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Obama administration defending Bush secrets

Ozoned

Diamond Member
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This is quite a change from the promises made to get the vote from the people that demanded the opposite. Nothing like a big FUCK YOU to get your attention, huh? I don't believe that Obama has actually reneged on his promise, but rather that his lawyers are having a problem finding a legal way to pursue the witch hunt.


Obama administration defending Bush secrets
Justice Department seeks to hold back lawsuits as FOIA rules rewritten.

WASHINGTON - Despite President Barack Obama's vow to open government more than ever, the Justice Department is defending Bush administration decisions to keep secret many documents about domestic wiretapping, data collection on travelers and U.S. citizens, and interrogation of suspected terrorists.

In half a dozen lawsuits, Justice lawyers have opposed formal motions or spurned out-of-court offers to delay court action until the new administration rewrites Freedom of Information Act guidelines and decides whether the new rules might allow the public to see more.

In only one case has the Justice Department agreed to suspend a FOIA lawsuit until the disputed documents can be re-evaluated under the yet-to-be-written guidelines. That case involves negotiations on an anti-counterfeiting treaty, not the more controversial, secret anti-terrorism tactics that spawned the other lawsuits as well as Obama's promises of greater openness.

"The signs in the last few days are not entirely encouraging," said Jameel Jaffer, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union, which filed several lawsuits seeking the Bush administration's legal rationales for warrantless domestic wiretapping and for its treatment of terrorism detainees.

The documents sought in these lawsuits "are in many cases the documents that the public most needs to see," Jaffer said. "It makes no sense to say that these documents are somehow exempt from President Obama's directives."

Groups that advocate open government, civil liberties and privacy were overjoyed that Obama on his first day in office reversed the FOIA policy imposed by Bush's first attorney general, John Ashcroft. The Bush Justice Department said it would use any legitimate legal basis to defend withholding records from the public. Obama pledged "an unprecedented level of openness in government" and ordered new FOIA guidelines written with a "presumption in favor of disclosure."

But Justice's actions in courts since then have cast doubt on how far the new administration will go.

Justice: FBI did enough
In a FOIA case seeking access to the rules governing the FBI's Investigative Data Warehouse ? a computer database containing searchable documents about Americans and foreigners ? Justice lawyers told a district court here Thursday, "It is not clear that the new guidelines, once issued, will be retrospective to FOIA requests that the agency already has finished processing."

They asked the court to rule instead that the FBI has done enough. The bureau has reviewed 878 pages, withheld 76 and released some portions of 802.

To withhold some material, the FBI cited discretionary FOIA exemptions and ones that require balancing privacy and public interests. David Sobel, attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a San Francisco-based group that advocates civil liberties in cyberspace and brought the lawsuit, said those decisions might come out differently under the new guidelines
The issue isn't retroactivity, Sobel said. "The issue is whether the new administration is going to devote legal resources to fighting old battles now that the president has announced a fundamental change in the government's approach to FOIA."

Other lawsuits in which Justice's civil division has expressed opposition to delays until the administration writes its FOIA guidelines and uses them to review Bush decisions:

One seeking documents about the Automated Targeting System used by Customs officers to screen all travelers leaving or entering the country.
A case seeking records of lobbying by telecommunications companies to get legal immunity for cooperating in warrantless domestic wiretapping.
A case seeking Justice's legal opinions justifying that wiretapping. One of the plaintiff attorneys, Meredith Fuchs, of the National Security Archive, a private group that publishes formerly classified government documents, said, "I'm somewhat surprised they did not take the opportunity to look at these again, but maybe it's because the administration doesn't have all its top Justice appointees in office yet."
Three cases seeking Justice legal opinions about detention and interrogation of terrorism detainees. Civil division attorney Caroline Wolverton wrote the ACLU's Jaffer that Justice would proceed "consistent with the principles" in Obama's FOIA order "and also with due regard for the legitimate confidentiality interests of the executive branch and the national security interests of the United States."
Jaffer called that "a nonresponse response."

Two cases may be reviewed
So far, Justice has expressed willingness to review Bush decisions in two cases, only one because of FOIA changes.

Only in Sobel's lawsuit for anti-counterfeiting treaty documents has Justice joined a plaintiff to obtain a court delay to give the administration time to write FOIA guidelines and use them to "review its determinations on the documents at issue."

But that case is unusual because Justice is represented by its Office of Information and Privacy, not by the civil division that handles all the other FOIA lawsuits. The information and privacy office provides governmentwide guidance on how to obey the FOIA. Attorneys in these cases worry that the information and privacy office doesn't have the clout of the much larger civil division and may not control administration policy.

