weapons and grenades to the Mexican drug cartels is? :hmm: I want to visit it!

Doesn't exist. The weapons are civilian versions of scary military "style" weapons.
 
Doesn't exist. The weapons are civilian versions of scary military "style" weapons.

I know, I was trying to make the point that the cartels have much better sources of weapons than the neutered "assault rifles" that we can buy here.

Not to mention buying them from other sources would be cheaper and easier than smuggling them across the US border.
 
The reporting of such sales would indicate that there is/will be, a database of people that have bought "questionable" firearms, which is of now there isn't other than the ATF for Class III weapons.

I'm all for 2nd amendment rights but this rule isn't getting anywhere near impeding them. Let them have all the databases they want. Every (legal) firearm sale is already registered, so who cares if the dealer has to fill out one more if I buy 2 at the same time?
 
I'm all for 2nd amendment rights but this rule isn't getting anywhere near impeding them. Let them have all the databases they want. Every (legal) firearm sale is already registered, so who cares if the dealer has to fill out one more if I buy 2 at the same time?

Registration is a state thing, there's no registration in Texas. The idea of tracking people that buy two or more guns is absurd.
 
I'm all for 2nd amendment rights but this rule isn't getting anywhere near impeding them. Let them have all the databases they want. Every (legal) firearm sale is already registered, so who cares if the dealer has to fill out one more if I buy 2 at the same time?

Registration leads to confiscation.

There's no federal law requiring registration of long guns currently, and even in states like CA long guns aren't registered.
 
I'm all for 2nd amendment rights but this rule isn't getting anywhere near impeding them. Let them have all the databases they want. Every (legal) firearm sale is already registered, so who cares if the dealer has to fill out one more if I buy 2 at the same time?

Why should they be allowed to have a database of these sales?

Your point is moot if you can't actually provide a reason as to why the federal government should further intrude and add extra burdens to the sales of firearms in these states.

As it stands the evidence of the main culprits behind the arming of drug cartels are the Feds.

- Evidence mounts that government, not gun shops, arming Mexican cartels

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-...vernment-not-gun-shops-arming-mexican-cartels
 
I have no problem with this. I don't think the intent is to discourage the buyer, but to try and force sellers to be more discriminating. They only started seeking this requirement when it came to light through undercover investigation that there were a few gun shops in AZ within a few miles of the border were selling AK's 40-50 at a time to single buyers.


I agree it won't stop the flow of AK's to mexico, but it would make it a little more difficult than driving across the border and buying a pickup load and drive back across.
 
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Registration is a state thing, there's no registration in Texas. The idea of tracking people that buy two or more guns is absurd.

O rly?

I've had to register both long guns I purchased. I thought it was a federal thing.


I hereby admit I was wrong and accept any punishment as ATPN deems I deserve.
 
Problem is, it wasn't even rogue elements, it was supported all the way up to the Department of Justice.

You're right. Maybe this was my hope that these guys were just incomptent rather then underhandedly trying to inflame the situation in Mexico to be able to make their move to push for tighter controls on firearms in the US.
 
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Registration leads to confiscation.

There's no federal law requiring registration of long guns currently, and even in states like CA long guns aren't registered.

You've got to fill out Form 4473 and a photo ID is required. However, the Form stays with the FFL/gun dealer on file for forever. If the dealer goes out of business the BATF takes over the records for safe storage.

Fern
 
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