NYTimes Poll & Article - Americans generally fear/hate Gays

[Pandaren]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/21/national/21GAY.html?pagewanted=2&hp

he latest New York Times/CBS News poll has found widespread support for an amendment to the United States Constitution to ban gay marriage

The poll also found that by a 61-34 margin, Americans oppose gay marriage. They are slightly more accepting of civil unions to give gays some of the same legal rights as married couples, with 54 percent opposed to civil unions and 39 percent supportive

Here are some examples:

Theresa Eaton, 49, a financial analyst in Corona, Calif., and also a Republican, agreed.

"I still believe that marriage should be between a man and woman," she said. "If I knew that we had a neighbor who was gay, I would not let my nieces and nephews go close by there. I don't want to accept their lifestyle. It can be acquired and it is not right."

I want my children to grow up and be normal people like me and my father and my grandfather was," said Ziad Nimri, 41, a salesman and a Democrat who lives in Spokane, Wash. "I don't want my children to start getting ideas. They see it's out in the open and you see men kissing men on television these days

It pisses me off as an American that such prejudice still exists and is so prevelant. Being gay isn't a choice. I don't think a gay person's instinct to pursue members of the same sex is any different than me chasing after cute chicks.

Replace "gay" with "black" in the statements that anti-gays make and see for yourself how ridiculous it sounds.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: Pandaren
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/21/national/21GAY.html?pagewanted=2&hp

he latest New York Times/CBS News poll has found widespread support for an amendment to the United States Constitution to ban gay marriage

The poll also found that by a 61-34 margin, Americans oppose gay marriage. They are slightly more accepting of civil unions to give gays some of the same legal rights as married couples, with 54 percent opposed to civil unions and 39 percent supportive

Here are some examples:

Theresa Eaton, 49, a financial analyst in Corona, Calif., and also a Republican, agreed.

"I still believe that marriage should be between a man and woman," she said. "If I knew that we had a neighbor who was gay, I would not let my nieces and nephews go close by there. I don't want to accept their lifestyle. It can be acquired and it is not right."

I want my children to grow up and be normal people like me and my father and my grandfather was," said Ziad Nimri, 41, a salesman and a Democrat who lives in Spokane, Wash. "I don't want my children to start getting ideas. They see it's out in the open and you see men kissing men on television these days

It pisses me off as an American that such prejudice still exists and is so prevelant. Being gay isn't a choice. I don't think a gay person's instinct to pursue members of the same sex is any different than me chasing after cute chicks.

Replace "gay" with "black" in the statements that anti-gays make and see for yourself how ridiculous it sounds.

the selection i bolded is what i have trouble with.

of corse it is their choice! they have the ability to choose weather or not to act on this 'instinct'. its like people who have the 'instinct' for murder, rape, and theft. a lot of them know its wrong and therefore dont act on this 'instinct'. take me for an example. ive thought numerous times about stealing money from work [im talking about multiple thousands of dollars in my case, not some piddly $5 crap that most cashiers steal from their till.] ive also entertained plans for putting a car bomb on/in one of my managers truck because i hate him that much.

but alas, i suppressed those 'instincts' because they are wrong and i know i shouldnt act on those 'instincts'.

and it pisses me off to see people promoting the gay agenda and trying to get this crap be an acceptable practice in todays society.

 

[Pandaren]

but alas, i suppressed those 'instincts' because they are wrong and i know i shouldnt act on those 'instincts'.

Why is being in a gay relationship wrong? Murder, rape, and theft are wrong because they are destructive to the kind of free and safe society that almost all people want.

I don't see how two consenting gay adults cause harm to others (as in the case of murder, rape, other violent crimes) or wrongfully deprive others of resources (as in theft, larceny, or conversion).

I could just as easily argue that your 'instinct' for heterosexual relations is 'wrong'.

and it pisses me off to see people promoting the gay agenda and trying to get this crap be an acceptable practice in todays society

Being Black in Birmingham Alabama, 1960, wasn't "acceptable" either.

