Rebaged seasonic doesn't mean anything, there are plenty of mediocre seasonics and many seasonics are overpriced. This really holds true for every company, saying 'seasonic' doesn't really tell you anything, every company has budget offerings and high end offerings.
First off the asrock extreme4, i don't think i need to say anything on that, it's common knowledge it's just the worst board of all on z77 using D-PAK mosfets with no low-rds on, on an analogue low quality PWM, which uses linked phases instead of a doubler so it's more like a 4+1 phase than anything else (2 x 15A extremely inefficient, compared to ud3h which is 1x60A). Crucial could be anything, hopefully you bought the ballistix tactical low profiles where are awesome, not the lower quality standard sized crucials. vertex4 is lol, plextor and samsung got better choices. 302 is just showing it's age, unpainted interior, single 120 top mount, just lacks a lot of features. 560ti is lol, it's not much better than a 460 and slower than a 470.
i know way too much useless information. your probably much cooler irl than me
First off the asrock extreme4, i don't think i need to say anything on that, it's common knowledge it's just the worst board of all on z77 using D-PAK mosfets with no low-rds on, on an analogue low quality PWM, which uses linked phases instead of a doubler so it's more like a 4+1 phase than anything else (2 x 15A extremely inefficient, compared to ud3h which is 1x60A). Crucial could be anything, hopefully you bought the ballistix tactical low profiles where are awesome, not the lower quality standard sized crucials. vertex4 is lol, plextor and samsung got better choices. 302 is just showing it's age, unpainted interior, single 120 top mount, just lacks a lot of features. 560ti is lol, it's not much better than a 460 and slower than a 470.
i know way too much useless information. your probably much cooler irl than me
AustinInDallas
Golden Member
Obviously you think you know much more useless information then you think you do.
Z77 extreme 4 is one of the highest selling 1155 motherboards.
The ram came free with the motherboard and happens to be ballistix, but anyone that has read anything about ivy bridge ram knows that ram performance has almost no effect on everyday use or gaming.
The case has excellent thermal and noise performance for the price, no one gives a fuck if the interior is painted because hes never open.
Vertex4 with current firmware was one of the most stable and fastest drives last year at the best price.
Obviously something is wrong with you if you hate the 560ti. Its pretty much universally loved. You seem to just want to troll on everything and everyone.
Z77 extreme 4 is one of the highest selling 1155 motherboards.
The ram came free with the motherboard and happens to be ballistix, but anyone that has read anything about ivy bridge ram knows that ram performance has almost no effect on everyday use or gaming.
The case has excellent thermal and noise performance for the price, no one gives a fuck if the interior is painted because hes never open.
Vertex4 with current firmware was one of the most stable and fastest drives last year at the best price.
Obviously something is wrong with you if you hate the 560ti. Its pretty much universally loved. You seem to just want to troll on everything and everyone.
Meaningless, and totally unfounded comment that you pulled out of your butt. Furthermore, Asrock on P67 and Z68 was awesome, back when digital VRMs really weren't that developed, so a lot of people bought the Extreme4 and Extreme6 thinking it'd have the same level of quality as previous Asrock boards. The Extreme4 was also a little cheaper than the UD3H and Asus LK/LE, so of course a lot of people will buy it who don't know any better.
The MSI Z77A-G41 outsold the G1 Sniper, doesn't mean it's a better board...
lol? You mean, anyone who's read any terrible review by a site that doesn't know what they're talking about in regards to single player, low CPU usage scenarios instead of real world, CPU dependent large multiplayer games or CPU dependent games, based on the assumption that high speed RAM is extremely expensive?
Ivy Bridge had an incredible IMC, and if you bought PSC or BBSE RAM for the same price as the cheapest DDR3 RAM, you can net a good 1ghz overclock going from 1333-1600mhz to 2400mhz+ easily with tight timings on a decent overclock.
For an extra ZERO to $10, yea, I'd say a good 5-10fps boost is quite significant. Finally, gaming really isn't that intensive. No, I don't expect RAM overclocking when you all you do is play minesweeper or GPU dependent games like Bioshock single player or Crysis mean much, but then again, why are you buying an i5, an i7, or an Asrock Extreme4 if that's all you do?
There are certain people, like myself, that actually use what we buy. We work hard for our money, and want good things for the money. For people who just play games or read bad reviews, you would be better off buying motherboards for half the price.
Right now, you can find PSC RAM like Gskill Pis for $50-60 for 4x2GB, same price as the cheapest ram you'll find. On newegg right now, there's some 2400mhz CL11 double sided Hynix Gskill Ripjaws X that will easily do 2600mhz CL9 1.75v on Haswell (and on Ivy something like 2400 CL8) for $63. I'd say that's worth it for sure if you play 64 man multiplayer games, Starcraft, MMORPGs, RTS, or computational analysis or just enjoy overclocking.
Of course, bad review sites will tell you that the difference between 1333mhz and 1600mhz is only 1-2fps and that's not worth the money, but when you can buy 2400mhz-2600mhz RAM for the same price as 1333mhz RAM if you are smart about it (which you obviously aren't)... why woulnd't you? Especially if you do more than just play games?
LOL. Wow, you really dont have a clue do you?
'Excellent thermal performance'. Really? Do you know what makes a case have 'excellent thermal performance'? Throwing another $2 crappy 120mm fan in there and then charging an extra $20 to the consumer, will make the case perform 10x better than the most perfectly designed case.
Furthermore, what's good for airflow, ie mesh, holes, vents, is bad for sound. A case with good airflow is going to be louder, a mesh case is going to have great airflow but be much louder and dirtier than a solid case with poor airflow. It's as simple as that. If you really want 'good thermal performance' on a case, you put more fans on it, and a high quality case will have more fan mounting options than a poor quality case.
