O, Pakistan

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucrr/2...WogB4TeC82YRl.h1.QWxIF

O, PAKISTAN! By Richard Reeves
Mon Oct 22, 9:50 AM ET

NEW YORK -- I cried for Pakistan on Thursday night, not for the first time. And I'm sure not for the last.

I have lived there, worked there, gone back again and again to see friends, many of them former classmates of my wife's at Columbia University's School of International Public Affairs. It is, for me, a lovely and lively place, except that it is ever on the verge of blowing up itself or its neighbors or more.

It is the most dangerous place in the world. It does not change much, and when it does, it is usually for the worst. We all saw that last Thursday -- and things will get worse.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is dysfunctional, and it has been most of the time since its bloody birth on New Year's Day in 1947, when the British left colonial India divided into three parts, separate and unequal. There was what we now call India. As they raced for the ships home, the Brits of the Raj decided without too much thought to create two inherently unstable Muslim nations more than a thousand miles apart on either side of the new Hindu-dominated India, West Pakistan and East Pakistan. All the Pakistanis may have been Muslims, but they were different people speaking different languages.

West Pakistan became what we now call Pakistan, a country of 165 million people, most of them poor and ignorant, living in a different century from the rest of us and, often, each other. East Pakistan is now Bangladesh, after revolting in 1971, with help from India, against oppressive rule from West Pakistan.

This is how Pakistan works:

It is a military dictatorship, as it has been for most of its 60-year history. The reason for that is simple: The military is the only functioning institution in the country, controlling its own cantonments (or towns), roads and vehicles, corporations, schools and hospitals -- to say nothing of guns and a few atomic bombs.

To rule, the soldiers are required to provide reasonable security for the country's few and highly educated elites and allow ignorant mullahs with their Quranic law and madrassas to control "the masses." And in some of those rural areas, tribal areas, the central government has little or no power. (Osama bin Laden is believed to be hiding and plotting in those tribal areas, hard places that make the old Wild West seem like Paris.)

Everybody is in on it when it suits their purposes. The United States poured money into the country -- and looked the other way as the bomb was built -- when it was our base for supplying the tribal armies that drove out the Soviet occupiers of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Then we came back after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, to overthrow the Taliban, the Pakistani-supported Islamic government that took over after the Soviets.

Our comings and goings only when we have needed Pakistani turf have generated massive anti-Americanism in the country. The belief that Gen. Pervez Musharaff and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto are tools of the United States is the reason their lives are ever at risk. Both will probably be assassinated before this is over. The dictator of the day when I was there, Gen. Zia ul-Haq, was killed when his plane exploded in mid-air.

This may sound simple to some, but re-reading what I wrote in the 1980s, I realize that my own view of how Pakistan can survive has not changed. The country's greatest (and solvable) problem is illiteracy. Most Pakistanis -- not the ones we meet -- cannot read or write. (The quoting of the Quran that we see and hear every day is usually from memorization rather than reading.) The "masses" are ignorant of the world outside and are easily manipulated by soldiers, politicians and mullahs, many of whom are astoundingly ignorant themselves.

A lot of people will die there now, killed by each other during a kind of endless cultural war as the rich and the army fight to keep the masses in their place. Americans, when it suits our purposes, will be there to help the ruling classes. Like the Pakistani elites, an impressive but frightened bunch, we are not interested in modern concepts of freedom, democracy and justice. What they want and what we want is order -- and only the army can provide that for the next few decades.




How come, out of all our trillions spent on the war on terror, can we hope to end the fertile recruiting ground of places like Pakistan, unless we spend some of it changing the governments and policies that breed terrorists?


 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
6,439
80
91
Originally posted by: techs

How come, out of all our trillions spent on the war on terror, can we hope to end the fertile recruiting ground of places like Pakistan, unless we spend some of it changing the governments and policies that breed terrorists?

So you'll bless off on an invasion for regime change in Pakistan?
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,112
930
126
Originally posted by: techs
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucrr/2...WogB4TeC82YRl.h1.QWxIF

O, PAKISTAN! By Richard Reeves
Mon Oct 22, 9:50 AM ET

NEW YORK -- I cried for Pakistan on Thursday night, not for the first time. And I'm sure not for the last.

I have lived there, worked there, gone back again and again to see friends, many of them former classmates of my wife's at Columbia University's School of International Public Affairs. It is, for me, a lovely and lively place, except that it is ever on the verge of blowing up itself or its neighbors or more.

