Obama a Marxist......what is going on in this interview?

[smashp]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Genx87


His tax plan for the middle class isnt just rolling back taxes for the wealthy. It gives refundable tax credits to households under 250K in income. Refundable means if I make 18K a year and effectively pay 0 in income tax I get a check for 500 bucks from the govt.

I keep hearing this... How can anyone make 18k per year and pay no taxes? When I was young and just starting out I made 10, 12, 15k per year the first 3 years and I paid a couple thousand in taxes, most of it federal.

Serious question: Who are these people that reportedly pay zero tax and where is the proof that they dont pay? I mean I hear it, but see nothing that proves its real.

My sister and her husband don't pay any income tax. they actually get more money back from filing federal tax returns than they paid in federal income taxes.
4 kids, she doesn't work, he works as a church camp director(making jack squat).

Know why I know? I've done their taxes... I do it for free but they have to sit through my lecture on how it's wrong they get more than they pay in. I am a big believer in "NET ZERO" for income taxes.

How much Payroll taxes did they pay

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: OrByte
I think your premise is flawed. I don't see people getting hooked on a $500 tax refund at the end of the year. And I don't see that being as some sort of incentive for middle class workers to not want to continue to earn higher salaries.

I don't see this as a govt handout at all.

How about people hooked on a welfare check?
Hooked on EBT (Food stamps)?
Hooked on low income government housing?


Have you ever worked in a low income area? The system we have no traps many people in it. It is the whole cycle of poverty and it seems that Obama wants to extend it through well meaning, but ineffective government programs.

We already had meaningful welfare reform in this country in the 90's. The system is way better than what it was. I dont think eliminating welfare/EBT/low income housing is ever going to be a real option.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: eskimospy

I'm sorry, but the war on poverty has been a fantastic success. The poverty rate now is approximately half of what it was when it started, and the standard of living that is determined to be 'in poverty' is hugely higher than it was in the 60's. Since poverty is a relative measure, there will always be people we consider in poverty. The question is the number and the severity, and in both situations things are much, much better.

That number was falling quickly before the legislation was even enacted. And you are right poverty is a relative thing. However I would argue private enterprise which brought the price of goods down had more to do with advancements in the standards of living for the poor than a govt handout. As well a stronger economy will do more for the poor than govt ever will by employing more of them.

While trends are obviously based on a whole bunch of factors, the historical poverty rate for the US is well over 20%, and we have been well under that (a minimum of 25-30% lower regardless of recession) since the enactment of the war on poverty.

We have had private enterprise as the defining characteristic of our country since its inception, poverty remained high through most of it. Sure private enterprise has a huge amount to do with how wealthy we are today, but it's not everything and this program appears to have been pretty successful.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Genx87


His tax plan for the middle class isnt just rolling back taxes for the wealthy. It gives refundable tax credits to households under 250K in income. Refundable means if I make 18K a year and effectively pay 0 in income tax I get a check for 500 bucks from the govt.

I keep hearing this... How can anyone make 18k per year and pay no taxes? When I was young and just starting out I made 10, 12, 15k per year the first 3 years and I paid a couple thousand in taxes, most of it federal.

Serious question: Who are these people that reportedly pay zero tax and where is the proof that they dont pay? I mean I hear it, but see nothing that proves its real.

My sister and her husband don't pay any income tax. they actually get more money back from filing federal tax returns than they paid in federal income taxes.
4 kids, she doesn't work, he works as a church camp director(making jack squat).

Know why I know? I've done their taxes... I do it for free but they have to sit through my lecture on how it's wrong they get more than they pay in. I am a big believer in "NET ZERO" for income taxes.

How much Payroll taxes did they pay

And what does that have to do with "federal income" taxes? Payroll taxes pay for federal entitlement programs such as SS and Medicare. And are matched by the employer. Anytime you want to eliminate those programs it will free the poor from having to pay them as well.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: OrByte
I think your premise is flawed. I don't see people getting hooked on a $500 tax refund at the end of the year. And I don't see that being as some sort of incentive for middle class workers to not want to continue to earn higher salaries.