And not giving a fudge about the case (wow watch your mouth bro, no need to rage) interior is quite silly... many of us put custom windows in our cases. I guess some of us don't, but those same people would be better off buying $20-30 cases instead of spending $60 for cases that suck.
That's your problem. You buy expensive gear, when stuff half the price has better quality. You waste your money. Now, is that a big deal? Well, it isn't if your dad pays for your rent. But if your the dad, yea, it kinda matters to you!
All of the SSDs have stable firmware these days, it isn't gen1 ssd's anymore... Vertex4 isn't nearly as fast in every day usage as the Plextor or Samsung series SSDs which are way more popular, for the same price.
... where is it 'universally loved'? It's a GTX460 that costs twice as much. Now the 560ti is definitely a step up from the plain 560, but the 560 was universally panned as being the same thing as the 460.
People who have no clue what they are talking about 'loved' the 560TI because, out of all the new choices on newegg, it was competitive back in the 6xxx days. But it wasn't competitive to the 4xx series, or the 7xxx series.
Anyways, NZXT contacted me and said that they would personally send me a check last week. Today I got a money order for $20 (heh, I assume from NZXT, i have many fans ^^).
Like I said from the start, I don't mind if a company is slow and takes time, or is undergoing issues, but right now I'm wondering if they took care of me because of my loudmouth posts (do they even know that the person they sent the check to, was the same guy making these forums posts everywhere on every forum board?), or if they took care of everyone or at least every person who called in. Am I the only person who got a money order.
And, should I be glad that they resolved the issue, even if it was because I spent so much time harping on the issue, or still upset that it took this much effort?
I'd rather err on the side of just want my check, I'm glad it eventually happened, I don't mind... but god dang they really didn't make it easy, and I kinda feel like if I never made THIS BIG a stink, I never would have gotten the check.
Like I said from the start, I don't mind if a company is slow and takes time, or is undergoing issues, but right now I'm wondering if they took care of me because of my loudmouth posts (do they even know that the person they sent the check to, was the same guy making these forums posts everywhere on every forum board?), or if they took care of everyone or at least every person who called in. Am I the only person who got a money order.
And, should I be glad that they resolved the issue, even if it was because I spent so much time harping on the issue, or still upset that it took this much effort?
I'd rather err on the side of just want my check, I'm glad it eventually happened, I don't mind... but god dang they really didn't make it easy, and I kinda feel like if I never made THIS BIG a stink, I never would have gotten the check.
Ketchup
Elite Member
- Sep 1, 2002
- 14,559
- 248
- 106
I would have give the $20 to shut you up as well. Seriously, quit with the rude comments to other posters or go away.
I don't stand by while people spread misinformation. I may be rough in my tone, and I apologize (seriously? Dude is using words like 'f*@#' and is way ruder), but I state facts while others state misinformation that at best can be interpreted as apathy.
T_Yamamoto
Lifer
- Jul 6, 2011
- 15,007
- 795
- 126
Oh boy, this discussion again. Sure, I'll entertain it.
It's common knowledge. Just google it. But here you go:
Common Asrock issue, and it looks like it's holding true on asrock true:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1360404/a...-reading/0_100
Just google "asrock false voltage' i mean jeez, how do you buy a board without googling it?
https://www.google.com/search?q=asro...hrome&ie=UTF-8
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2308760
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB0dm2-nfpc
Literally, over 30 pages of it here, people saying it:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1360404/asrock-z77-series-vcore-reading
This is really just an issue of common sense, if you know anything about motherboards, all you would have to do is just look at the Asrock VRM:
no Low RDS on (3 pin with middle leg 'clipped'), single low and single high for each channel, bad drivers, no doubler... i mean you can just see the board is low quality VRM, you don't need anyone to tell you that.
Seriously, go read up on a VRM. Here's a very outdated, old primer for you, that's relevant only because the Extreme4 is that bad: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/arti...e-Motherboard-Voltage-Regulator-Circuit/616/4
As you can see, 3 pin mosfets with the middle leg cut out. That means it lacks a modern technology called 'Low RDS ON', which significantly reduces the amount of wasted output on a mosfet when it's in the ON position (ie current is flowing). You will not see non-Low RDS ON on any mosfet made in the last 2 years on any board above $100.
It's really a huge deal these mosfets don't have Low RDS On. This motherboard would literally be called trash 4 years ago back on AM3, that's how bad and outdated Low RDS on is. If you recall, the notorious MSi AM3 boards that were tragically and spectularly catching fire for so many AMD users for Phenom X4/X6, even on stock settings, were using these kinds of Mosfets.
To go more in-depth, these are D-PAK mosfets, which are extremely low quality:
MSI is the only other company that uses no Low RDS On mosfets, which is why they have a terrible reputation for motherboards, why their boards often catch fire (which now has been fixed by the fact that most of their lower end boards are simply voltage locked or voltage limited), and this is only on their G41 and G43 boards, which cost like $20-50 brand new.
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=1062005
Asrock uses Intersil for it's PWM, which is an analogue company. I could go on, and on, but okay, I think I've already established it's a bad board. But what about other boards, or maybe how does this matter in real life? Effectively, this means an Asrock Extreme4 Z77 is going to overheat somewhere around 1.4v+ on Ivy Bridge.
It's very easy to do 1.4v+ on Ivy Bridge, I ran 1.55v 24/7 on Ivy, I know many others ran 1.5v+ with high end air/water, and just about anyone who delidded and/or runs water did 1.4v+. You really need 1.4v+ if you have any intention of running 4.7ghz+ (yes, you could get lucky on your chip, but considering the average voltage for 4.7+).
