Obama administration considering killing another US citizen without due process

[Nebor]

You like authoritarian governments, eh?

Rights, they are *such* a pain.

I lean towards authoritarianism because it's a realistic response to what I see in the world. Both sides of the aisle want a big, powerful government. They just disagree on who they want it to oppress.

 

[LunarRay]

Well to play devil's advocate, suppose your PM said that someone was a threat to national security and needed to be killed. Would you accept that as automatically true?

My concern is distinctly different than what he's talked about. It's entirely, though regrettably, true that at some point an individual may pose a significant threat which requires drastic action.

If I were to be making this decision I'd ask a lot of question beyond legal justification.

First, has the threat been properly assessed? What is the reliability of information gathered, and has it been analyzed correctly?

Second, is there a reasonable alternative?

Third, are the consequences of a particular action less severe than another approach, or doing nothing at the moment?

All these and more ought to be carefully considered because preemptive action carries a moral implicit of correctness. One cannot simply shoot first then ask questions later. Strike that, it's possible to do so, and that cannot be allowed. That we failed to do so in Iraq with countless lives does not mitigate the same error committed against an individual.

And that brings us to the rub. How can we be sure that such reasoning and effort were properly applied? Is an accusation sufficient grounds for assassination? Who verifies and validates? Are they independent or a rubber stamp? What oversight is there?

I would be much more comfortable if I knew the answers to those questions.

The House and Senate Intelligence Committees are charged with that oversight, as you know. How it is that You don't know what is Secret Ways and Means (or some term like that) and all that enabling stuff rests in trust, I guess.
I suppose when you vote you are placing trust in the hands of who gets elected to insure proper application of force is maintained.

When I see a Congress amok I tend to loose trust on many fronts... But, I think or trust that in this war stuff we play by our own rules. I'm pretty sure we don't always, however.

A few years back we discussed waterboarding... I'm still not sure it is proper to water board to get information - if it actually would produce information - that could save thousands.... I somehow see drone striking an Al Qaeda operative and as collateral damage his children as a reasonable act. All I need to OK that action is a citizen saying he's Al Qaeda... Anything more would simply bring 'with extreme prejudice' into the equation. I think that I think that.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I love my country (and am still serving in the Army.) The constitution is a living document, meant to be modified as necessary to fit the times.

Then modify it, but don't ignore because you want it to be a goldfish.

 

[Nebor]

Then modify it, but don't ignore because you want it to be a goldfish.

I haven't violated any American's constitutional rights.

 

[Texashiker]

But back to the issue. You have a problem with killing people that you're at war with?

Define war.

Where is the difference in Nazi Germany saying Jews are the enemy of the state, rounding them up and killing them, and obama killing his own citizens that have been deemed enemy of the state?

Why does obama get a free pass to kill his own citizens, but stalin, hitler, saddam hussein, pol pot, are commended?

 

[Brainonska511]

Define war.

Where is the difference in Nazi Germany saying Jews are the enemy of the state, rounding them up and killing them, and obama killing his own citizens that have been deemed enemy of the state?

Why does obama get a free pass to kill his own citizens, but stalin, hitler, saddam hussein, pol pot, are commended?

I don't think Stalin, Hitler, and Saddam are commended for their killing of citizens.

I think you're also missing the point. Why is an American citizenship, when based in a foreign country, a free pass to plan and commit attacks against US troops? It's well known that the Taliban and anti-American forces are basing themselves in uncontrolled areas of Pakistan to organize their attacks into Afghanistan.

Then again, if there is definitive proof this guy joined a terrorist organization, why not just revoke his citizenship (joining a foreign, hostile army is one of the reasons your citizenship could be voided)? Then, would it be okay to blow him up?

 

[Texashiker]

I think you're also missing the point. Why is an American citizenship, when based in a foreign country, a free pass to plan and commit attacks against US troops?

Considering the United States military is the invading and occupying force, what gives our government the right to execute freedom fighters?

 

[Capt Caveman]

Define war.

Where is the difference in Nazi Germany saying Jews are the enemy of the state, rounding them up and killing them, and obama killing his own citizens that have been deemed enemy of the state?

Why does obama get a free pass to kill his own citizens, but stalin, hitler, saddam hussein, pol pot, are commended?

What Jewish terrorist group was killing and plotting to kill more Germans?

 

[Texashiker]

What Jewish terrorist group was killing and plotting to kill more Germans?

It was economic terrorism the jews were accused of. The jews were destroying the german economy. At least that is what Hitler told the nation.

Either way and in both cases the government bypassed due process.

Truth does not fear investigation.

If someone has been accused of a crime, bring forth the evidence. The obama administration has not brought forth evidence. When asked, they will fight to keep the evidence secret.

 

[WelshBloke]

Define war.