 

[TheBDB]

Genesys - Society doesn't accept instinctual behavior like murder, rape, and theft because these are harmful to other people. Show me how people being gay hurts me and I will support a ban on it.

 

[Teclis2323]

"it pisses me off to see people promoting the gay agenda and trying to get this crap be an acceptable practice in todays society."
What are you so afraid of, Genesys? It's a physiological difference that prompts different actions. I don't think conservatives should be able to be so selfish and ignorant, but you don't see me marching in parades to stop them. Blacks have been persecuted for hundreds of years for being "less than human," and Jews have always been considered (throughout Europe and Asia) subhuman as well. Do you believe that?

Of course, Christians used to justify segregation through the Bible, just as they now justify homophobia through the Bible. So many of them seem to gleefully overlook the passages where Jesus says things like, "Let he who carries no sin throw the first stone." But then again, it's not actually about the Bible, is it? It's all about self-empowerment and preservation through ignorance and suppression of things you don't understand.

I think I'll go practice some scary Judaism now.

 

[NesuD]

Being Black in Birmingham Alabama, 1960, wasn't "acceptable" either.

It also wasn't a choice! on the other hand making a choice to live a particular lifestyle is therefore it is not comparable to skin color. You can keep beating the "born that way" horse but intelligent objective people know the difference. We are born with physical characteristics that short of surgical intervention are basically beyond our control and therefore not a choice We are also born with psychological characteristics that compel us to behave in certain ways. Fortunately we are creatures of freewill and can make choices to act or not to act on those compulsions so our behaviour becomes a choice which we can control unlike skin color or other physical characteristics. So "born that way" doesn't hold water in comparing the homosexual lifestyle to race. Please stop doing it.

 

[Pandaren]

So "born that way" doesn't hold water in comparing the homosexual lifestyle to race. Please stop doing it.

Your contention is that homosexuals have a choice not to act on their compulsions, and that to act on those compulsions (desire to marry, find someone special) is wrong. Why is the compulsion to be a homosexual "wrong" then? I am a heterosexual and have a compulsion to chase women. It's not a behavior that is destructive to society, and there is no way that I would ever not want to chase women.

We lock up compulsive murderers and theives because they cause material and unjust harm to others. A gay person choosing to pursue their compulsion with like a like minded gay person causes no such material harm to other persons. This is a point that anti-gay people fail to address time and time again.

why do people think homosexuality is wrong, despite the fact that it is a natural compulsion that causes no harm to others? That is the question presented.

Put another way: why should you (presumably heterosexual) have the right to pursue your heterosexual compulsions (to marry), which when normally exercised, do not cause harm to third parties, when homosexuals, whose compulsions differ in only one aspect, the gender of people they pursue as a result of exercising those compulsions, are denied the same right?

 

[SuperTool]

I have no problem with gay people. I have a problem with stupid people who get their sexuality in everyone's face. I mean gay flags, gay parades, gay bumper stickers, gay clubs in school. Frankly when I am driving, I don't want to know that the guy in front of me is a fruit. Or walking down the street, I don't want to see gay flags flying around like in West Hollywood. It's a private sexual matter, and should be treated like such. Like in school there are gay lesbian transgender clubs. Should we have a 69 or threesome club in schools too? How about golden showers, bestiality, or S&M club in highschool? I mean there is a club dedicated to one sexual prefference, why not all?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: NesuD

Being Black in Birmingham Alabama, 1960, wasn't "acceptable" either.

It also wasn't a choice! on the other hand making a choice to live a particular lifestyle is therefore it is not comparable to skin color. You can keep beating the "born that way" horse but intelligent objective people know the difference. We are born with physical characteristics that short of surgical intervention are basically beyond our control and therefore not a choice We are also born with psychological characteristics that compel us to behave in certain ways. Fortunately we are creatures of freewill and can make choices to act or not to act on those compulsions so our behaviour becomes a choice which we can control unlike skin color or other physical characteristics. So "born that way" doesn't hold water in comparing the homosexual lifestyle to race. Please stop doing it.