Now, when it comes to overclocking your CPU, 3 things matter - CPU, MOBO, Heatsink:
1. The Chip. We all know binning matters.. About 50% can only do 4.5-4.6 below 1.45v (3 of my ivies were like that, 4.6@1.4-1.45v). Less than 10% can do 5ghz (my 5'er took 1.55v). But given that Ivy/Haswell increase rather linearly with voltage (not to be confused with heat!), even a bad chip can appreciate a better board+cooler - ie, a 4.5@1.4v would do 4.7@1.55v if you got the cooling.
2. Heatsink. Saying you don't care about your motherboard, or all motherboards are fine, is literally the exact same thing as saying all heatsinks are fine. No, just like you can't do a high overclock without water or at least high end air, you need a high end motherboard to do a high overclock, and a mid-range board to do a moderate overclock. Now a hyper 212+ will do the same thing as a 360mm rad Phobya custom loop w/Helix reservoir if all you do is 4.6ghz@1.3v, but if you want to do a higher overclock, you need a better heatsink. Like, you need a better...
3. Board. A board is literally a power supply to your CPU. Your PSU takes the 120v or 240v from your wall and turns it into 12v (and 5v, and 3.3v, etc). Your motherboard is not only what takes that 12v into ~1v-1.5v, but increases and decreases in nanoseconds based on software/firmware loads (a lot more difficult! that's why high quality PSUs are able to use things like electrolytic capacitors which would literally burst on a modern motherboard).
And just like a power supply, a good motherboard is efficient, it runs cooler, it lasts longer, it provides more stable power (ie a delta based psu like a lower end antec or corsair CX will vary and provide 12.5v, while a capstone will never do more than 12.2v), it has a better transcient (ie it handles changes in load better so you don't crash instantly on load or to idle or sleep because it can't provide the voltage change quick enough or smoothly enough), it performs better in high temps, it has less ripple/noise (ie voltage is more stable so you don't end up using more voltage than necessary), and it has a much longer lifetime.
Finally, a good board will not only supply voltage cleanly, efficiently, and accurately, it will report voltage accurately (no board is accurate, but better boards come at least within .02v of accurate). This is partly hardware, but also firmware, as boards use an algorithm to report software voltage - ie your voltage is never 1.5v, it's 1.4v to 1.6v to 1.4v to 1.6v, this keeps the chip cooler as it uses less voltage as necessary, when necessary, and the fact it'd cost thousands to eliminate this good effect (hence why max LLC is bad for air/water overclocking).
Now the difference between a good board and a bad board is nill when all you do is 4.6ghz@1.3v, but just like a the CPU, a motherboard can overheat. And lower end and mid-range boards will literally overheat before your heatsink do, even with just a mid-range air heatsink. A bottom barrel board like an MSI Z77A-G41 or Pro3 will overheat the same time a Hyper 212+ does, a mid-range board will overheat around the same time a mid-range heatsink like an H50, H60, Kuhler 620, Venomous X, Havik, etc will overheat, and it takes a high end board to keep up with high end heatsinks or water.
For example, my MSI Z77A-G41 on near-stock voltages of 1.25v, would hit over 80C! That's generally when you start to hear coil whine, and yea, it was louder than my 120mm fans on full blast (and a lot more obnoxious, with that high pitch...). 80C is also when you have significant performance degradation - your motherboard efficiency drops below 70% (ie 70% efficiency on 200w...) and you need more voltage for the same level of stability. 90C is when the PCB starts to brown and you see permanent damage over long term use, 100-125C is when things start to blow up in your face on lower quality parts. Meanwhile, my Havik 140 was only at 70C (and it was only 60C on same set-up with UD3H instead, who's VRM ran only 45C at that overclock). The G41 uses a similar MOSFETS to the extreme4. My A770E3 3+1 no low-rds on board hit 90C on just 1.5v on a phenom x4, and that's after I put a sawed off vrm heatsink and fan on it!
On top of a low quality VRM, ALL Asrock Z77 boards completely fudge their vcore numbers! Consistently, every single Asrock Z77 model, for every person who's tested it, is off by over .1v+! The difference between a reported 1.5v and an actual 1.53v really isn't a big deal, but going from 1.45v to 1.6v, that's absolutely insane and extremely dangerous! Only the Extreme4 uses low quality VRM, but all Asrock boards use the same, underreporting algorithm in the firmware to report vcore.
Now every board 'cheats' and this is why motherboard reviews and benchmarks are so damn misleading and bad. Every motherboard company fudges things a bit, all of them. Gigabyte dynamically loosens and tightens one of the tertiary RAM timings, so it magically scores higher in RAM overclocks and benches. Asus dynamically overclocks the BCLK, so it appears to run faster than other boards at stock when in reality it's not 'stock' at all. MSI, Biostar, they all do this. Asrock's little cheat, is to fudge the vcore, which hurts overclockers... but helps sales.
You might think your Asrock Extreme4 is fine at 4.7ghz@1.35v, but truth of the matter is that the board will die in ~5 years instead of 10+ years that a similarly priced Gigabyte, Asus, Biostar, or even MSi board will do. Furthermore, your VRM is getting hotter, meaning you run way less efficiently, meaning you are spending an extra $10/year in energy wasted (hotter temps = higher power consumption, 10C is about 10-20w for a 150-200w VRM and a 150-200w CPU). Your chip is also getting hotter, so you need better cooling than you would need otherwise.
