Obama Admin Unveils Most Expensive EPA (Air) Rules: $10 Billion Cost

[cybrsage]

What about all the blue collar coal miners who get laid off because of the reduced coal demand?

 

[cybrsage]

Somewhat related, as the issue of new nuclear reactors is being discussed. From arstechnica:

US approves new nuclear reactor design

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has given a thumbs-up to what may be the first new reactor build in the US in decades

I like what I have seen of it so far. It uses a lot of off the shelf technology, just in a modernized way to make it smaller and safer. Less valves is a particularly good thing, as they are major failure points.

Pressurized water reactors do need to be vented from time to time, I wonder how they contain the gasses released from that. I wish the site had a lot more details about its design.

Still, looks very promising!

 

[Ausm]

I bet that 80 somthing yrs old lady freezing in her trailer already on fixed income will be happy about this.

You can guarantee she wouldn't get any assistance in a Red State.

😉

 

[Siddhartha]

What is your answer to that question?

I vote for the cleanest environment possible. How to pay for it? The US should avoid the next couple of trillion dollar war(s) over some made up threat, for example WMD, and use the money, for health care, education, and clean up its enviroment.

 

[michal1980]

The question is: How many pollution caused cases of cancer, birth defects, miscarriages,etc do you consider to be acceptable?

how many can the say will be DIRECTLY saved by these regulations?

 

[michal1980]

I vote for the cleanest environment possible. How to pay for it? The US should avoid the next couple of trillion dollar war(s) over some made up threat, for example WMD, and use the money, for health care, education, and clean up its enviroment.

We stop the war we still have a defict.

But I know liberals would be stupid enough to spend a trillion dollars to possibly save one life from a spec of dust.

 

[bfdd]

Anyone who hasn't worked in the energy industry should really just shut the fuck up. You have no idea how dangerous the industry is, but you want to bitch and moan about health standards etc etc. I've almost been crushed, blown up, knocked off a turbine platform, gassed, etc and I'd do it again. 99.999% of the people who bitch about worker safety standards and all these environmental bullshit have NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM. They just are so fucking scared for their own lives they have to play nanny for everyone else.

Polluting is bad, but there is a point where it isn't cost effective. If 100 people die, oh well, that sucks, but you know what? We need energy to push forward and if it wasn't for the fucking hippies pushing anti-nuke years ago we wouldn't even be debating coal plants in the USA right now. I seriously hate reading these fucking threads because I'm so sick of the pussies who can't accept that death happens and think we need to coddle and carry every living soul.

 

[shira]

Anyone who hasn't worked in the energy industry should really just shut the fuck up. You have no idea how dangerous the industry is, but you want to bitch and moan about health standards etc etc. I've almost been crushed, blown up, knocked off a turbine platform, gassed, etc and I'd do it again. 99.999% of the people who bitch about worker safety standards and all these environmental bullshit have NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM. They just are so fucking scared for their own lives they have to play nanny for everyone else.

Polluting is bad, but there is a point where it isn't cost effective. If 100 people die, oh well, that sucks, but you know what? We need energy to push forward and if it wasn't for the fucking hippies pushing anti-nuke years ago we wouldn't even be debating coal plants in the USA right now. I seriously hate reading these fucking threads because I'm so sick of the pussies who can't accept that death happens and think we need to coddle and carry every living soul.

And somehow you know that THIS is the point where it isn't cost effective. Somehow, you know it's only 100 lives lost. Somehow, you know that it isn't 10,000,000 lives shortened. Somehow, you know that it isn't 1,000,000 more cases of emphysema. Somehow, you know that all of the other health issues this change would mitigate don't justify $10 billion.

You're argument is totally lame.

 

[sandorski]

Anyone who hasn't worked in the energy industry should really just shut the fuck up. You have no idea how dangerous the industry is, but you want to bitch and moan about health standards etc etc. I've almost been crushed, blown up, knocked off a turbine platform, gassed, etc and I'd do it again. 99.999% of the people who bitch about worker safety standards and all these environmental bullshit have NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM. They just are so fucking scared for their own lives they have to play nanny for everyone else.

Polluting is bad, but there is a point where it isn't cost effective. If 100 people die, oh well, that sucks, but you know what? We need energy to push forward and if it wasn't for the fucking hippies pushing anti-nuke years ago we wouldn't even be debating coal plants in the USA right now. I seriously hate reading these fucking threads because I'm so sick of the pussies who can't accept that death happens and think we need to coddle and carry every living soul.

U mad?

 

[Jhhnn]

how many can the say will be DIRECTLY saved by these regulations?

Estimates vary, obviously, because we don't have the ability to live alternate scenarios or a time machine to go back for a do-over.

I suspect that we'll see long term savings in terms of efficiency, too-

http://www.grist.org/fossil-fuels/2...unced-today-are-a-bona-fide-big-deal?ref=gnep

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Granted this will help but the US will continue to have mercury and other contaminates affect the population until Asia takes the same steps.

Made in China: Our Toxic, Imported Air Pollution

Mercury, sulfates, ozone, black carbon, flu-laced desert dust. Even as America
tightens emission standards, the fast-growing economies of Asia
are filling the air with hazardous components that circumnavigate the globe.

http://discovermagazine.com/2011/apr/18-made-in-china-our-toxic-imported-air-pollution

 

[Jhhnn]

Granted this will help but the US will continue to have mercury and other contaminates affect the population until Asia takes the same steps.



http://discovermagazine.com/2011/apr/18-made-in-china-our-toxic-imported-air-pollution

Effects obviously diminish greatly over distance, and others' actions are no excuse for bad behavior on our part.