How sad it is to watch a bigot try to turn his bias into logic. It's obvious you can't blame homosexuals for being homosexual because they have no choice, but you can carry over your bigotry to them over onto a later stage. "OK now listen up to my genius thinking. Being a homosexual isn't a choice, but engaging in homosexual sex is. See, homosexuals are still bad."

Right, because you passed by the homosexual and condemned his act. Who are you to say the homosexual, unlike the rest of the human race, shouldn't have sex. The fact that homosexuality is not a choice means that the homosexual is entitled to the sex that is his natural choice, just like you are entitled to the sex you choose. You just have to face the fact that you are a bigot and any thoughts you think on this are bound to come out bigoted. Your objections to homosexuality are fabricated in your head.

 

[ReiAyanami]

being gay may or may not be "wrong" but it however is definetly biologically infeasible, unless that gay person is also bisexual

 

[daniel1113]

YAWN. There are a thousand other threads about this very subject, and coincidentally, they all seem to bring up civil rights in the 1960s.

 

[Zebo]

Disagree with my liberal freinds on whether it's a choice or born. I think they use that line to propogate thier argument and equate it to black struggle which indeed is not a choice. If not, how do you explain Bi-sexuals (born going both ways)? 90% prison gay population or more only to be straight again upon release? Or guys, married with children, who happen to "discover" in thier late life they were "born" that way?

My belief is men are opportunists plain and simple. Women are two drinks away form it.

However I do think they should have the choice and freedom to do what they want and be equal before the law in any relationship they choose so long as it's consentual. This includes bigomay, polygomy, homosexuality... all should be a choice anyone can make.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: Pandaren
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/21/national/21GAY.html?pagewanted=2&hp

he latest New York Times/CBS News poll has found widespread support for an amendment to the United States Constitution to ban gay marriage

The poll also found that by a 61-34 margin, Americans oppose gay marriage. They are slightly more accepting of civil unions to give gays some of the same legal rights as married couples, with 54 percent opposed to civil unions and 39 percent supportive

Here are some examples:

Theresa Eaton, 49, a financial analyst in Corona, Calif., and also a Republican, agreed.

"I still believe that marriage should be between a man and woman," she said. "If I knew that we had a neighbor who was gay, I would not let my nieces and nephews go close by there. I don't want to accept their lifestyle. It can be acquired and it is not right."

I want my children to grow up and be normal people like me and my father and my grandfather was," said Ziad Nimri, 41, a salesman and a Democrat who lives in Spokane, Wash. "I don't want my children to start getting ideas. They see it's out in the open and you see men kissing men on television these days

It pisses me off as an American that such prejudice still exists and is so prevelant. Being gay isn't a choice. I don't think a gay person's instinct to pursue members of the same sex is any different than me chasing after cute chicks.

Replace "gay" with "black" in the statements that anti-gays make and see for yourself how ridiculous it sounds.

the selection i bolded is what i have trouble with.

of corse it is their choice! they have the ability to choose weather or not to act on this 'instinct'. its like people who have the 'instinct' for murder, rape, and theft. a lot of them know its wrong and therefore dont act on this 'instinct'. take me for an example. ive thought numerous times about stealing money from work [im talking about multiple thousands of dollars in my case, not some piddly $5 crap that most cashiers steal from their till.] ive also entertained plans for putting a car bomb on/in one of my managers truck because i hate him that much.

but alas, i suppressed those 'instincts' because they are wrong and i know i shouldnt act on those 'instincts'.

and it pisses me off to see people promoting the gay agenda and trying to get this crap be an acceptable practice in todays society.

your comparing instincts on who you love to murder rape and theft? thats really nice to know...

the fact that your thought process is so weak that you'd compare willful acts of violence to love between two people is rather sick.

people often wonder how people were so hateful during past times, nazi's, segregation/slavery... how people can arrogantly see themselves fit to judge others as deviant with mostly emotion, faith, and fallacy. its not hard to see why here.

and if you somehow made a conscious choice to be heterosexual, to be a heterosexual to the very fiber of your being, from your very first memory of sexual thought, then your ability to mold your mind is beyond exceptional.

just ask yourself, could you really switch sides? really, not pretend, or act along.