Where is the difference in Nazi Germany saying Jews are the enemy of the state, rounding them up and killing them, and obama killing his own citizens that have been deemed enemy of the state?

Why does obama get a free pass to kill his own citizens, but stalin, hitler, saddam hussein, pol pot, are commended?

Why do I need to define war in this instance?
The guy has aligned himself with (para)military forces and is involved in action against the US.
It's nothing like the actions of nazi Germany against the Jews. For a start you haven't captured this guy. If you captured him then tortured and killed him, his family and everyone if the same religion then you might have the beginning of a point but that's not the case.

This guy has chosen to go and fight with the enemy.

Considering the United States military is the invading and occupying force, what gives our government the right to execute freedom fighters?

That's a bit of a fatuous argument. If the guy is fighting against you what do you want your forces to do? Ask him to please stop being silly and offer himself up for arrest?
Also execution not found. If he was captured and in your power then you could squeal execution all you wanted but as it is this is just the way people die when they choose to fight in a war.

 

[dainthomas]

It was economic terrorism the jews were accused of. The jews were destroying the german economy. At least that is what Hitler told the nation.

Either way and in both cases the government bypassed due process.

Truth does not fear investigation.

If someone has been accused of a crime, bring forth the evidence. The obama administration has not brought forth evidence. When asked, they will fight to keep the evidence secret.

Probably because it would expose the operatives who collected it. Why do you hate our brave special forces and intelligence workers, and yet you love terrorists?

Furthermore the US doesn't try people in absentia, so that is worthless. The guy will just chill in Yemen (who will never extradite him) the rest of his life while plotting the death of innocent Americans.

 

[Jhhnn]

It was economic terrorism the jews were accused of. The jews were destroying the german economy. At least that is what Hitler told the nation.

Either way and in both cases the government bypassed due process.

Truth does not fear investigation.

If someone has been accused of a crime, bring forth the evidence. The obama administration has not brought forth evidence. When asked, they will fight to keep the evidence secret.

Oh, please. Don't give us the apples vs aardvarks comparison, please.

As I pointed out in post #137, our laws do not apply in foreign countries. Quit pretending that they do. Our laws also apply equally to everybody in US jurisdiction, citizen or foreigner. There is no special legal prosecution status associated with citizenship. Quit pretending that there is.

Get past your false premises.

None of that applies, anyway, because we have no right to use drones the way we do unless we believe that a state of War exists, even if we're the ones creating it. All the normal rules are discarded in War & different rules apply. If we want to wage a War on Terror, then we have to accept the idea that the CinC will apply the rules of War, entirely by our consent. Obviously, that does not include ethnic cleansing or genocide. In War, the citizenship of hostiles matters not in the least. In War, collateral casualties are acceptable, unlike during international police action in peacetime.

I've opposed defining it as War from the beginning, and to using the means of War to act against it. OTOH, those of you who want War need to accept the fact that it will be waged by entirely different rules than civilian justice, regardless of who is the CinC.

The Bush Admin was the first to use drones, iirc, and offered no greater justification than the Obama Admin, who expanded on their efforts for a variety of reasons. It was the Bush Admin who defined it as War in the first place, unleashing a massive propaganda campaign of fear mongering to do so, the effects of which will apparently be with us for a long time. So long as that holds, the definitions & tools of War will be used by any future CinC as well.

Get used to it, and get over yourself & your Obama hate while you're at it.

 

[Texashiker]

As I pointed out in post #137, our laws do not apply in foreign countries.

Per eric holder,

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/10/analysis-eric-holder-exposes-himself-in-sweden/

“The fundamental truth [is] that no matter where you live, who you love, or who you are… every human being is, and must be, free and equal in both dignity and [legal] rights,”

It does not matter where you are, or who you are, you are entitled to certain legal rights.

 

[Moonbeam]

Probably because it would expose the operatives who collected it. Why do you hate our brave special forces and intelligence workers, and yet you love terrorists?

Furthermore the US doesn't try people in absentia, so that is worthless. The guy will just chill in Yemen (who will never extradite him) the rest of his life while plotting the death of innocent Americans.

Texashiker doesn't know what he's doing. His mind and his feelings are disconnected. He would beat a kidnapper silly with a baseball bat to make him reveal the location of his wife while screaming at him, you have the right to remain silent and not self incriminate. His bigotry and devotion to silly opinion blinds him to reality, which will resurface instantly in a pinch.

Just laugh. These airy fairy ivory tower idealistic dreamers always come to earth when some dog bites them in the ass.

 

[Texashiker]

His bigotry and devotion to silly opinion blinds him to reality, which will resurface instantly in a pinch.

You would probably do everything in your power to protect a 2 year old child, but rejoice when a woman kills her unborn child.

So who is the hypocrite?

I value life while you and other liberals rejoice in death.