I don't see this as a govt handout at all.

How about people hooked on a welfare check?
Hooked on EBT (Food stamps)?
Hooked on low income government housing?


Have you ever worked in a low income area? The system we have no traps many people in it. It is the whole cycle of poverty and it seems that Obama wants to extend it through well meaning, but ineffective government programs.

you are talking about low income no income impoverished people.

I was talking to middle-class people middle wage earners.

apples v oranges.

I grew up in low income.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Genx87


His tax plan for the middle class isnt just rolling back taxes for the wealthy. It gives refundable tax credits to households under 250K in income. Refundable means if I make 18K a year and effectively pay 0 in income tax I get a check for 500 bucks from the govt.

I keep hearing this... How can anyone make 18k per year and pay no taxes? When I was young and just starting out I made 10, 12, 15k per year the first 3 years and I paid a couple thousand in taxes, most of it federal.

Serious question: Who are these people that reportedly pay zero tax and where is the proof that they dont pay? I mean I hear it, but see nothing that proves its real.

My sister and her husband don't pay any income tax. they actually get more money back from filing federal tax returns than they paid in federal income taxes.
4 kids, she doesn't work, he works as a church camp director(making jack squat).

Know why I know? I've done their taxes... I do it for free but they have to sit through my lecture on how it's wrong they get more than they pay in. I am a big believer in "NET ZERO" for income taxes.

How much Payroll taxes did they pay

Not a whole lot considering they have 4 kids and make jack squat. But it doesn't matter anyway since it is not income taxes.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Genx87


His tax plan for the middle class isnt just rolling back taxes for the wealthy. It gives refundable tax credits to households under 250K in income. Refundable means if I make 18K a year and effectively pay 0 in income tax I get a check for 500 bucks from the govt.

I keep hearing this... How can anyone make 18k per year and pay no taxes? When I was young and just starting out I made 10, 12, 15k per year the first 3 years and I paid a couple thousand in taxes, most of it federal.

Serious question: Who are these people that reportedly pay zero tax and where is the proof that they dont pay? I mean I hear it, but see nothing that proves its real.

Using the modern progressive tax system, there is a very real financial threshold -- below which a person will get back 100% of their federal income taxes in the form of a return.

I've seen reports that indicate that as much as 40% of this nation's citizens do not pay any Federal income taxes...

 

[boomerang]

I personally find Obama's words at face value worrisome. And that's all we can really do is take them at face value. Anyone's opinion of what he said is just that - opinion.

Here's a quote from Nancy Pelosi two years ago:

"We democrats are going to address this issue after the election when we take control of the congress. We will return to the 60% to 80% tax rates on the rich and we will be able to take at least 30% of all current lower Federal Income Tax taxpayers off the roles and increase government income substantially. We need to work toward the goal of equalizing income in our country and at the same time limiting the amount the rich can invest."

She was soundly lambasted after the speech that contained this quote. However, these are her thoughts, her agenda so to speak.

These statements, these thoughts are what scare the pants off people who don't support Obama. You can poo-poo this, you can dismiss it in any fashion you want, but this is the real nitty gritty. For those who don't support the man, this is as real as it gets.

All of you work for someone who's richer than you. Whether you want to admit it, whether you like it or don't like it, your livelihood is dependent on some rich MF. Who's going to define who's rich and who's poor when the Obama's and Nancy Pelosi's start redistributing wealth? You'd like to think you'll fall into the poor whose standard of living will be raised or the middle of the road category that will be unaffected. Maybe you will, but maybe you won't. Make sure you'll be happy being classified as the rich.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Genx87


His tax plan for the middle class isnt just rolling back taxes for the wealthy. It gives refundable tax credits to households under 250K in income. Refundable means if I make 18K a year and effectively pay 0 in income tax I get a check for 500 bucks from the govt.