Literally, an Asrock p67/z68 is a higher quality board than their z77 boards. Hence, the Extreme4 was widely purchased. Furthermore, there were a ton of extremely misleading reviews on the Asrock Extreme4 (and asrock series in general), inciting tons of people to buy the Asrock Z77 boards when in reality they were the worst choice. In fact, here's a choice page from a very bad offender, written by a terrible reviewer:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5793/...ith-ivy-bridge-asrock-asus-gigabyte-and-msi/3
This reviewer talks about how great the Asrock board was, when in reality he wasn't even using a multimeter, he used software to measure vcore which we all know is a cardinal sin. Furthermore, he is using CPU-Z (via OCCT), which back then was buggy in it's temp readings and specifically altered these results. He also talks about vdroop and ripple, which is absolutely useless and absurd - you will never see vdroop or ripple using software voltage reports, by their very nature, software reports an average, meaning the droops and peaks and valleys, will be left out!
If all you do is mild overclocks, don't waste your money on an Extreme4 when a $20 MSI Z77A-G41 would do the same job. Conversely, an Extreme4 is incapable of high end overclocks, and will suffer more on moderate overclocks, than the comparably priced Biostar, Gigabyte, and Asus boards. Mid-range Gigabyte boards on Z77, particularly D3H and up, offer high end quality for mid-range price, and the Asus boards use a decent VRM for their price. I'm sure for most of you the Extreme4 'works' just fine, but the issue is that something significantly cheaper would work the exact same, and something the same price would work 2-3x better and last 2-3x longer.
Finally, and so least importantly, is the motherboard build quality, connections, sound chip. Asrock uses same sound and connections as everyone else at the price level, but the Asrock's boards have absolutely atrocious build quality. It's not really a huge deal, but hold an Extreme4, and then hold a UD3H, and the difference is night and day. Also, the Extreme series boards have a reputation for being flimsy and weak, and the extreme4 is also slightly smaller than comparable boards. You can just see the board is 'empty' - it has the same sound chip, but is lower quality due to lower quality components powering the sound. There's little things like this all over the board, for the usb, sata, etc, that are all slightly lower quality on the Extreme4 (it may be slightly slower, likely completely unnoticeable in anything but benches if that, won't last as long, not as durable electronically). They are all quite minor, but basically Asrock Extreme series boards have terrible build quality and are flimsy, and things like sata connectors, usb, etc, really aren't very important on a board nor very different from one board to the next. I've handled and built a few builds with Extreme4s, and they definitely are flimsy pieces of crap in comparison (they feel like $60 biostar or msi boards).
You constantly hear people saying 'don't cheap out on the PSU' or 'you need a good heatsink for a good overclock', but it blows my mind that people overlook the motherboard when it's more influential than a PSU and overheats just like CPU. Don't tell me 'modern CPUs don't use that much power', because an i7-3770K can easily pull 200w+ at 5ghz@1.45v (mine did, killawatt, software, check sin's ib oc guide), which means your motherboard is pulling well over 250w due to (in)efficiency and VTT/IMC/iGPU/etc.
To blow off the board is MUCH sillier than blowing off a PSU, a $20 cx430 can still be used for high end overclocks just fine, and tell me again how little energy Ivy/Haswell uses yet still require 200w+ heatsinks. All that heat, all that wattage, emitted by your CPU, runs through your motherboard first!
It's common knowledge. Just google it. But here you go:
Common Asrock issue, and it looks like it's holding true on asrock true:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1360404/a...-reading/0_100
Just google "asrock false voltage' i mean jeez, how do you buy a board without googling it?
https://www.google.com/search?q=asro...hrome&ie=UTF-8
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2308760
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB0dm2-nfpc
Literally, over 30 pages of it here, people saying it:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1360404/asrock-z77-series-vcore-reading
This is really just an issue of common sense, if you know anything about motherboards, all you would have to do is just look at the Asrock VRM:
no Low RDS on (3 pin with middle leg 'clipped'), single low and single high for each channel, bad drivers, no doubler... i mean you can just see the board is low quality VRM, you don't need anyone to tell you that.
Seriously, go read up on a VRM. Here's a very outdated, old primer for you, that's relevant only because the Extreme4 is that bad: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/arti...e-Motherboard-Voltage-Regulator-Circuit/616/4
As you can see, 3 pin mosfets with the middle leg cut out. That means it lacks a modern technology called 'Low RDS ON', which significantly reduces the amount of wasted output on a mosfet when it's in the ON position (ie current is flowing). You will not see non-Low RDS ON on any mosfet made in the last 2 years on any board above $100.
It's really a huge deal these mosfets don't have Low RDS On. This motherboard would literally be called trash 4 years ago back on AM3, that's how bad and outdated Low RDS on is. If you recall, the notorious MSi AM3 boards that were tragically and spectularly catching fire for so many AMD users for Phenom X4/X6, even on stock settings, were using these kinds of Mosfets.
To go more in-depth, these are D-PAK mosfets, which are extremely low quality:
MSI is the only other company that uses no Low RDS On mosfets, which is why they have a terrible reputation for motherboards, why their boards often catch fire (which now has been fixed by the fact that most of their lower end boards are simply voltage locked or voltage limited), and this is only on their G41 and G43 boards, which cost like $20-50 brand new.
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=1062005
Asrock uses Intersil for it's PWM, which is an analogue company. I could go on, and on, but okay, I think I've already established it's a bad board. But what about other boards, or maybe how does this matter in real life? Effectively, this means an Asrock Extreme4 Z77 is going to overheat somewhere around 1.4v+ on Ivy Bridge.