 

[Bitdog]

Failure to support the rights of others to be different is quite un_American.
Probably unconstutional too. This quote really puts some meaning to it:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Replace "gay" with "black" in the statements that anti-gays make and see for yourself how ridiculous it sounds.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't choose to yawn if some one wants their rights. Homophobia is a mental problem brought about by ignorance.
I got a few lessons on supporting the rights of others & an end to some of my gay ignorance when I was
the only non gay living in a house hold of gays. I'm still non gay & I still don't like public sexual displays or gay pride parades, but supporting all their rights to freedom & the persuit of happiness is very important.
If their activity is wrong, let god sort them out.
We should not be allowed to vote away anothers rights.
If you can't be tollerant of others & support their rights to be different,
do not work for the government as a public servant,
you'll only be serving yourself.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

If it's a choice why do so many people choose to be gay? Why would anyone choose to be gay?

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
I have no problem with gay people. I have a problem with stupid people who get their sexuality in everyone's face. I mean gay flags, gay parades, gay bumper stickers, gay clubs in school. Frankly when I am driving, I don't want to know that the guy in front of me is a fruit. Or walking down the street, I don't want to see gay flags flying around like in West Hollywood. It's a private sexual matter, and should be treated like such. Like in school there are gay lesbian transgender clubs. Should we have a 69 or threesome club in schools too? How about golden showers, bestiality, or S&M club in highschool? I mean there is a club dedicated to one sexual prefference, why not all?

i agree with this 100%. i dont care what you do as long as youre not trying to flaunt it in my face. thats probably the first thing ST has said that i agree with.

Genesys - Society doesn't accept instinctual behavior like murder, rape, and theft because these are harmful to other people. Show me how people being gay hurts me and I will support a ban on it.

in the very first post you see a quote from a guy who says he doesnt want his kids to grow up normal like himself and his grandfather. so is corrupting a kids mind not destructive enough for you? think about a parent who has to explain what homosexuality is to their young child. what do you do? what do you tell them? if theyre especially young [under 10 or so] you really could scar them for life. what about hetero marriages that were/are ruined by one of them 'discovering' they are homo? what about a parent/child relationship thats ruined when one of them 'discovers' they like the same sex?

Why is being in a gay relationship wrong? Murder, rape, and theft are wrong because they are destructive to the kind of free and safe society that almost all people want.

think about the divide this country is faceing because of this issue. you already have people that act out violently against gays and their silly 'rights' parades. hows that for destructive? did you know that domesetic abuse is higher in lesbian relationships than in gay [male] or hetero relationships? is that a destructive force in society? what if the violent lesbians have a child?

What are you so afraid of, Genesys?

nothing, as long as theyre not in my face about it. i know theyre here, i know theyre queer. now they need to get over themselves and go back indoors and have their relationship indoors like decent people and NOT share it with people who dont want to hear about it or who just dont care.

your comparing instincts on who you love to murder rape and theft? thats really nice to know...

the fact that your thought process is so weak that you'd compare willful acts of violence to love between two people is rather sick.

people often wonder how people were so hateful during past times, nazi's, segregation/slavery... how people can arrogantly see themselves fit to judge others as deviant with mostly emotion, faith, and fallacy. its not hard to see why here.

and if you somehow made a conscious choice to be heterosexual, to be a heterosexual to the very fiber of your being, from your very first memory of sexual thought, then your ability to mold your mind is beyond exceptional.