I keep hearing this... How can anyone make 18k per year and pay no taxes? When I was young and just starting out I made 10, 12, 15k per year the first 3 years and I paid a couple thousand in taxes, most of it federal.

Serious question: Who are these people that reportedly pay zero tax and where is the proof that they dont pay? I mean I hear it, but see nothing that proves its real.

Using the modern progressive tax system, there is a very real financial threshold -- below which a person will get back 100% of their federal income taxes in the form of a return.

I've seen reports that indicate that as much as 40% of this nation's citizens do not pay any Federal income taxes...

That doesn't surprise me. But there is something important to remember :

People in those types of income brackets of the bottom 40% pretty much spend every dime they make. When they spend that money, it goes into corporate and small business pockets, with a decent % going to local, state, and federal gov't in the form of taxes anyway.

So just because it's not taxed so much directly out of their paycheck doesn't mean they're not paying their share. It just comes out in different stages.

This is also a good reason (stated earlier in the thread), that tax credits such as the EITC are not a zero-sum item either. Because they are basically living paycheck to paycheck, that investment is recirculated into the general economy very quickly.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Genx87


His tax plan for the middle class isnt just rolling back taxes for the wealthy. It gives refundable tax credits to households under 250K in income. Refundable means if I make 18K a year and effectively pay 0 in income tax I get a check for 500 bucks from the govt.

I keep hearing this... How can anyone make 18k per year and pay no taxes? When I was young and just starting out I made 10, 12, 15k per year the first 3 years and I paid a couple thousand in taxes, most of it federal.

Serious question: Who are these people that reportedly pay zero tax and where is the proof that they dont pay? I mean I hear it, but see nothing that proves its real.

My sister and her husband don't pay any income tax. they actually get more money back from filing federal tax returns than they paid in federal income taxes.
4 kids, she doesn't work, he works as a church camp director(making jack squat).

Know why I know? I've done their taxes... I do it for free but they have to sit through my lecture on how it's wrong they get more than they pay in. I am a big believer in "NET ZERO" for income taxes.

How much Payroll taxes did they pay

And what does that have to do with "federal income" taxes? Payroll taxes pay for federal entitlement programs such as SS, Medicare, and unemployment insurance. And are matched by the employer. Anytime you want to eliminate those programs it will free the poor from having to pay them as well.

Taxes are Fucking Taxes and if you want to "Group" them separately than the Government need to keep their damn hands off of SS and medicare taxes since they are for specific purposes.

As Long as the Fed keeps using the revenue from SS and medicare taxes and combining it into the common Fund for Government spending, your argument is 100% BS.

So Please stop trying this "Pay no Taxes" garbage when we all know that Wage earners pay the government a portion of their meager pay

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: boomerang
I personally find Obama's words at face value worrisome. And that's all we can really do is take them at face value. Anyone's opinion of what he said is just that - opinion.

Here's a quote from Nancy Pelosi two years ago:

"We democrats are going to address this issue after the election when we take control of the congress. We will return to the 60% to 80% tax rates on the rich and we will be able to take at least 30% of all current lower Federal Income Tax taxpayers off the roles and increase government income substantially. We need to work toward the goal of equalizing income in our country and at the same time limiting the amount the rich can invest."

She was soundly lambasted after the speech that contained this quote. However, these are her thoughts, her agenda so to speak.

These statements, these thoughts are what scare the pants off people who don't support Obama. You can poo-poo this, you can dismiss it in any fashion you want, but this is the real nitty gritty. For those who don't support the man, this is as real as it gets.

All of you work for someone who's richer than you. Whether you want to admit it, whether you like it or don't like it, your livelihood is dependent on some rich MF. Who's going to define who's rich and who's poor when the Obama's and Nancy Pelosi's start redistributing wealth? You'd like to think you'll fall into the poor whose standard of living will be raised or the middle of the road category that will be unaffected. Maybe you will, but maybe you won't. Make sure you'll be happy being classified as the rich.