It's very easy to do 1.4v+ on Ivy Bridge, I ran 1.55v 24/7 on Ivy, I know many others ran 1.5v+ with high end air/water, and just about anyone who delidded and/or runs water did 1.4v+. You really need 1.4v+ if you have any intention of running 4.7ghz+ (yes, you could get lucky on your chip, but considering the average voltage for 4.7+).
Now, when it comes to overclocking your CPU, 3 things matter - CPU, MOBO, Heatsink:
1. The Chip. We all know binning matters.. About 50% can only do 4.5-4.6 below 1.45v (3 of my ivies were like that, 4.6@1.4-1.45v). Less than 10% can do 5ghz (my 5'er took 1.55v). But given that Ivy/Haswell increase rather linearly with voltage (not to be confused with heat!), even a bad chip can appreciate a better board+cooler - ie, a 4.5@1.4v would do 4.7@1.55v if you got the cooling.
2. Heatsink. Saying you don't care about your motherboard, or all motherboards are fine, is literally the exact same thing as saying all heatsinks are fine. No, just like you can't do a high overclock without water or at least high end air, you need a high end motherboard to do a high overclock, and a mid-range board to do a moderate overclock. Now a hyper 212+ will do the same thing as a 360mm rad Phobya custom loop w/Helix reservoir if all you do is 4.6ghz@1.3v, but if you want to do a higher overclock, you need a better heatsink. Like, you need a better...
3. Board. A board is literally a power supply to your CPU. Your PSU takes the 120v or 240v from your wall and turns it into 12v (and 5v, and 3.3v, etc). Your motherboard is not only what takes that 12v into ~1v-1.5v, but increases and decreases in nanoseconds based on software/firmware loads (a lot more difficult! that's why high quality PSUs are able to use things like electrolytic capacitors which would literally burst on a modern motherboard).
And just like a power supply, a good motherboard is efficient, it runs cooler, it lasts longer, it provides more stable power (ie a delta based psu like a lower end antec or corsair CX will vary and provide 12.5v, while a capstone will never do more than 12.2v), it has a better transcient (ie it handles changes in load better so you don't crash instantly on load or to idle or sleep because it can't provide the voltage change quick enough or smoothly enough), it performs better in high temps, it has less ripple/noise (ie voltage is more stable so you don't end up using more voltage than necessary), and it has a much longer lifetime.
Finally, a good board will not only supply voltage cleanly, efficiently, and accurately, it will report voltage accurately (no board is accurate, but better boards come at least within .02v of accurate). This is partly hardware, but also firmware, as boards use an algorithm to report software voltage - ie your voltage is never 1.5v, it's 1.4v to 1.6v to 1.4v to 1.6v, this keeps the chip cooler as it uses less voltage as necessary, when necessary, and the fact it'd cost thousands to eliminate this good effect (hence why max LLC is bad for air/water overclocking).
Now the difference between a good board and a bad board is nill when all you do is 4.6ghz@1.3v, but just like a the CPU, a motherboard can overheat. And lower end and mid-range boards will literally overheat before your heatsink do, even with just a mid-range air heatsink. A bottom barrel board like an MSI Z77A-G41 or Pro3 will overheat the same time a Hyper 212+ does, a mid-range board will overheat around the same time a mid-range heatsink like an H50, H60, Kuhler 620, Venomous X, Havik, etc will overheat, and it takes a high end board to keep up with high end heatsinks or water.
For example, my MSI Z77A-G41 on near-stock voltages of 1.25v, would hit over 80C! That's generally when you start to hear coil whine, and yea, it was louder than my 120mm fans on full blast (and a lot more obnoxious, with that high pitch...). 80C is also when you have significant performance degradation - your motherboard efficiency drops below 70% (ie 70% efficiency on 200w...) and you need more voltage for the same level of stability. 90C is when the PCB starts to brown and you see permanent damage over long term use, 100-125C is when things start to blow up in your face on lower quality parts. Meanwhile, my Havik 140 was only at 70C (and it was only 60C on same set-up with UD3H instead, who's VRM ran only 45C at that overclock). The G41 uses a similar MOSFETS to the extreme4. My A770E3 3+1 no low-rds on board hit 90C on just 1.5v on a phenom x4, and that's after I put a sawed off vrm heatsink and fan on it!
On top of a low quality VRM, ALL Asrock Z77 boards completely fudge their vcore numbers! Consistently, every single Asrock Z77 model, for every person who's tested it, is off by over .1v+! The difference between a reported 1.5v and an actual 1.53v really isn't a big deal, but going from 1.45v to 1.6v, that's absolutely insane and extremely dangerous! Only the Extreme4 uses low quality VRM, but all Asrock boards use the same, underreporting algorithm in the firmware to report vcore.
Now every board 'cheats' and this is why motherboard reviews and benchmarks are so damn misleading and bad. Every motherboard company fudges things a bit, all of them. Gigabyte dynamically loosens and tightens one of the tertiary RAM timings, so it magically scores higher in RAM overclocks and benches. Asus dynamically overclocks the BCLK, so it appears to run faster than other boards at stock when in reality it's not 'stock' at all. MSI, Biostar, they all do this. Asrock's little cheat, is to fudge the vcore, which hurts overclockers... but helps sales.
You might think your Asrock Extreme4 is fine at 4.7ghz@1.35v, but truth of the matter is that the board will die in ~5 years instead of 10+ years that a similarly priced Gigabyte, Asus, Biostar, or even MSi board will do. Furthermore, your VRM is getting hotter, meaning you run way less efficiently, meaning you are spending an extra $10/year in energy wasted (hotter temps = higher power consumption, 10C is about 10-20w for a 150-200w VRM and a 150-200w CPU). Your chip is also getting hotter, so you need better cooling than you would need otherwise.