 

[bshole]

You would probably do everything in your power to protect a 2 year old child, but rejoice when a woman kills her unborn child.

So who is the hypocrite?

I value life while you and other liberals rejoice in death.

I rejoice because that unborn child just got a free ticket to heaven. No suffering, no pain, first conscious thought is in heaven, that's a deal anybody would take if given the chance. If that child had been born, there would be a 95% chance that he would have ended up in hell (an eternal agony of burning flames). If you call yourself Christian, you should be standing in line to support abortion.

What is with your obsession with abortion? Why the hell is it any of your fucking business? Because you say so?

 

[Texashiker]

What is with your obsession with abortion? Why the hell is it any of your fucking business? Because you say so?

Abortion is legalized murder. It different than killing a black slave, mormon, or native american.

Which side of history do you want to be on?

The side that promotes the senseless slaughter of unborn children?

Or the side that promotes love and compassion to all children? And that all is inclusive of the unborn and born.

 

[Brainonska511]

The side that promotes the senseless slaughter of unborn children?

I see no side 'promoting' anything of the sort. But an abortion debate is not on topic for this thread.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Yes, this is disgusting. I do not approve of any drone strikes ever. They may "kill the enemy", but they most likely create more enemies than they kill.

 

[Moonbeam]

You would probably do everything in your power to protect a 2 year old child, but rejoice when a woman kills her unborn child.

So who is the hypocrite?

I value life while you and other liberals rejoice in death.

What you value is bigoted stupidity. I don't rejoice in abortion, you poor deluded idiot, I mourn for the human condition, the fact that nature gave us both consciousness and the inability to exercise it when it comes to our bodies. Women can't consciously chose to keep from getting pregnant under all conditions and this leads to the human tragedy of unwanted pregnancy. You are just an asshole that sees only the life of the fetus and ignores the fate of the woman who does not want to be pregnant. You view women as merely an incubator and not a person with her own free will. You have no business at all in the horrible choices some women have to face. Your so called kindness is most unkind and you don't care. The courts have tried to solve as best they can, an issue that has no good solution. You can curse nature for that, but you can't change it. Stop turning those who see abortion as the only solution that is reasonable between two evils as monsters who love death.

 

[SlickSnake]

Once? Try twice. Dont forget his 16 year old son we killed several week later engaged in the terrorist activity of sitting at a cafe.

Openly engaged in what activities? Badmouthing the United States of America? Good to see we are also walking down the path of squashing the 1st amendment while we are at it.

The idea anybody would support killing an American citizen without trial in a drone strike is disgusting. Your bloodlust for killing terrorists will send this country down a path that will be paved in abuse.

And your comment is over a decade late, and a few trillion dollars short.

 

[Jhhnn]

Per eric holder,

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/10/analysis-eric-holder-exposes-himself-in-sweden/



It does not matter where you are, or who you are, you are entitled to certain legal rights.

So you are opposed to anti terrorist efforts being defined as War so that the rules of War can be applied?

So far, you've justified your maudlin behavior on the basis that the guy is a US citizen- are you now shifting the goalposts?

 

[zinfamous]

Don't like poutine. Don't like Labatt (or Molson) Don't think that the 'War on Terror' is particularly humorous.

then again, it's a funny old world, innit....

those who can't find humor in the follies or even terrors that humans commit, strike me as droll, small-minded individuals.
:\

The thing is, we're probably on the same "side," you and I, for most of this, but I have managed to shuffle off my righteous indignation and often choose a more pragmatic approach to the issues that disturb me.

 

[Texashiker]

So far, you've justified your maudlin behavior on the basis that the guy is a US citizen- are you now shifting the goalposts?

I support everyones right to life, regardless of location, sex, race, religion or nationality.

As a US citizen our rights are protected.

Eric Holder confirmed and expanded those rights to everyone, and not just US citizens. That is unless holder was lying. Do you think he was lying?

You are just an asshole that sees only the life of the fetus and ignores the fate of the woman who does not want to be pregnant.

Yes, I am an asshole.

The woman made her choice when she spread her legs. Rape and incest are a different situation.

Just as a man made his choice when he deposited his sperm, the woman made we choice when she received the mans sperm.

 

[Meghan54]

So by your way of thinking, we should nuke North Korea right off the map. They have threatened to do the same to us, they have nuclear weapons, why should we risk American lives waiting for them to strike?

Of course Iran will have to be next.

Russia talked shit, gonna have to take care of them.

Well shit...now the rest of the world is threatening us. Time to launch some more missiles!

Well, isn't that exactly what Bush explicitly stated when he introduced the concept that America has the "right" to pre-emptively strike any nation or persons that seek to do America harm, and this included his "Axis of Evil" list of countries, which N. Korea and Iran were explicitly part of? Guess if it was good enough for Bush to have that policy, it's good enough for Obama.