just ask yourself, could you really switch sides? really, not pretend, or act along.

first off, thats some nice, fancy rhetoric youre using. but it doesnt make you look any more intelligent. i especially liked the bolded portion. oh well. yes, i am comparing rape and murder to homsexuality. perhaps someone really loves to kill other human beings, just like one really loves a member of the same sex. perhaps one feels ultimately compelled to steal just like one feels ultimately compelled to love another man/woman.

other than saying that murder, rape, and theft are outwardly destructive to society, tell me why i shouldnt compare them to homosexuality. its all instinctual and based on choices you make, not your genetic makeup.

I think I'll go practice some scary Judaism now.

be my guest, but please remember that homosexuality is an abomination to your God and that by supporting it, youre defying God.

If it's a choice why do so many people choose to be gay? Why would anyone choose to be gay?

i guess it depends on how they grew up and what kind of childhood/adolescence they had. whatever happened to twist their mind to think that way, i suppose.

 

[Bitdog]

Quote:
If it's a choice why do so many people choose to be gay? Why would anyone choose to be gay?


*hand goes up, pick me pick me, I know part of that one.

In many gay relationships neither party is looking for a good provider (to steal from).
Reporting in or being in on time along with other freedoms may not be as restrictive.
One actually knows what the others love needs are.
Game playing as a mental war on a daily basis may be reduced.
It may not be an actual choice, it's just something that happens, & if it's good, it continues.
Many people have bad home lives as children in an unhappy or unloveing home and arn't willing to step
into a simular "Leave it to beaver" role as provider or house mom, so when other opportunities come around it happens.
There is an adventure factor along with a freedom factor, all of which you won't find in a relationship that trys to appear normal. & sometimes the nice guy next door turns out to be the child or wife beater, molesting priests, it just goes on, and on, etc.
So normal isn't actually a good thing.

Well that's a start anyway.
But if you believe in "live and let live" to the point you're able to apply it,
then what their actual individual reasons for becomming gay is of lesser importance.
Humans have short commings that we don't admit to freely.
Getting an honest answer from a gay may be impossible.
Maybe they don't want or like kids now ?
Maybe there isn't the financial freedom to be a "good provider" ?
There are a million reason and we all have some of those same things going on in our lives right now.

 

[maXroOt]

that is a damn iggnorant and heterosexist comment. the reason that certain groups ban together (ie homosexuals) is to try to get a movement going to get some freakin rights! i mean, it wasnt until this summer that homosexual sex was finally completely legalized! do you think gay ppl want to know about your sexuality when u kiss a girl in public? why should ur way be the "right" way and everything else be otherized?

and what the hell is this about gay clubs being the same as (or leading too) bestiality, and some fetish clubs. i hope u arent saying bestiality is equivalent to homosexuality.

and about this entire race analogy issue: it is true that there is a difference of race and sexuality in the sense of what can be choosen or not. race u are born w/ (though actually it has no genetic trace) while it is arguable if u are born w/ your sexuality (false dichotomy of nature vs. nurture, etc). lets just say you choose your sexuality, as others pointed out, it still can be linked to the entire race analogy. lets think about it, racism is when people think a certain race is inferior. they are lesser human beings. now homophobia is similar, except bias against the sexuality of a person. does that make that person less of a human being, whether or not they chose that lifestyle? well, according to much of america and the world, yes it does. like, under the International Criminal Court, it is illegal to commit rape against a male or female that acts in the traditional gender roles. but it is perfectly legal to rape a transgedered person, or a homosexual. and yet, the statute's ideas of how a female or male acts is horrible, it assumes that a lesbian is not really a female, and that a gay male is not really a male. now do u see the link? just cause homosexuals may choose there lifestyle, doesnt mean that we should make that lifestyle choice something of a dehumanizing manner. hey, i have an idea, lets kill all the christians and jews! right? i mean, all they have choosen there religion (though yes, judism can be considered an ethnicity, not just a religion) just like u say homosexuals have, does that make it any better?