Literally, an Asrock p67/z68 is a higher quality board than their z77 boards. Hence, the Extreme4 was widely purchased. Furthermore, there were a ton of extremely misleading reviews on the Asrock Extreme4 (and asrock series in general), inciting tons of people to buy the Asrock Z77 boards when in reality they were the worst choice. In fact, here's a choice page from a very bad offender, written by a terrible reviewer:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5793/...ith-ivy-bridge-asrock-asus-gigabyte-and-msi/3
This reviewer talks about how great the Asrock board was, when in reality he wasn't even using a multimeter, he used software to measure vcore which we all know is a cardinal sin. Furthermore, he is using CPU-Z (via OCCT), which back then was buggy in it's temp readings and specifically altered these results. He also talks about vdroop and ripple, which is absolutely useless and absurd - you will never see vdroop or ripple using software voltage reports, by their very nature, software reports an average, meaning the droops and peaks and valleys, will be left out!
If all you do is mild overclocks, don't waste your money on an Extreme4 when a $20 MSI Z77A-G41 would do the same job. Conversely, an Extreme4 is incapable of high end overclocks, and will suffer more on moderate overclocks, than the comparably priced Biostar, Gigabyte, and Asus boards. Mid-range Gigabyte boards on Z77, particularly D3H and up, offer high end quality for mid-range price, and the Asus boards use a decent VRM for their price. I'm sure for most of you the Extreme4 'works' just fine, but the issue is that something significantly cheaper would work the exact same, and something the same price would work 2-3x better and last 2-3x longer.
Finally, and so least importantly, is the motherboard build quality, connections, sound chip. Asrock uses same sound and connections as everyone else at the price level, but the Asrock's boards have absolutely atrocious build quality. It's not really a huge deal, but hold an Extreme4, and then hold a UD3H, and the difference is night and day. Also, the Extreme series boards have a reputation for being flimsy and weak, and the extreme4 is also slightly smaller than comparable boards. You can just see the board is 'empty' - it has the same sound chip, but is lower quality due to lower quality components powering the sound. There's little things like this all over the board, for the usb, sata, etc, that are all slightly lower quality on the Extreme4 (it may be slightly slower, likely completely unnoticeable in anything but benches if that, won't last as long, not as durable electronically). They are all quite minor, but basically Asrock Extreme series boards have terrible build quality and are flimsy, and things like sata connectors, usb, etc, really aren't very important on a board nor very different from one board to the next. I've handled and built a few builds with Extreme4s, and they definitely are flimsy pieces of crap in comparison (they feel like $60 biostar or msi boards).
You constantly hear people saying 'don't cheap out on the PSU' or 'you need a good heatsink for a good overclock', but it blows my mind that people overlook the motherboard when it's more influential than a PSU and overheats just like CPU. Don't tell me 'modern CPUs don't use that much power', because an i7-3770K can easily pull 200w+ at 5ghz@1.45v (mine did, killawatt, software, check sin's ib oc guide), which means your motherboard is pulling well over 250w due to (in)efficiency and VTT/IMC/iGPU/etc.
To blow off the board is MUCH sillier than blowing off a PSU, a $20 cx430 can still be used for high end overclocks just fine, and tell me again how little energy Ivy/Haswell uses yet still require 200w+ heatsinks. All that heat, all that wattage, emitted by your CPU, runs through your motherboard first!
Last edited:
Now for the rest of your stuff. Sorry, mobos are complicated as heck, and I'm hoping I can inform people here of what appears to be a huge void in knowledge, in a topic I even know very little about and wish to know more on.
Depends what Crucial 8gb you have. If you bought the normal stuff, it sucks, you wasted your money. You can buy 4x2GB of PSC RAM like G.Skill Pis 1600 6-8-6 or Mushkin Enhanced Ridgeback/Blackline/Redline 2000 CL7-10-8 or 1600 6-8-6 for $50-60 shipped, easily, and they will easily overclock to ~2400mhz CL8 1.8v. You can also find Double Sided Hynix CFR in Gskill Ripjaws X 2x4gb for $59 shipped on newegg, 2400mhz CL11-13-13-31 which will easily do 2600mhz CL9 1.8v (provided your IMC is up to snuff).
So, with that in mind, buying any sort of bad, micron d9 or such low end RAM for the same $50-60 just means you don't really know better. Going from 1600 to 1866mhz doesn't make a big difference, sure, but going from 1600 to 2600mhz, for the exact same price... yea, i'd say that's definitely worth a good ~10fps boost.
However, the Crucial Ballistix Tactical Low Profiles 1600 CL8 1.35v:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148656
Not to be confused with the standard 1600 CL8 1.5v full size sticks...
is awesome budget RAM. They can generally overclock to about 2133mhz CL11 1.8v, probably more. Not the greatest RAM, honestly, but I think you can get them on combo at microcenter for super cheap, and are pretty good.
So I hope that's the RAM you have, and not the regular, full-size Crucials. But somehow I doubt that you knew that... You can look at the newegg reviews for posts from people who overclocked them, or you can just google them, I'm sure they have a fan club on OCN or something. They are micron d9, surprisingly, must either be high bins or just a new d9.
560TI is just slightly stronger than the 560, which is literally the same card as the 460. But so much has changed in GPUs, in prices, in the last year, so I'm not sure when you made the decision. 7850 nowadays is way better choice, or 470 for performance/price ratio.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1300302/ocz-vertex-4-vs-samsung-830
I suppose for a source. Vertex4 actually isn't terrible like the other Vertex drives (especially vertex 3) and many other OCZ drives, but their customer support isn't nearly as renowned as samsung.