The civil division has sought a delay to review one case ? involving three 2005 Justice legal memos on the definition of "cruel and unusual" interrogation tactics. But its request didn't mention the new FOIA policy. Instead it said Obama's Jan. 22 executive order on detention and interrogation might alter the government position.

Even if the new administration reviews Bush decisions, that's no guarantee the outcome will change.

Last week, Attorney General Eric Holder announced a review of every court case in which the Bush administration used a different legal tool to preserve secrecy: the state secrets privilege it invoked a record number of times to have lawsuits thrown out. On the same day, however, civil division attorney Douglas Letter cited the state secrets privilege in asking a federal appeals court to uphold dismissal of a lawsuit accusing a Boeing Co. subsidiary of illegally helping the CIA fly suspected terrorists to allied foreign nations where they would be tortured.

Three times Letter assured the judges his position had been approved by Obama administration officials.

"This is not change," said ACLU executive director Anthony Romero. "President Obama's Justice Department has disappointingly reneged" on his promise to end "abuse of state secrets."

 
Bush fuck up so much the country, the government can't afford so many law suits, it a matter of national security.
 
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

I also believe this to be true. I do not believe that he had any idea the scope of the things the government does not tell its people.
 
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

I also believe this to be true. I do not believe that he had any idea the scope of the things the government does not tell its people.

Which is why everyone in the government should be tried for treason, and a constitutional amendment preventing state secrets implemented immediately. If there REALLY is something that warrants serious actions by the government (though not the ones they took) then we need to know about it so we can support them.

The ONLY thing that should be classifiable in the country should be troop movements, operational frequencies, etc. Otherwise the government should be 100% accountable to EVERY citizen in the nation for EVERY action it takes. Every member of the government is required to work in accordance with law, the Constitution, as well as the will of the people.
 
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

I also believe this to be true. I do not believe that he had any idea the scope of the things the government does not tell its people.

Which is why everyone in the government should be tried for treason, and a constitutional amendment preventing state secrets implemented immediately. If there REALLY is something that warrants serious actions by the government (though not the ones they took) then we need to know about it so we can support them.

The ONLY thing that should be classifiable in the country should be troop movements, operational frequencies, etc. Otherwise the government should be 100% accountable to EVERY citizen in the nation for EVERY action it takes. Every member of the government is required to work in accordance with law, the Constitution, as well as the will of the people.

Perhaps so, but one would think the president should not disclose certain information on grounds that it would give the enemy an advantage.

It seems to me conventional wisdom that if the enemy knows, for instance, that we are on to one of its operations, then they'll change their tactics, and we lose an opportunity not only to stop them, but to royally screw them.

You can't have privacy without security, and this is a point where the two clash.
 
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

I also believe this to be true. I do not believe that he had any idea the scope of the things the government does not tell its people.

Which is why everyone in the government should be tried for treason, and a constitutional amendment preventing state secrets implemented immediately. If there REALLY is something that warrants serious actions by the government (though not the ones they took) then we need to know about it so we can support them.

The ONLY thing that should be classifiable in the country should be troop movements, operational frequencies, etc. Otherwise the government should be 100% accountable to EVERY citizen in the nation for EVERY action it takes. Every member of the government is required to work in accordance with law, the Constitution, as well as the will of the people.

Wands for President!
 
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

I also believe this to be true. I do not believe that he had any idea the scope of the things the government does not tell its people.

Which is why everyone in the government should be tried for treason, and a constitutional amendment preventing state secrets implemented immediately. If there REALLY is something that warrants serious actions by the government (though not the ones they took) then we need to know about it so we can support them.

The ONLY thing that should be classifiable in the country should be troop movements, operational frequencies, etc. Otherwise the government should be 100% accountable to EVERY citizen in the nation for EVERY action it takes. Every member of the government is required to work in accordance with law, the Constitution, as well as the will of the people.

:thumbsup:
 
Frankly, it's a sad and terrible freaking day if he's really going to withhold the details of those wiretaps. There's operational and analytical secrets that have justifiable state secrets protection, but the full extent of the NSA wiretapping must be known. We've already heard too many former NSA employees reveal horribly unjustified surveillance of U.S. citizens. Let's hope they were isolated and will be locked out forever sometime soon. I don't think we're like the Chinese, who are comfortable with gov't surveillance online for arbitrary reasons.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

+1
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

Yep.

 
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

I also believe this to be true. I do not believe that he had any idea the scope of the things the government does not tell its people.

Which is why everyone in the government should be tried for treason, and a constitutional amendment preventing state secrets implemented immediately. If there REALLY is something that warrants serious actions by the government (though not the ones they took) then we need to know about it so we can support them.