Two problems there, one I see frequently, the other not so much. First of all, our lives our not dependent on "some rich MF". This is the self-abasing bullshit that I see from the right constantly. You are not your job is not a charity out of the kindness of your employer's heart, you are hired because he/she believes that you will provide more value to his company through your work than he will have to pay you. If you do provide this value than someone will want to pay you for your services, it's an even trade. If you want to say that you are dependent on them, then they are dependent on you just as much, so why would they be more deserving of money than you?

Second, you took an isolated Obama quote about a unique social injustice and tried to fold it into a larger argument about how Obama and co. have some sort of vast new wealth redistribution planned when there is zero evidence for such.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Genx87


His tax plan for the middle class isnt just rolling back taxes for the wealthy. It gives refundable tax credits to households under 250K in income. Refundable means if I make 18K a year and effectively pay 0 in income tax I get a check for 500 bucks from the govt.

I keep hearing this... How can anyone make 18k per year and pay no taxes? When I was young and just starting out I made 10, 12, 15k per year the first 3 years and I paid a couple thousand in taxes, most of it federal.

Serious question: Who are these people that reportedly pay zero tax and where is the proof that they dont pay? I mean I hear it, but see nothing that proves its real.

My sister and her husband don't pay any income tax. they actually get more money back from filing federal tax returns than they paid in federal income taxes.
4 kids, she doesn't work, he works as a church camp director(making jack squat).

Know why I know? I've done their taxes... I do it for free but they have to sit through my lecture on how it's wrong they get more than they pay in. I am a big believer in "NET ZERO" for income taxes.

How much Payroll taxes did they pay

And what does that have to do with "federal income" taxes? Payroll taxes pay for federal entitlement programs such as SS, Medicare, and unemployment insurance. And are matched by the employer. Anytime you want to eliminate those programs it will free the poor from having to pay them as well.

Taxes are Fucking Taxes and if you want to "Group" them separately than the Government need to keep their damn hands off of SS and medicare taxes since they are for specific purposes.

As Long as the Fed keeps using the revenue from SS and medicare taxes and combining it into the common Fund for Government spending, your argument is 100% BS.

So Please stop trying this "Pay no Taxes" garbage when we all know that Wage earners pay the government a portion of their meager pay

That argument is not BS. If anything, the poor should make out on payroll taxes as they are matched by their employer. Meaning the employee recieves a full benefit when they are paying half the cost. Because the govt mismanges those funds is irrelevant to this dicussion and another example of govt screwing up a good thing. Get on your congress persons ass to fix it.

Federal income taxes which is what everbody talks about is not paid by a good % of income earners in this country.

Even if you add in the FICA taxes of SS and Medicare a person making 18K a year pays about 1350 in taxes or about 7.5%. Very low portion of their income.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
About time you open your eyes.

Look at who the guy pals around with.
Ignore the fact that Ayers was a terrorist and look at his other views. Look at the work ACORN does etc etc.

Obama wins and it is the return of big government.

What the hell did the repubs do? Shrink government? You want to know how many new "offices" were created during the last 8 years?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Originally posted by: AnthroAndStargate
OK you guys trashing this are all hypocrites. McCain has said equally insane shit and I dont hold him to his words in 2001 (as an Obama supporter).

If he had words to contradict what was said sense then that would be fine, he would have changed his stance on the issue.

Plus he is talking about a HISTORICAL issue of the 40 acres and a mule - he is not saying that your money is going to go to modern day reparations. He is talking about this from a legal perspective when he is a lawyer and how it became too legalistic. He was merely saying that the unfortunate incident left historically disenfranchised people in the dust with no economic means to start their own businesses and move into the American middle class.

He's saying that AND he's saying that he wants to remedy the situation.