 

[TridenT]

Oh how crazy. Who in Gods name would want clean air anyway...?
And if Mercury levels are greatly reduced, people just might start giving birth to intelligent children. And we surely wouldn't want THAT!
What is this country coming too?
Clean air, smart kids, WTF!!!
Just more Obama communism plain and simple...

lol :thumbsup:

 

[Darwin333]

I vote for the cleanest environment possible. How to pay for it? The US should avoid the next couple of trillion dollar war(s) over some made up threat, for example WMD, and use the money, for health care, education, and clean up its enviroment.

So you are in favor of completely eliminating coal produced electricity and the federal government paying for the new power plants?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Effects obviously diminish greatly over distance, and others' actions are no excuse for bad behavior on our part.

Never said the US shouldn't move forward to improve the air quality though maybe these steps will do more to improve eastern Europe's air quality than the US. Don't be surprised when the USA is still battling mercury and other pollution related issues that emanate from Asia.

 

[fskimospy]

Never said the US shouldn't move forward to improve the air quality though maybe these steps will do more to improve eastern Europe's air quality than the US. Don't be surprised when the USA is still battling mercury and other pollution related issues that emanate from Asia.

If you are going to make such an extraordinary claim that these rules will improve air quality more around 3-4,000 miles away than they will at the point of production you're going to need to provide some evidence for that.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

If you are going to make such an extraordinary claim that these rules will improve air quality more around 3-4,000 miles away than they will at the point of production you're going to need to provide some evidence for that.

Of course you didn't bother to read the link. Guess Discovermagazine is too right wing.

http://discovermagazine.com/2011/apr/18-made-in-china-our-toxic-imported-air-pollution

 

[bfdd]

U mad?

i'm never mad, i think the last time i got mad was like... 4 years ago? maybe 5.

 

[Jhhnn]

Never said the US shouldn't move forward to improve the air quality though maybe these steps will do more to improve eastern Europe's air quality than the US. Don't be surprised when the USA is still battling mercury and other pollution related issues that emanate from Asia.

If you are going to make such an extraordinary claim that these rules will improve air quality more around 3-4,000 miles away than they will at the point of production you're going to need to provide some evidence for that.

Of course you didn't bother to read the link. Guess Discovermagazine is too right wing.

http://discovermagazine.com/2011/apr/18-made-in-china-our-toxic-imported-air-pollution

I think you're trying to divert attention from the localized effects of old coal fired power plants onto the issue of Chinese mercury pollution, the effects of which are much more diffuse for the ROTW.

Which is not to defend the Chinese at all, but rather to point out that localized effect from coal fired plants is quite strong, much stronger than the diffuse effects from the other side of the Pacific. Beijing's air is a lot dirtier there than after it crosses the ocean.

We have an obligation to ourselves to mitigate the local effects- it's in our own self interest to do so. As your linked article points out, so do the Chinese, and their govt's tolerance of environmental groups indicates their willingness to proceed in that direction.

Had we been monitoring air quality 100 years ago, it would have been the US & Europe creating the problem, and it's taken a very long time for us to arrive at the new regs that naysayers wail about. Given the accelerating rate of technological change, the Chinese may be able to match our efforts in a considerably shorter timeframe.

A great deal of the outcry about the new regs, I suspect, is pure astroturfing on the part of interests whose ability to privatize profits while socializing losses will be diminished in the process.

 

[fskimospy]

Of course you didn't bother to read the link. Guess Discovermagazine is too right wing.

http://discovermagazine.com/2011/apr/18-made-in-china-our-toxic-imported-air-pollution

I did read it, did you? Hint: it doesn't support your contention that the effects from this will be felt more 4,000 miles away than in the immediate area.

 

[cybrsage]

i'm never mad, i think the last time i got mad was like... 4 years ago? maybe 5.

That is not true. When you hit your thumb with a hammer twice in a row, you threw down the hammer and cursed up a storm. You appeared to be quite mad. 🙂


(yes, I am stalking you to know this)

 

[bfdd]

That is not true. When you hit your thumb with a hammer twice in a row, you threw down the hammer and cursed up a storm. You appeared to be quite mad. 🙂


(yes, I am stalking you to know this)

Actually if you knew me you'd know I'd just laugh. I think pretty much everything is funny and worth a laugh.

 

[cybrsage]

Actually if you knew me you'd know I'd just laugh. I think pretty much everything is funny and worth a laugh.

You did laugh, but it was after you got mad. You laughed because getting mad makes you happy. I saw it all, recorded it too, but my betamax player ate the tape. I am going to be writing Sony a letter about it, you bet I will!

 

[bfdd]

You did laugh, but it was after you got mad. You laughed because getting mad makes you happy. I saw it all, recorded it too, but my betamax player ate the tape. I am going to be writing Sony a letter about it, you bet I will!

damnit! betamax my nemesis

 

[werepossum]

I'd be interested in knowing how many (as a percentage) of coal-burning plants will be affected. Big difference between adding incremental cost to almost every coal-burning plant and improving a relatively small percentage of plants that should have been updated long ago, albeit for a hefty price tag.

My initial reaction is that $10 billion is a lot of money, but honestly it's a rounding error in the federal government and probably not a lot more in our total power bill.