It is the most dangerous place in the world. It does not change much, and when it does, it is usually for the worst. We all saw that last Thursday -- and things will get worse.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is dysfunctional, and it has been most of the time since its bloody birth on New Year's Day in 1947, when the British left colonial India divided into three parts, separate and unequal. There was what we now call India. As they raced for the ships home, the Brits of the Raj decided without too much thought to create two inherently unstable Muslim nations more than a thousand miles apart on either side of the new Hindu-dominated India, West Pakistan and East Pakistan. All the Pakistanis may have been Muslims, but they were different people speaking different languages.

West Pakistan became what we now call Pakistan, a country of 165 million people, most of them poor and ignorant, living in a different century from the rest of us and, often, each other. East Pakistan is now Bangladesh, after revolting in 1971, with help from India, against oppressive rule from West Pakistan.

This is how Pakistan works:

It is a military dictatorship, as it has been for most of its 60-year history. The reason for that is simple: The military is the only functioning institution in the country, controlling its own cantonments (or towns), roads and vehicles, corporations, schools and hospitals -- to say nothing of guns and a few atomic bombs.

To rule, the soldiers are required to provide reasonable security for the country's few and highly educated elites and allow ignorant mullahs with their Quranic law and madrassas to control "the masses." And in some of those rural areas, tribal areas, the central government has little or no power. (Osama bin Laden is believed to be hiding and plotting in those tribal areas, hard places that make the old Wild West seem like Paris.)

Everybody is in on it when it suits their purposes. The United States poured money into the country -- and looked the other way as the bomb was built -- when it was our base for supplying the tribal armies that drove out the Soviet occupiers of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Then we came back after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, to overthrow the Taliban, the Pakistani-supported Islamic government that took over after the Soviets.

Our comings and goings only when we have needed Pakistani turf have generated massive anti-Americanism in the country. The belief that Gen. Pervez Musharaff and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto are tools of the United States is the reason their lives are ever at risk. Both will probably be assassinated before this is over. The dictator of the day when I was there, Gen. Zia ul-Haq, was killed when his plane exploded in mid-air.

This may sound simple to some, but re-reading what I wrote in the 1980s, I realize that my own view of how Pakistan can survive has not changed. The country's greatest (and solvable) problem is illiteracy. Most Pakistanis -- not the ones we meet -- cannot read or write. (The quoting of the Quran that we see and hear every day is usually from memorization rather than reading.) The "masses" are ignorant of the world outside and are easily manipulated by soldiers, politicians and mullahs, many of whom are astoundingly ignorant themselves.

A lot of people will die there now, killed by each other during a kind of endless cultural war as the rich and the army fight to keep the masses in their place. Americans, when it suits our purposes, will be there to help the ruling classes. Like the Pakistani elites, an impressive but frightened bunch, we are not interested in modern concepts of freedom, democracy and justice. What they want and what we want is order -- and only the army can provide that for the next few decades.




How come, out of all our trillions spent on the war on terror, can we hope to end the fertile recruiting ground of places like Pakistan, unless we spend some of it changing the governments and policies that breed terrorists?

Lost cause!
Seems rediculous for the US to be engaged in anything that goes on over there, when all efforts to effect any change are going to be futile. More and more people will continue to die and it makes no sense to keep letting Americans die. This is like the war on drugs...it will never be won.

 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Well the problem is how people define "won", if you actually read the post the point is we need to increase education in the region. So, its not really even POSSIBLE to win for at least 25 years since you need to wait for an entire new generation of leaders to go through the new education system where they are not being brainwashed but instead are taught free thought. It is more or less impossible to convert people who have been taught something from the day they were born, so you right, its impossible to win in 5 years or 10 years or anything like that, so if your the type of person who needs instant gratification than you will NEVER win. Thats the problem with the US policy in all these places we think we can just come in and hand out alot of money for a few years and then get out, but for every 1 terrorist you kill you create 2 more. It would take decades of continued involvement to change an entire region, and American politicians simply don't have that long to wait for results, they need results NOW.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: BrownTown
It would take decades of continued involvement to change an entire region, and American Lefties simply don't have that long to wait for results, they need results NOW.
fixed.

Some of us have known all along that it would take decades; and, even so, many of us have even signed on to help out for as long as it takes!

 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Pakistan is on hold. Why invade now? We can wait for another 9/11 and get another 2-for-1 deal, like Afghanistan and Iraq. Only it'll be Pakistan and Iran.

 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: techs

How come, out of all our trillions spent on the war on terror, can we hope to end the fertile recruiting ground of places like Pakistan, unless we spend some of it changing the governments and policies that breed terrorists?