But I wouldn't expect people to care.. one of the comments says Barack "Karl Marx" Obama and another says "Where is Lee Harvey Oswald when you need him". Disgusting.

I agree, it has no place in civil discourse.

And I don't see that being as some sort of incentive for middle class workers to not want to continue to earn higher salaries.

true

I don't see this as a govt handout at all.

false; unless that means something other than "being given something you didn't earn, from the government"

Originally posted by: Arkaign

But one thing to remember : those people with jobs but little income are almost certainly living paycheck to paycheck. That extra $500 will... be recirculated in the economy quickly.

But increasing demand doesn't help create more wealth, only devalue our money

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
Topic Title: Obama a Marxist......what is going on in this interview?

What on god's green earth is Obama talking about here? Redistributing wealth to blacks during the Civil Rights movement is something we should have done? Wow....I don't know what to say about this.

Say the last 8 years has been a disaster under Republican rule, how much worse can Obama be?

Was that so hard?

We have seen what happens when the check/balances between the executive and legislative branches are removed.
Any single party controlling both will lead to unchecked abuse of public oversight (lack of).

QFT

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Obama wins and it is the return of big government.

Return? :roll:

Continuation.

 

[HomerJS]

One thing I notice people hear what they want to hear not what was said.

First thing the entire interview has to be listened to not just interpreted snippets.

Now just going by the snippets, the only time the phrase ?redistribution of wealth? was used was to show the Warren court was not as radical as people said because they did not venture into ROW. That phrase was never used again.

He said one of the failures of the civil rights movements was the inability to build coalitions on the ground that can effect ?redistributive change?. The example cited was rulings for funding school districts that would cost money don?t work well.

He said three people could put together legal justifications for ?redistributive change? in the courts but never said he would do it. BTW ? you could put together legal justifications for a lot of things you wouldn?t do. That was speaking from a lawyers point of view.

Bottom line at no time did he advocate ROW via courts or the legislature. I never heard we are going to take whiteys money and give it to black people.

 

[ScottMac]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
Topic Title: Obama a Marxist......what is going on in this interview?

What on god's green earth is Obama talking about here? Redistributing wealth to blacks during the Civil Rights movement is something we should have done? Wow....I don't know what to say about this.

Say the last 8 years has been a disaster under Republican rule, how much worse can Obama be?

Was that so hard?

Dave, I'm truly surprised to hear you say that.

Virtually any situation can get worse. Anything that expands government involvement in day-to-day activities of the citizens will, with extremely rare exception, be worse or get worse, to the point of total dysfunction.

I don't care who's driving the bus, adding bureaucracy is never a good solution.

 

[thirtythree]

On a side note, I've lost a lot of respect for drudgereport.com during this election. Their recent "news" headlines:

McCain slams Obama on 'redistributive change'...

2001 OBAMA: TRAGEDY THAT 'REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH' NOT PURSUED BY SUPREME COURT

THE OBAMA VAULTS: Constitution 'reflected fundamental flaw of this country that continues to this day'...

'I'm not interested in the suburbs. The suburbs bore me'...

BIDEN GRILLED BY NEWS ANCHOR: IS OBAMA MARXIST?

YOU'RE PUNISHED: OBAMA CAMPAIGN CUTS OFF TV STATION...

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Obama wins and it is the return of big government.

Return? :roll:

Continuation.

The problem isn't big government, it's shitty government, the kind the Neanderthal party has given us since Carter. We have had decades of being governed by our ass rather than with brains. You are ideologically committed to a ideal that removes you from the real.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: boomerang
I personally find Obama's words at face value worrisome. And that's all we can really do is take them at face value. Anyone's opinion of what he said is just that - opinion.

Here's a quote from Nancy Pelosi two years ago:

"We democrats are going to address this issue after the election when we take control of the congress. We will return to the 60% to 80% tax rates on the rich and we will be able to take at least 30% of all current lower Federal Income Tax taxpayers off the roles and increase government income substantially. We need to work toward the goal of equalizing income in our country and at the same time limiting the amount the rich can invest."