It's not so much that the Vertex4 is a bad drive, it's a decent drive actually, but it's just not a special drive, while the Samsung 830, and even plain 840 (depending on price of course) are just extremely highly regarded, for good reason, and is the same price range.
Not sure what you paid for your vertex4, and what the 830 was when you got your vertex4, generally speaking the samsung 830 would just be a much smarter choice than the vertex4, but the vertex4 is not terrible by any means, and maybe some special sale occurred... i doubt, but just $10 is enough to change what ssd to get.
But dat 21 pages of 830 > vertex 4 lol...
Dont necessarily need sources, I've never seen a single good and honest case review anyways, just look at the pictures or actually have one, which I've worked with one too.
Inside is unpainted, which is absolutely atrocious. It might not matter to you, but it's standard nowadays for any case to be painted inside, it's been standard for years, which shows how outdated and old this case is (if you got a vertex4, then you shouldn't have this case unless that was an upgrade to an existing build).
Many people, myself included, put custom windows on our builds, not to mention other alterations, and maybe even run with the side panel off for extended periods of time, like during benchruns... That right there would make this case useless.
Lack of cable tie points, only 6 spread in weird spots, no top or bottom fan mounts(!!!). And for it's $74 price point, this case is absolute garbage! This price point is competing with Fractal Design Arc Midi R2/Define R4 which has 140mm fan mounts all over and solid black and windows and fan filters and feet and removable bays and decent 140mm fans, the shinobi with a window, black or white full paint jobs with filters and full featured and rubber/plastic mold on the front and top panels, the NZXT Phantom which is just highly stylized and window, the Corsair 200R/300R which is way better build quality, full black, window, more fan and radiator mounting options...
I mean it's a $75 case that you can't mount anything in without modding. It's okay for a budget case, but for a $75 case it's absolute junk. All you got is a $30-40 case with a few extra like filters and feed and toolless design, that's $50, then you got 2x120mm useless fans that they slap on for $12/ea.
Then, suckers buy the case because it has 'excellent thermal and noise properties' because they got suckered by yet another terrible review that gives a case A+++ all because they throw in an extra crappy fan. The case doesn't have any better thermals/noise properties than ANY other case under $100, it's just got 2 fans and a large, mesh front. The vast majority of case fans are better thrown in the garbage that get's stomped on by a $4 yate loon (although fractal I think uses decent fans, i think corsair just uses yates, and zalman actually has great fans. bitfenix fans are awful though).
Horrible case for $75. For $40 it'd be considerable. And it looks ugly, especially that white, but let's assume that's subjective. By the time I'm done with my cases they aren't ever recognizable so I don't really care what it looks like.
Depends what Crucial 8gb you have. If you bought the normal stuff, it sucks, you wasted your money. You can buy 4x2GB of PSC RAM like G.Skill Pis 1600 6-8-6 or Mushkin Enhanced Ridgeback/Blackline/Redline 2000 CL7-10-8 or 1600 6-8-6 for $50-60 shipped, easily, and they will easily overclock to ~2400mhz CL8 1.8v. You can also find Double Sided Hynix CFR in Gskill Ripjaws X 2x4gb for $59 shipped on newegg, 2400mhz CL11-13-13-31 which will easily do 2600mhz CL9 1.8v (provided your IMC is up to snuff).
So, with that in mind, buying any sort of bad, micron d9 or such low end RAM for the same $50-60 just means you don't really know better. Going from 1600 to 1866mhz doesn't make a big difference, sure, but going from 1600 to 2600mhz, for the exact same price... yea, i'd say that's definitely worth a good ~10fps boost.
However, the Crucial Ballistix Tactical Low Profiles 1600 CL8 1.35v:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148656
Not to be confused with the standard 1600 CL8 1.5v full size sticks...
is awesome budget RAM. They can generally overclock to about 2133mhz CL11 1.8v, probably more. Not the greatest RAM, honestly, but I think you can get them on combo at microcenter for super cheap, and are pretty good.
So I hope that's the RAM you have, and not the regular, full-size Crucials. But somehow I doubt that you knew that... You can look at the newegg reviews for posts from people who overclocked them, or you can just google them, I'm sure they have a fan club on OCN or something. They are micron d9, surprisingly, must either be high bins or just a new d9.
560TI is just slightly stronger than the 560, which is literally the same card as the 460. But so much has changed in GPUs, in prices, in the last year, so I'm not sure when you made the decision. 7850 nowadays is way better choice, or 470 for performance/price ratio.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1300302/ocz-vertex-4-vs-samsung-830
I suppose for a source. Vertex4 actually isn't terrible like the other Vertex drives (especially vertex 3) and many other OCZ drives, but their customer support isn't nearly as renowned as samsung.
It's not so much that the Vertex4 is a bad drive, it's a decent drive actually, but it's just not a special drive, while the Samsung 830, and even plain 840 (depending on price of course) are just extremely highly regarded, for good reason, and is the same price range.
Not sure what you paid for your vertex4, and what the 830 was when you got your vertex4, generally speaking the samsung 830 would just be a much smarter choice than the vertex4, but the vertex4 is not terrible by any means, and maybe some special sale occurred... i doubt, but just $10 is enough to change what ssd to get.
But dat 21 pages of 830 > vertex 4 lol...
Dont necessarily need sources, I've never seen a single good and honest case review anyways, just look at the pictures or actually have one, which I've worked with one too.
Inside is unpainted, which is absolutely atrocious. It might not matter to you, but it's standard nowadays for any case to be painted inside, it's been standard for years, which shows how outdated and old this case is (if you got a vertex4, then you shouldn't have this case unless that was an upgrade to an existing build).