What use will it be when you are ignoring the training grounds such as Germany where the 9/11 plot was hatched?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: BrownTown
It would take decades of continued involvement to change an entire region, and American Lefties simply don't have that long to wait for results, they need results NOW.
fixed.

Some of us have known all along that it would take decades; and, even so, many of us have even signed on to help out for as long as it takes!
Nonsense, and your hubris is despicable. Those who led this current effort all teased us (and you) with ideas that the US would go in, topple Saddam, and Iraq would be the next great democracy all immediately and walk on streets of gold. There are countless quotes from Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al all lending to this idea. And to blame "Lefties" is truly rich, considering one of the primary democratic hopefuls right now (Obama) made some very poignant and entirely accurate comments about what a mess it would be. Ron Paul (R) also did, too. I recall a concern from Biden (D) as well. Not sure on others.

This whole "The left want to rush out but the more patient right need to stop being underminded by their impatience, since the right knew all along it would take a long time" is shameful and you ought to be ashamed of yourself for it!

 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
That's a very shallow article. You simply can not explain the politics of a country of 165million that has been through so much in so few words. Americans tend to oversimplify complicated matters. It is not only the poor classes that have become anti-American; it is the rising middle class. Most of Benazir supporters were from the poor villages of Sindh and Punjab where loyalty is above everything else. That's were Nawaz Sharif got his supporters from. The educated class sees benazir and Sharif as corrupt politicians who don't deserve to be here. They see Pakistan as being reduced to America's slave. They realize that America is a far greater threat to our interests than OBL. Musharraf needs to stand strong and reject American demands for a return to democracy. He needs to reject demands of any American action in the region. It's hard to tell what will happen but an American invasion of Iran is sure to mess everything up. It's hard to predict what would happen then. America needs to stop meddling in our region and we need to do something to ensure that.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
That's a very shallow article. You simply can not explain the politics of a country of 165million that has been through so much in so few words. Americans tend to oversimplify complicated matters. It is not only the poor classes that have become anti-American; it is the rising middle class. Most of Benazir supporters were from the poor villages of Sindh and Punjab where loyalty is above everything else. That's were Nawaz Sharif got his supporters from. The educated class sees benazir and Sharif as corrupt politicians who don't deserve to be here. They see Pakistan as being reduced to America's slave. They realize that America is a far greater threat to our interests than OBL. Musharraf needs to stand strong and reject American demands for a return to democracy. He needs to reject demands of any American action in the region. It's hard to tell what will happen but an American invasion of Iran is sure to mess everything up. It's hard to predict what would happen then. America needs to stop meddling in our region and we need to do something to ensure that.
How about eradicating the Taliban and Al Qaeda in your country for a start? If our enemies aren't being harbored there we have no need to deal with Pakistan.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
That's a very shallow article. You simply can not explain the politics of a country of 165million that has been through so much in so few words. Americans tend to oversimplify complicated matters. It is not only the poor classes that have become anti-American; it is the rising middle class. Most of Benazir supporters were from the poor villages of Sindh and Punjab where loyalty is above everything else. That's were Nawaz Sharif got his supporters from. The educated class sees benazir and Sharif as corrupt politicians who don't deserve to be here. They see Pakistan as being reduced to America's slave. They realize that America is a far greater threat to our interests than OBL. Musharraf needs to stand strong and reject American demands for a return to democracy. He needs to reject demands of any American action in the region. It's hard to tell what will happen but an American invasion of Iran is sure to mess everything up. It's hard to predict what would happen then. America needs to stop meddling in our region and we need to do something to ensure that.
How about eradicating the Taliban and Al Qaeda in your country for a start?

I was thinking more on the lines of a muslim union to tell the US to f*** off.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If our enemies aren't being harbored there we have no need to deal with Pakistan.

I wonder how long it will be before they make you believe that the whole of Pakistan is your enemy.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
That's a very shallow article. You simply can not explain the politics of a country of 165million that has been through so much in so few words. Americans tend to oversimplify complicated matters. It is not only the poor classes that have become anti-American; it is the rising middle class. Most of Benazir supporters were from the poor villages of Sindh and Punjab where loyalty is above everything else. That's were Nawaz Sharif got his supporters from. The educated class sees benazir and Sharif as corrupt politicians who don't deserve to be here. They see Pakistan as being reduced to America's slave. They realize that America is a far greater threat to our interests than OBL. Musharraf needs to stand strong and reject American demands for a return to democracy. He needs to reject demands of any American action in the region. It's hard to tell what will happen but an American invasion of Iran is sure to mess everything up. It's hard to predict what would happen then. America needs to stop meddling in our region and we need to do something to ensure that.
How about eradicating the Taliban and Al Qaeda in your country for a start?