The ONLY thing that should be classifiable in the country should be troop movements, operational frequencies, etc. Otherwise the government should be 100% accountable to EVERY citizen in the nation for EVERY action it takes. Every member of the government is required to work in accordance with law, the Constitution, as well as the will of the people.

Do you know of any country/nation in the world who does this or has done this?

 
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

I also believe this to be true. I do not believe that he had any idea the scope of the things the government does not tell its people.

Which is why everyone in the government should be tried for treason, and a constitutional amendment preventing state secrets implemented immediately. If there REALLY is something that warrants serious actions by the government (though not the ones they took) then we need to know about it so we can support them.

The ONLY thing that should be classifiable in the country should be troop movements, operational frequencies, etc. Otherwise the government should be 100% accountable to EVERY citizen in the nation for EVERY action it takes. Every member of the government is required to work in accordance with law, the Constitution, as well as the will of the people.

Wands for President!


Ok. For starters, If there were laws broken which required everyone in government to be tried for treason, there would be no need for a new amendment.

To end, the will of the people has always been expressed (in elections), as outlined in the constitution, and thanks to the constitution and the people that are elected, we have a legal system that takes care of people who don't work in accordance of the law.

I think Obama is looking within the limits of the law, thus the story.
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

Yeah right. The cops took a rapist into custody, only to go "Holy shit, so that's why you raped her! Our bad, we're right with you buddy!"

Fuck.

That.

Noise.
 
The reason is because Bush did nothing which wasn't going on before. He just expanded things and made them more visible. And the Liberal media made a point of revealing things in ways it never would have done for a Democratic president.

Examples of things which occurred before Bush but Liberals blame on Bush:

-warrantless wiretapping on Americans (all/any American, internet/phone)

-extra-judicial renditions by CIA squads around the world; rendition to countries which torture

-torture of prisoners by US personnel (notice I don't say its legal, just as many cases were not considered legal by Bush [Abu Graib])

-Haliburton and other companies providing support for the US military

-Blackwater providing security for government agencies such as the State Department


 
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Which is why everyone in the government should be tried for treason, and a constitutional amendment preventing state secrets implemented immediately.
😕
 
Yeah, he started off good, but I'm starting to have my doubts as well. ACLU, EFF, etc. have also become increasingly critical of Obama for not delivering on his campaign promise of a more open government.

Then again, this is similar to what he's doing with other matters. For example, he put a halt on Gitmo trials until the new admin has had a chance to review everything. That gives me some hope that there will be positive action on FOIA, it just may take a few months.
 
I may not agree with his reversal, but I can't say I'm surprised.....government has a hard time trying to balance accountability with secrecy.
 
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

I also believe this to be true. I do not believe that he had any idea the scope of the things the government does not tell its people.

I love the X-Files!! seriously though I'm certain Obama had a "Holy Shit!" moment too. And then he smoked a cigarette and then thought about a nice spliff to take the edge off. Can you smoke grass in the royal bathroom?
 
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

Yeah right. The cops took a rapist into custody, only to go "Holy shit, so that's why you raped her! Our bad, we're right with you buddy!"

Fuck.

That.

Noise.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.
 
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

Yeah right. The cops took a rapist into custody, only to go "Holy shit, so that's why you raped her! Our bad, we're right with you buddy!"

Fuck.

That.

Noise.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.
Haha, that's what I was thinking as well. 😛
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

In other words, they finally told him about the Stargate program...
 
Originally posted by: Lanyap
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: herm0016
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

I also believe this to be true. I do not believe that he had any idea the scope of the things the government does not tell its people.

Which is why everyone in the government should be tried for treason, and a constitutional amendment preventing state secrets implemented immediately. If there REALLY is something that warrants serious actions by the government (though not the ones they took) then we need to know about it so we can support them.

The ONLY thing that should be classifiable in the country should be troop movements, operational frequencies, etc. Otherwise the government should be 100% accountable to EVERY citizen in the nation for EVERY action it takes. Every member of the government is required to work in accordance with law, the Constitution, as well as the will of the people.

Do you know of any country/nation in the world who does this or has done this?

Not offhand, but I do know that the US has developed far more 'secrets' over time, especially non-military secrets. So many in fact that our government can now do far more without us knowing than many other 'democratic' nations (one of the reasons our democratic rating has slipped over time).
 
Originally posted by: spidey07
I honestly believe that once he got access to intelligence and information the previous president had Obama had a "holy shit, so that's why Bush was doing what he was doing. I was wrong." moment.

This is the moment! The moment where his eyes are opened.

This would explain a good bit.
 
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