 

[0roo0roo]

first off, thats some nice, fancy rhetoric youre using. but it doesnt make you look any more intelligent. i especially liked the bolded portion. oh well. yes, i am comparing rape and murder to homsexuality. perhaps someone really loves to kill other human beings, just like one really loves a member of the same sex. perhaps one feels ultimately compelled to steal just like one feels ultimately compelled to love another man/woman.

other than saying that murder, rape, and theft are outwardly destructive to society, tell me why i shouldnt compare them to homosexuality. its all instinctual and based on choices you make, not your genetic makeup.

your saying that there are no such things as psychopaths? people who are born without an ability to empathize with their vicitms? kids that grow up torturing animals. that people aren't born retarded, with brain chemical imbalances, with gender identity disorders, hermaphrodites, etc etc etc. your whole argument is that there are no genetic factors in the human condition. except you side step and try to have it both ways by calling predispositions instinctual.

you tell me why i shouldn't compare heterosexuality to murderists and rapists?? after all you haven't given a real reason why you place them all in the same group. a real reason why they are destructive ot society. a reason why they would be better to society forced to live as pseudo heterosexuals, living lies their entire lives. why homosexuality is destructive to anyone if as its been proven, not contageous.

what are you basing your opinion on besides fear and religion? after all, the AMA and other professional medical organizations/experts find them benign, able to raise normal children etc. so science is certainly not on your side.

and in a world full of suffering, and one where no truthful person can pretend they know much at all, you feel arrogant enough
condemn other beings to suffering when they hurt no one. do you really pretend to know the mind of god?

comparing the desire to steal to the desire to love another person of a certain gender with every fiber of their being is just sad. do most people desire to steal on that level? a truely fundamental drive?

 

[Moonbeam]

i guess it depends on how they grew up and what kind of childhood/adolescence they had. whatever happened to twist their mind to think that way, i suppose.
-------------------------
Bigots fill in the blanks with bigotry.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

first off, thats some nice, fancy rhetoric youre using. but it doesnt make you look any more intelligent. i especially liked the bolded portion. oh well. yes, i am comparing rape and murder to homsexuality. perhaps someone really loves to kill other human beings, just like one really loves a member of the same sex. perhaps one feels ultimately compelled to steal just like one feels ultimately compelled to love another man/woman.

other than saying that murder, rape, and theft are outwardly destructive to society, tell me why i shouldnt compare them to homosexuality. its all instinctual and based on choices you make, not your genetic makeup.

your saying that there are no such things as psychopaths? people who are born without an ability to empathize with their vicitms? kids that grow up torturing animals. that people aren't born retarded, with brain chemical imbalances, with gender identity disorders, hermaphrodites, etc etc etc. your whole argument is that there are no genetic factors in the human condition. except you side step and try to have it both ways by calling predispositions instinctual.

you tell me why i shouldn't compare heterosexuality to murderists and rapists?? after all you haven't given a real reason why you place them all in the same group. a real reason why they are destructive ot society. a reason why they would be better to society forced to live as pseudo heterosexuals, living lies their entire lives. why homosexuality is destructive to anyone if as its been proven, not contageous.

what are you basing your opinion on besides fear and religion? after all, the AMA and other professional medical organizations/experts find them benign, able to raise normal children etc. so science is certainly not on your side.

and in a world full of suffering, and one where no truthful person can pretend they know much at all, you feel arrogant enough
condemn other beings to suffering when they hurt no one. do you really pretend to know the mind of god?

comparing the desire to steal to the desire to love another person of a certain gender with every fiber of their being is just sad. do most people desire to steal on that level? a truely fundamental drive?

i am telling you that people are not born psychopaths. it is a learned behavior, one that is slowly conditioned into a persons psyche by inaction of those who are most influential to the 'future psychopath'. a person can turn off ones ability to feel any emotion, so i dont believe that people are 'born without the ability to empathize with their victim'. have you never heard the phrase 'mind over matter'? it is very relevant and very true.

yes, people are born retarded, but that is genetic. homosexuality however, is not. yes, some people have chemical imbalances in their brains, that is a bodily malfunction. homosexuality however, is not. 'gender identity disorder' is fraudulent IMO. it is an escape for a very insecure person to cling to so they can easily bring some sense of normalcy into their lives instead of living up to the harsh reality of the world. so, no, i dont believe that genetic factors play that big of a role in human conditioning [unless its something debilitating, like mental retardation, in which case, you really cannot condition the person one way or the other.] my argument is that homosexuality is a result from conditioning.

i place murderers, rapists, thievs, and homosexuals because they are: immoral, against the natural order of life, and are slowly destroying society from the inside.

i am neither afraid of homosexuals nor am i basing my argument on religion. is it hard for you to believe that i look down upon the act and not the person? i find same-sex relationships just as disgusting as i do what NAMBLA stands for.

i like how you accuse me of using religion to bolster my argument [making it look as though religion is not a good enough reason to disapprove of homosexuality] and then ask me if im 'arrogant' enough to know the mind of God!! hows this, to know the mind of God, go read the word of God. the word of God will give you little glimpses into the mind of God.

and no, comparing all forms of social misfits is not sad. trying to justify it using moral relativism is what is sad.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Bigots fill in the blanks with bigotry.

you do love to use the word 'bigot' dont you?

 

[0roo0roo]

i place murderers, rapists, thievs, and homosexuals because they are: immoral, against the natural order of life, and are slowly destroying society from the inside.

explain. you seem to like to keep your real objections vague for a reason. besides comparing them to rapists and murderers, your posts are empty.

immoral? why?

against the natural order of life? how?

destroying society from the inside? how?

i like how you accuse me of using religion to bolster my argument [making it look as though religion is not a good enough reason to disapprove of homosexuality] and then ask me if im 'arrogant' enough to know the mind of God!! hows this, to know the mind of God, go read the word of God. the word of God will give you little glimpses into the mind of God.

so, your opinion is really based upon a religious book. it is based on your interpretation, of which you are so confident that you would be willing to condemn others who of no harm to you. you are so confident you have the right religion, that you weren't simply born into the religion that you would arrogantly and recklessly impose your judgement. just remember, slavery, genocide, murder, war, etc were also justified by many through their own supposed glimpses into the mind of god.

and no, comparing all forms of social misfits is not sad. trying to justify it using moral relativism is what is sad.

trying to preserve the human rights and right to persue happiness of others is not moral relativism. its moral facism that seeks to impose ideas of faith and not reason upon all through government.

Originally posted by: Genesys
i guess it depends on how they grew up and what kind of childhood/adolescence they had. whatever happened to twist their mind to think that way, i suppose.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Bigots fill in the blanks with bigotry.

Originally posted by: Genesys
you do love to use the word 'bigot' dont you?

if the label fits.... your judgement is based on ignorance and fear.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

i place murderers, rapists, thievs, and homosexuals because they are: immoral, against the natural order of life, and are slowly destroying society from the inside.

explain. you seem to like to keep your real objections vague for a reason. besides comparing them to rapists and murderers, your posts are empty.

immoral? why?

against the natural order of life? how?

destroying society from the inside? how?

i like how you accuse me of using religion to bolster my argument [making it look as though religion is not a good enough reason to disapprove of homosexuality] and then ask me if im 'arrogant' enough to know the mind of God!! hows this, to know the mind of God, go read the word of God. the word of God will give you little glimpses into the mind of God.

so, your opinion is really based upon a religious book. it is based on your interpretation, of which you are so confident that you would be willing to condemn others who of no harm to you. you are so confident you have the right religion, that you weren't simply born into the religion that you would arrogantly and recklessly impose your judgement. just remember, slavery, genocide, murder, war, etc were also justified by many through their own supposed glimpses into the mind of god.

and no, comparing all forms of social misfits is not sad. trying to justify it using moral relativism is what is sad.

trying to preserve the human rights and right to persue happiness of others is not moral relativism. its moral facism that seeks to impose ideas of faith and not reason upon all through government.

Originally posted by: Genesys
i guess it depends on how they grew up and what kind of childhood/adolescence they had. whatever happened to twist their mind to think that way, i suppose.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Bigots fill in the blanks with bigotry.

Originally posted by: Genesys
you do love to use the word 'bigot' dont you?

if the label fits.... your judgement is based on ignorance and fear.

Yup, a bigot deserves his title and the self recognition that that is what he is. Not much point in changing your viewpoint, is there, unless you know you're sick.

 

[Pandaren]

Originally posted by: Genesys

in the very first post you see a quote from a guy who says he doesnt want his kids to grow up normal like himself and his grandfather. so is corrupting a kids mind not destructive enough for you? think about a parent who has to explain what homosexuality is to their young child. what do you do?

How is learning about gay people 'corrupting' kids. I learned that there were gay people when I was in elementary school. Two of the teachers in my school were gay. None of this 'corrupted' me or turned me into a homosexual.

think about the divide this country is faceing because of this issue. you already have people that act out violently against gays and their silly 'rights' parades. hows that for destructive? did you know that domesetic abuse is higher in lesbian relationships than in gay [male] or hetero relationships? is that a destructive force in society? what if the violent lesbians have a child?

Think about the divide this country faced over Black people and civil rights. What about lynchings, church bombings, and shootings of Civil Rights activists. Should we not have pursued the formation of a more just society just because there would be more riots or more KKK running around trying to keep the status quo? Where are your statistics for 'domestic abuse'? Your generalizations are ridiculous.

other than saying that murder, rape, and theft are outwardly destructive to society, tell me why i shouldnt compare them to homosexuality

The fact that homosexual relationships in themselves do not harm other people is the important distinction. That is the single important distinction between homosexual activity (and most other activities) and violent crime.

Basically your argument comes down to this: You believe that homosexuality is a learned orientation, and that because your God has said it is sinful, it is sinful.

I wrote:

We lock up compulsive murderers and theives because they cause material and unjust harm to others. A gay person choosing to pursue their compulsion with like a like minded gay person causes no such material harm to other persons. This is a point that anti-gay people fail to address time and time again

You responded by saying harm would be caused by other people who would act out violently against gays. It is utterly ridiculous that you shift the burden of restraint from violence from violently anti-gay persons to gay people who haven't done anything wrong.

A politician of decades past might have similarly said: "we shouldn't permit Blacks to have civil rights. This issue is tearing our country apart and this movement is going to incite all sorts of violence in white people!"

Shamful burden shifting and denial of responsibility is what your counter argument is, Genesys.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
I have no problem with gay people. I have a problem with stupid people who get their sexuality in everyone's face. I mean gay flags, gay parades, gay bumper stickers, gay clubs in school. Frankly when I am driving, I don't want to know that the guy in front of me is a fruit. Or walking down the street, I don't want to see gay flags flying around like in West Hollywood. It's a private sexual matter, and should be treated like such. Like in school there are gay lesbian transgender clubs. Should we have a 69 or threesome club in schools too? How about golden showers, bestiality, or S&M club in highschool? I mean there is a club dedicated to one sexual prefference, why not all?

Exactly, it's the same as putting a piece of cloth on your head whether it be a skull cap or a full towel. The same as wearing a cross around the neck, etc. It is OFFENSIVE to see any of this crap in public.

Everything must be BANNED and ILLEGAL, must be Marshall LAW and NANNY State for enforcement Worldwide.

Hitler, Milosavic, Hussein etc etc were only partially right, must Gas em all. Must Cleanse the World!