I was thinking more on the lines of a muslim union to tell the US to f*** off.
Yeah but you are full of false bravado so your thinking is highly suspect.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: Braznor
Pakistan's greatest problem is not illiteracy. It's radical Islam.

And not Ethnic Tensions? Pakistan has quite a few issues...ah well atleast you aren't saying that the problem is just "Islam..."

And Vonkhan: not going to make for any good debate....
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Originally posted by: Braznor
Pakistan's greatest problem is not illiteracy. It's radical Islam.

I don't know...

...it's a lot easier to mind warp poor and illiterate people than it is to convince well off and literate people.

While I agree that radical Islam should be estinguished (as should all other radical forms of religion), I think if the populations as a whole in these 2nd and 3rd world countries - and even areas here in the US - could be brought into the fold so to speak on education, these radical ideas would be much less likely to flourish.

This is basically the only long term ideal that I was in favor of for going into Iraq. Until the Western world starts helping out these countries in terms of education, we're never going to get rid of the crazies and warped thinking. Unfortunately, to do that, you can't have people like Saddam, the Taliban, Kim Jong Il, etc. running things or you'll never succeed.

It's going to be a long, long battle to get this done...but get it done we must. In the era of nuke, bio, and chemical weapons, and easy global transportation, we don't have any other choice...

Chuck
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: BrownTown
It would take decades of continued involvement to change an entire region, and American Lefties simply don't have that long to wait for results, they need results NOW.
fixed.

Some of us have known all along that it would take decades; and, even so, many of us have even signed on to help out for as long as it takes!
Nonsense, and your hubris is despicable. Those who led this current effort all teased us (and you) with ideas that the US would go in, topple Saddam, and Iraq would be the next great democracy all immediately and walk on streets of gold. There are countless quotes from Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al all lending to this idea. And to blame "Lefties" is truly rich, considering one of the primary democratic hopefuls right now (Obama) made some very poignant and entirely accurate comments about what a mess it would be. Ron Paul (R) also did, too. I recall a concern from Biden (D) as well. Not sure on others.

This whole "The left want to rush out but the more patient right need to stop being underminded by their impatience, since the right knew all along it would take a long time" is shameful and you ought to be ashamed of yourself for it!

I remember watching C-SPAN a few years ago at the start of the official WoT and was answering some reporter some question (I'd just tuned in), and Bush's answer was basically the WoT was going to be long, that it would not be quick.

I wouldn't be surprised to see people dig up links to quotes that are the opposite of what I just posted, but, I think anyone with a reasonable grasp of the long term WoT had to realize that this is going to be a many decades long struggle. Frankly, I don't think the US et al has the patience to see it through, which will eventually be to our own detriment. Unfortunately if it can't be accomplished with near 0 loss of life, low $$$ expenditure, and accomplished in 2 weeks, it seems the American people start loosing patience. Chalk it up to our gotta have it now for nothing culture... :(

Chuck
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,872
10,182
136
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: techs

How come, out of all our trillions spent on the war on terror, can we hope to end the fertile recruiting ground of places like Pakistan, unless we spend some of it changing the governments and policies that breed terrorists?

What use will it be when you are ignoring the training grounds such as Germany where the 9/11 plot was hatched?

They lived and trained among us for a while too. We are also a breeding ground for Islamists.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,872
10,182
136
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
America needs to stop meddling in our region and we need to do something to ensure that.
How about eradicating the Taliban and Al Qaeda in your country for a start?

I was thinking more on the lines of a muslim union to tell the US to f*** off.

You were thinking of war and bloodshed against us?

For you are not our ally against the Taliban and Al Qaeda, you are their ally against us. Many of your posts over the past year have given indication of this, leading to a fairly obvious pattern which you have boldly declared here.

You don?t want to end the attacks against us, you want to empower those attacks and at the same time wonder why we consider destroying your country.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
America needs to stop meddling in our region and we need to do something to ensure that.
How about eradicating the Taliban and Al Qaeda in your country for a start?

I was thinking more on the lines of a muslim union to tell the US to f*** off.

You were thinking of war and bloodshed against us?

For you are not our ally against the Taliban and Al Qaeda, you are their ally against us. Many of your posts over the past year have given indication of this, leading to a fairly obvious pattern which you have boldly declared here.

You don?t want to end the attacks against us, you want to empower those attacks and at the same time wonder why we consider destroying your country.

You must understand that Pakistan is a sovereign country which maintains a right to try criminal suspects on its own. We should not hand over these suspects without proof like we are currently doing. These terrorists should be tried in Pakistani courts. Any attempt to attack these "terrorists" without our permission should be seen as an attack on our soveriegnity.

I totally reject the ideology of the terrorists. Just because America is wrong does not make them right. We are not with you and not against you. It is statements like "you are with us or against us" that is fueling hatred on both sides. The Americans rather than showing needless force, should to come to Pakistani courts in a civilized manner and get the suspects tried in a civilized manner. That's what the taliban wanted; but Americans with their overblown egos portray themselves as the superior people with the "God given right" to kill whoever they "deem necessary"

But if you must listen to the brainwashing propaganda of your government and press who give you the impression that one can only be with you or against you; then you're free to do so :roll:

And you are far from destroying our country. Apart from the military aid of $4bn that you provide us annually, FDI from America has crossed $2bn. You are providing us with F16s and other military tech; that's not called destroying. Whether we need to beg for American help in return of our honor is a another matter - a matter of solely internal debate.

To come back to your original question. "You were thinking of war and bloodshed against us?" We want peace unlike some of you. It is you who have been constantly thinking of war and bloodshed against us and still have the audacity to question one of ours when he tells you to f*** off as if he has committed a crime. I think withdrawing the $2trillion+ muslim dollars in American banks and changing the oil exchange reserves to Euros would hurt America far more than any of our bombs or weapons. In addition; it will mean we no longer need to depend on America for trade and oil with flourishing trade within a union. That will mean muslims will be stronger than ever both economically and strategically.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: techs

How come, out of all our trillions spent on the war on terror, can we hope to end the fertile recruiting ground of places like Pakistan, unless we spend some of it changing the governments and policies that breed terrorists?

So, you've been opposed to over-throwing Saddam yet advocate changing Pakaistans gov?

Fern
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: techs

How come, out of all our trillions spent on the war on terror, can we hope to end the fertile recruiting ground of places like Pakistan, unless we spend some of it changing the governments and policies that breed terrorists?

So, you've been opposed to over-throwing Saddam yet advocate changing Pakaistans gov?

Fern

yup; you people first need to change your own neo-fascist government before you start pointing fingers.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
America needs to stop meddling in our region and we need to do something to ensure that.
How about eradicating the Taliban and Al Qaeda in your country for a start?

I was thinking more on the lines of a muslim union to tell the US to f*** off.

You were thinking of war and bloodshed against us?

For you are not our ally against the Taliban and Al Qaeda, you are their ally against us. Many of your posts over the past year have given indication of this, leading to a fairly obvious pattern which you have boldly declared here.

You don?t want to end the attacks against us, you want to empower those attacks and at the same time wonder why we consider destroying your country.

You must understand that Pakistan is a sovereign country which maintains a right to try criminal suspects on its own. We should not hand over these suspects without proof like we are currently doing. These terrorists should be tried in Pakistani courts. Any attempt to attack these "terrorists" without our permission should be seen as an attack on our soveriegnity.

I totally reject the ideology of the terrorists. Just because America is wrong does not make them right. We are not with you and not against you. It is statements like "you are with us or against us" that is fueling hatred on both sides. The Americans rather than showing needless force, should to come to Pakistani courts in a civilized manner and get the suspects tried in a civilized manner. That's what the taliban wanted; but Americans with their overblown egos portray themselves as the superior people with the "God given right" to kill whoever they "deem necessary"

But if you must listen to the brainwashing propaganda of your government and press who give you the impression that one can only be with you or against you; then you're free to do so :roll:

And you are far from destroying our country. Apart from the military aid of $4bn that you provide us annually, FDI from America has crossed $2bn. You are providing us with F16s and other military tech; that's not called destroying. Whether we need to beg for American help in return of our honor is a another matter - a matter of solely internal debate.

To come back to your original question. "You were thinking of war and bloodshed against us?" We want peace unlike some of you. It is you who have been constantly thinking of war and bloodshed against us and still have the audacity to question one of ours when he tells you to f*** off as if he has committed a crime. I think withdrawing the $2trillion+ muslim dollars in American banks and changing the oil exchange reserves to Euros would hurt America far more than any of our bombs or weapons. In addition; it will mean we no longer need to depend on America for trade and oil with flourishing trade within a union. That will mean muslims will be stronger than ever both economically and strategically.
Yeah but given your history you'd just turn on each other.