She was soundly lambasted after the speech that contained this quote. However, these are her thoughts, her agenda so to speak.

These statements, these thoughts are what scare the pants off people who don't support Obama. You can poo-poo this, you can dismiss it in any fashion you want, but this is the real nitty gritty. For those who don't support the man, this is as real as it gets.

All of you work for someone who's richer than you. Whether you want to admit it, whether you like it or don't like it, your livelihood is dependent on some rich MF. Who's going to define who's rich and who's poor when the Obama's and Nancy Pelosi's start redistributing wealth? You'd like to think you'll fall into the poor whose standard of living will be raised or the middle of the road category that will be unaffected. Maybe you will, but maybe you won't. Make sure you'll be happy being classified as the rich.

Two problems there, one I see frequently, the other not so much. First of all, our lives our not dependent on "some rich MF". This is the self-abasing bullshit that I see from the right constantly. You are not your job is not a charity out of the kindness of your employer's heart, you are hired because he/she believes that you will provide more value to his company through your work than he will have to pay you. If you do provide this value than someone will want to pay you for your services, it's an even trade. If you want to say that you are dependent on them, then they are dependent on you just as much, so why would they be more deserving of money than you?

Second, you took an isolated Obama quote about a unique social injustice and tried to fold it into a larger argument about how Obama and co. have some sort of vast new wealth redistribution planned when there is zero evidence for such.

So your employer, the individual that commited their money, their energy, put their ideas and visions into motion, those that took the risks and built a company up to the point where they needed additional help and hired you, should share equally with you, an employee? I am absolutely, totally dumbfounded to read that. I see no sense in my putting forth any more thoughts in this regard. All my words are going to be construed as pointless by you.

I must say though, that there is no Obama quote anywhere in my post.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

At face value it is very hard to see what Obama is trying to say here. This is coming from an ardent Obama supporter.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Originally posted by: HomerJS
One thing I notice people hear what they want to hear not what was said.

First thing the entire interview has to be listened to not just interpreted snippets.

Now just going by the snippets, the only time the phrase ?redistribution of wealth? was used was to show the Warren court was not as radical as people said because they did not venture into ROW. That phrase was never used again.

Yes, but the general tone of the conversation was that of taking as implied that ROW is not only a good thing, but essential to 'social justice'

He said three people could put together legal justifications for ?redistributive change? in the courts but never said he would do it. BTW ? you could put together legal justifications for a lot of things you wouldn?t do. That was speaking from a lawyers point of view.

What you're missing here is that he said "the tree of us", this is because the three people on the air at that moment believed wholeheartedly in ROW. This is clear from the conversation. He said they could come up with a justification because he feels it is justified, he was simply pointing out that the court isn't the way to get the job done.

Bottom line at no time did he advocate ROW via courts or the legislature. I never heard we are going to take whiteys money and give it to black people.

It's clear that the basic premise of the conversation is Obama believes that ROW is necessary to social justice and Mr. Obama has been fighting for social justice his entire life.

I regret voting against McCain now.

 

[bdude]

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
At face value it is very hard to see what Obama is trying to say here. This is coming from an ardent Obama supporter.

That's bc you didn't listen to the entire interview.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Obama wins and it is the return of big government.

Return? :roll:

Continuation.

The problem isn't big government, it's shitty government, the kind the Neanderthal party has given us since Carter. We have had decades of being governed by our ass rather than with brains. You are ideologically committed to a ideal that removes you from the real.

Ah, the old fallacy that big government is ok as long as politicians are good and have some integrity.

Thousands of years of history show the later won't happen. And you think I live in fantasyland?

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
At face value it is very hard to see what Obama is trying to say here. This is coming from an ardent Obama supporter.

Perhaps that is because you don't want to hear what he is saying.

BTW why are you voting for Obama?