Many people, myself included, put custom windows on our builds, not to mention other alterations, and maybe even run with the side panel off for extended periods of time, like during benchruns... That right there would make this case useless.
Lack of cable tie points, only 6 spread in weird spots, no top or bottom fan mounts(!!!). And for it's $74 price point, this case is absolute garbage! This price point is competing with Fractal Design Arc Midi R2/Define R4 which has 140mm fan mounts all over and solid black and windows and fan filters and feet and removable bays and decent 140mm fans, the shinobi with a window, black or white full paint jobs with filters and full featured and rubber/plastic mold on the front and top panels, the NZXT Phantom which is just highly stylized and window, the Corsair 200R/300R which is way better build quality, full black, window, more fan and radiator mounting options...
I mean it's a $75 case that you can't mount anything in without modding. It's okay for a budget case, but for a $75 case it's absolute junk. All you got is a $30-40 case with a few extra like filters and feed and toolless design, that's $50, then you got 2x120mm useless fans that they slap on for $12/ea.
Then, suckers buy the case because it has 'excellent thermal and noise properties' because they got suckered by yet another terrible review that gives a case A+++ all because they throw in an extra crappy fan. The case doesn't have any better thermals/noise properties than ANY other case under $100, it's just got 2 fans and a large, mesh front. The vast majority of case fans are better thrown in the garbage that get's stomped on by a $4 yate loon (although fractal I think uses decent fans, i think corsair just uses yates, and zalman actually has great fans. bitfenix fans are awful though).
Horrible case for $75. For $40 it'd be considerable. And it looks ugly, especially that white, but let's assume that's subjective. By the time I'm done with my cases they aren't ever recognizable so I don't really care what it looks like.
Last edited:
T_Yamamoto
Lifer
- Jul 6, 2011
- 15,007
- 795
- 126
Ketchup
Elite Member
- Sep 1, 2002
- 14,559
- 248
- 106
And someone has a LOT of time on their hands. And up until now I thought that was you, lol.
No, we don't. The difference is that you make up stuff, and I'm providing facts. I'm provided over 20 sources on why the Extreme4 is a bad board, and you've yet to give a single reason explaining why you think the Extreme4 is a good board. This is common knowledge to everyone else. If you went around saying that buying a sub-par power supply like an Apevia or OEM is totally okay to overclock on, you'd be ridiculed. You'd be ridiculed if you went around saying the Hyper 212 EVO is a good, high end heatsink (especially if it was the same price as the H100). Yet you go around saying the Extreme4 is a good board, when it straight up isn't. Don't misjudge completely misinformed and an acceptance of ignorance, with differing opinions.
Differing opinions would be something like "I think the Extreme4 looks better than the UD3H". Fact would be that "That every single $100+ Z77 motherboard has a significantly higher quality VRM that can output more wattage, more efficiently, than the Extreme4, and that Asrock incorrectly reports vcore"
It's like you trying to say it's 'only difference of opinion that a Mustang is a better car than a Civic'. No, it's straight up fact, that the Mustang is a better car, 99% of which is because it has a much better engine. The difference in analogies here is that the 'Civic' is the exact same price as the Mustangs and BMWs.
Last edited:
It's more like I'm not talking to dude, I'm talking to people who are searching this issue and may not know, and want to know.
T_Yamamoto
Lifer
- Jul 6, 2011
- 15,007
- 795
- 126
I am not going to argue the board but I will point out that "DPAK" otherwise known as TO-252 is just a package. The missing third leg doesn't mean anything as DPAK is missing that leg by design. It isn't "clipped." STMicro, Vishay, and infineon all make low Rds on Mosfets in DPAK/TO-252. In DPAK leg 2 is the base slug which is designed to drive heat in to the board. IPAK/TO-251 is the heatsink package.
Generic package datasheet - Not product specific but in this case they are referring to diode in a dpak.
http://www.diodes.com/_files/zetex_files/pack/DPAK.pdf
STMicro (random) example. Rds(on) < 0.0005Ω Max 80A Max 30V
http://www.st.com/web/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/CD00230827.pdf
Vishay Rds(on) < 0.0045Ω
http://www.vishay.com/docs/66824/sud42n03.pdf
In the tech docs you will see leg 2 is referred to as "tab" or "slug" depending on the brand.
TO-251 is a though hole design that looks more like a traditional power transformer. There really isn't a reason that a mosfet couldn't be stuck in a TO-3 and the like either. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if they have them.
--edit--
TO-3 0.055Ω
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/jantx2n6764.pdf
http://www.diodes.com/_files/zetex_files/pack/DPAK.pdf
STMicro (random) example. Rds(on) < 0.0005Ω Max 80A Max 30V
http://www.st.com/web/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/CD00230827.pdf
Vishay Rds(on) < 0.0045Ω
http://www.vishay.com/docs/66824/sud42n03.pdf
In the tech docs you will see leg 2 is referred to as "tab" or "slug" depending on the brand.
TO-251 is a though hole design that looks more like a traditional power transformer. There really isn't a reason that a mosfet couldn't be stuck in a TO-3 and the like either. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if they have them.
--edit--
TO-3 0.055Ω
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/jantx2n6764.pdf
Last edited:
I believe rds on is different from low rds on, and the newer lower rds on chips (like what gigabyte uses, i believe asus too).
Rds(on) refers to the Ω from gate -> drain and nothing more. "Low" Rds(on), more correctly said "Lower Rds(on)," means the resistance is lower and thus more efficient. How they attain the lower resistance does change the design of the mosfet but it functions otherwise identically with reduced heat output.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter