NYT Documents Voting Shifts In 2008

[yowolabi]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Tab
So, the American public elects a obvious left-leaning individual but the American public isn't moving left it's just because McCain ran a poor campaign, the economy was in rough shape, ACORN stole the votes, blah blah blah

No wonder you lost this election...

Obama didn't run on a leftist platform.

Really, in this thread you said,

Where do you get that from because last I checked, Obama had one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate. Also, like i said earlier, I dont see Obama going around speaking about ending gridlock in Washington. I hear him going around saying he is going to pull our troops out of Iraq, along with many other liberal policies. Those aren't exactly policies that "unite" politicians.

Are you going to telll Corbett that he's wrong, or should I?

 

[Mani]

The only people claiming this country is "center-right" are republican. They of course never have any evidence to back this claim up. We just elected a very liberal president by almost-landslide margins. I'd say it's a mandate for the left and shows that the right wing is just about irrelevant in its current form.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: mugs
You've said this a few times, but I haven't see you explain why this is evidence of a shift in the political persuasions of Americans and not backlash against Bush. The magnitude of the shifts would indicate to me that it's backlash against Bush - I would expect an actual shift to happen more gradually. The senators and representatives who were elected were riding Obama's coattails.

Obamas policies are left leaning, but he is seen as a centrist because the country has shifted left.

Keep dreaming. Obama is seen as a centrist because his campaign was run centrist. For the country to shift so far to the left that Obama's previous stances are considered centrist would be unheard of in our country.

Obamas policies are left policies. If a dem candidate had ran on these policies in the late 80's, early 90's he would have been called a socialist/marxist...

oh wait, Obama was and the people still elected him. Face it, the country shifted left. There is nothing "centrist" about his postions at all in respect to previous candidates/politicians. He is distinctively left in comparison to pass administrations, but is centrist overall due to a ideological shift in American thinking. (Socialized Healthcare, bigger welfare safety nets wanted, alright with nationalizing major institutions, ok with government intervention in markerts, a rejection of some basic conservatism social values (though still work to be done here). The country shifted left, this election shows that. If Obama follows through on even half of his promises the shift will be permanent.

A lot of his campaign policies are centrist are you kidding me? No gay marriage, his tax plan to lower taxes is a centrist move, his health care plan is a middle ground approach, not leftist by any means, moving corporate tax rates lower, getting private entities involved with public projects ect are all moved to the center.

Now if he follows through on those things is another story. But his campaign moved to the center and it showed. He runs with a UHC, govt take everything tax your eyes out approach and he loses.

most of this was framed as being 'radically left'

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Mani
The only people claiming this country is "center-right" are republican. They of course never have any evidence to back this claim up. We just elected a very liberal president by almost-landslide margins. I'd say it's a mandate for the left and shows that the right wing is just about irrelevant in its current form.

8 years of reagan, 4 years of bush, 8 years of bill clinton running on a center-right platform, and 8 years of dubya = this country is center-right.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Tab
So, the American public elects a obvious left-leaning individual but the American public isn't moving left it's just because McCain ran a poor campaign, the economy was in rough shape, ACORN stole the votes, blah blah blah

No wonder you lost this election...

Obama didn't run on a leftist platform.

Oh, I see he's actually a wolf in sheep's clothing... :roll:

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The country shifted away from the GOP and decided to let the Dems have a swing at it. Don't confuse that with people actually shifting their political beliefs though. As Mugs said, this election was a backlash against Bush and the GOP, primarily inspired by a relatively recently foundering economy. It doesn't seem in any way, shape, or form to be a shift in political ideology. If the country were truly going center-left then many of those Gay Marriage Amendments wouldn't have passed. Many did.

so you are saying that people categorically voted against a group of politicians with a common ideology, but still like that ideology? (assuming they ever actually did?)

I think you are underestimating this at least as much as others in this thread overestimating.

Politics in the country had been made more conservative than the actual electorate thanks to wedge issues for a generation. Now you are seeing a slight shift left and perhaps a new equilibrium slightly to the left of the electorate.

Public opinion hasn't shifted much on those wedge issues over the recent years. It surely hasn't shifted nearly enough recently to reflect the shift in voting for this election. Additionally, opinion on the wedge issues has been painfully and slowly creeping to the left over decades, as it nearly always does, though that movement is nearly imperceptable in the short run. So how does that align with the electorate becoming more conservative over the last generation? imo, they have become more liberal, but not by any truly meaningful margin.

The mistake some people seem to be making is believing that if a person voted for Obama that they must be onboard with his platform and behind his ideological agenda. I don't believe that to be the case. Many voters were just sicker than shit of the GOP and decided it was time for a change, any change. Obama was a choice they could live with, even if he did go against some of their beliefs. It's not as if the GOP today truly followed many conservative values anyway.

perhaps instead of politics i should have said governance.

To clarify, i meant that the country has been governed from a more rightward manner than people would generally prefer.

To expand on it a bit, after Johnson people realigned republican, but as the populous slowly liberalized, those people kept voting republican out of habit and identification and various wedge issues. this cycle, the damn appears to have broken, are realigned around a center-left coalition.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Mani
The only people claiming this country is "center-right" are republican. They of course never have any evidence to back this claim up. We just elected a very liberal president by almost-landslide margins. I'd say it's a mandate for the left and shows that the right wing is just about irrelevant in its current form.

there was a center-right coalition particularly in national politics, meaning that centrists had allied with conservatives to govern the country. Unfortunately for the right, they miss evaluated the situation, and are busy surrendering the center.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Mani
The only people claiming this country is "center-right" are republican. They of course never have any evidence to back this claim up. We just elected a very liberal president by almost-landslide margins. I'd say it's a mandate for the left and shows that the right wing is just about irrelevant in its current form.

8 years of reagan, 4 years of bush, 8 years of bill clinton running on a center-right platform, and 8 years of dubya = this country is center-right.

You make the mistake of thinking Bush won on his platform. Bush won on a superior GOTV effort by the absolute slimmest of margins. In 2000, he didn't even have the popular vote. Also, Clinton absolutely did NOT run on a center-right platform, but did enjoy some of the highest approval ratings in history during his presidency while Bush has the lowest.

If you were to do an issue-by-issue examination of the country's views, it would be to the left of center. The advantage the republicans have had historically is that their constituencies (older voters and evangelicals) are as reliable as any voter blocs can be. Didn't hurt to have Katherine Harris and Ken Blackwell either.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Mani
The only people claiming this country is "center-right" are republican. They of course never have any evidence to back this claim up. We just elected a very liberal president by almost-landslide margins. I'd say it's a mandate for the left and shows that the right wing is just about irrelevant in its current form.

8 years of reagan, 4 years of bush, 8 years of bill clinton running on a center-right platform, and 8 years of dubya = this country is center-right.

center-right coalition =/= center right country. Odds are that we are seing a new center-left coalition,

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Mani
The only people claiming this country is "center-right" are republican. They of course never have any evidence to back this claim up. We just elected a very liberal president by almost-landslide margins. I'd say it's a mandate for the left and shows that the right wing is just about irrelevant in its current form.

8 years of reagan, 4 years of bush, 8 years of bill clinton running on a center-right platform, and 8 years of dubya = this country is center-right.

You make the mistake of thinking Bush won on his platform. Bush won on a superior GOTV effort by the absolute slimmest of margins. In 2000, he didn't even have the popular vote. Also, Clinton absolutely did NOT run on a center-right platform, but did enjoy some of the highest approval ratings in history during his presidency while Bush has the lowest.

If you were to do an issue-by-issue examination of the country's views, it would be to the left of center. The advantage the republicans have had historically is that their constituencies (older voters and evangelicals) are as reliable as any voter blocs can be. Didn't hurt to have Katherine Harris and Ken Blackwell either.

Bush II might not have, but Reagan clearly won on his platform. So did the Congress of 1994.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Mani
The only people claiming this country is "center-right" are republican. They of course never have any evidence to back this claim up. We just elected a very liberal president by almost-landslide margins. I'd say it's a mandate for the left and shows that the right wing is just about irrelevant in its current form.

8 years of reagan, 4 years of bush, 8 years of bill clinton running on a center-right platform, and 8 years of dubya = this country is center-right.

You make the mistake of thinking Bush won on his platform. Bush won on a superior GOTV effort by the absolute slimmest of margins. In 2000, he didn't even have the popular vote. Also, Clinton absolutely did NOT run on a center-right platform, but did enjoy some of the highest approval ratings in history during his presidency while Bush has the lowest.

If you were to do an issue-by-issue examination of the country's views, it would be to the left of center. The advantage the republicans have had historically is that their constituencies (older voters and evangelicals) are as reliable as any voter blocs can be. Didn't hurt to have Katherine Harris and Ken Blackwell either.

Bush II might not have, but Reagan clearly won on his platform.

Agree, but Reagan last won 24 years ago. I don't think that's at all relevant to the discussion of whether we are a center-right country today.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Mani
The only people claiming this country is "center-right" are republican. They of course never have any evidence to back this claim up. We just elected a very liberal president by almost-landslide margins. I'd say it's a mandate for the left and shows that the right wing is just about irrelevant in its current form.

8 years of reagan, 4 years of bush, 8 years of bill clinton running on a center-right platform, and 8 years of dubya = this country is center-right.

You make the mistake of thinking Bush won on his platform. Bush won on a superior GOTV effort by the absolute slimmest of margins. In 2000, he didn't even have the popular vote. Also, Clinton absolutely did NOT run on a center-right platform, but did enjoy some of the highest approval ratings in history during his presidency while Bush has the lowest.

If you were to do an issue-by-issue examination of the country's views, it would be to the left of center. The advantage the republicans have had historically is that their constituencies (older voters and evangelicals) are as reliable as any voter blocs can be. Didn't hurt to have Katherine Harris and Ken Blackwell either.

Bush II might not have, but Reagan clearly won on his platform. So did the Congress of 1994.

reagan won on a bad economy, and the fact that that carter had been elected mainly as a reaction to nixon/ford, and foreign policy problems in regards to Iran.


sounds alot like obama tbh.


anyways about half the people that voted for reagan in 1980 are dead now.

 

[jpeyton]

:laugh:

I have to continue laughing at the people in denial.

Obama's overwhelming victory isn't the only sign.

Look at Warner's victory in VA, Hagan's victory in NC...both center-left individuals who won big victories in ruby red states.

And the blue states, like my home state of Oregon, just tossed out a 12 year, well-liked, moderate Republican senator for a left-leaning one.

2010 might be Custer's Last Stand for the GOP as we know it. Will they try to adapt before then?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: winnar111
We will see. Lyndon Johnson's victory in 1964 led to the end of leftwinged policies for the next 40 years. Who knows whether that's happening again or not.

Cleaning up after another of your messes:

What ended liberal presidents for 40 years was the 'Southern strategy'. Pure and simple.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: winnar111
Bush II might not have, but Reagan clearly won on his platform. So did the Congress of 1994.

reagan won on a bad economy, and the fact that that carter had been elected mainly as a reaction to nixon/ford, and foreign policy problems in regards to Iran.


sounds alot like obama tbh.


anyways about half the people that voted for reagan in 1980 are dead now.

I don't think that's a fair assessment. Reagan won a much larger victory than Obama has. He had a clearly different vision, enacted most of it, and got re-elected with an even larger victory.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: winnar111
We will see. Lyndon Johnson's victory in 1964 led to the end of leftwinged policies for the next 40 years. Who knows whether that's happening again or not.

Cleaning up after another of your messes:

What ended liberal presidents for 40 years was the 'Southern strategy'. Pure and simple.

Right. :roll:

That's why Nixon, Reagan, and Bush I all won significant numbers of states in the North, and all won California.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
perhaps instead of politics i should have said governance.

To clarify, i meant that the country has been governed from a more rightward manner than people would generally prefer.

To expand on it a bit, after Johnson people realigned republican, but as the populous slowly liberalized, those people kept voting republican out of habit and identification and various wedge issues. this cycle, the damn appears to have broken, are realigned around a center-left coalition.

After Johnson came Nixon, which caused people to vote for Carter. It was one of the few elections where people didn't cast their vote based on economic conditions. The economy floundered under Carter, they voted Reagan. The economy improved quite drastically under Reagon and, despite the prevalence of right-wing conservatism, men could even wear pastel pink shirts. Dukakis ran a poor campaign so Mr. 1000 points of light was elected but the economy faltered once again and Clinton was elected. The economy revved up again until right near the end of Clinton's 8 years, so GWB was elected. The economy failed the last 2 years and now we have Obama.

It'd be tough to claim that the electorate swung to the left, back to the right, back to the left, back to the right, back to the left, back to the right, and now back to the left again. I think it's a huge mistake to imagine that a president's political ideologies are any reflection of the electorate's beliefs as a whole. The correlation just doesn't stand up.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

The country has not shifted center-left. They've shifted away from the current GOP and their style of politics but they are by no means completely sold on this current Democratic party. For many, Obama was the lesser of two evils.

A fundamental shift in the politics of this country will require good leadership from Obama and a truly centrist approach. If he succeeds a lot of moderate Republicans and conservative Independents will probably come onboard. The GOP has some major soul-searching to do, their slash-n-burn politics worked in '04 but clearly it will not work again.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
perhaps instead of politics i should have said governance.

To clarify, i meant that the country has been governed from a more rightward manner than people would generally prefer.

To expand on it a bit, after Johnson people realigned republican, but as the populous slowly liberalized, those people kept voting republican out of habit and identification and various wedge issues. this cycle, the damn appears to have broken, are realigned around a center-left coalition.

After Johnson came Nixon, which caused people to vote for Carter. It was one of the few elections where people didn't cast their vote based on economic conditions. The economy floundered under Carter, they voted Reagan. The economy improved quite drastically under Reagon and, despite the prevalence of right-wing conservatism, men could even wear pastel pink shirts. Dukakis ran a poor campaign so Mr. 1000 points of light was elected but the economy faltered once again and Clinton was elected. The economy revved up again until right near the end of Clinton's 8 years, so GWB was elected. The economy failed the last 2 years and now we have Obama.

It'd be tough to claim that the electorate swung to the left, back to the right, back to the left, back to the right, back to the left, back to the right, and now back to the left again. I think it's a huge mistake to imagine that a president's political ideologies are any reflection of the electorate's beliefs as a whole. The correlation just doesn't stand up.

i haven't said any remotely near what you just said.

A center right coaltion means that centrists and conservatives, making up less that a majority to rule, get together and govern as a center/right coalition. The outgoing center/right national coalition emerged as a response to Vietnam and the cultural revolution. Carter was elected narrowly as a southern reaction to the watergate disaster, clinton was elected in large part because of ross perot splitting conservatives.

 

[Farang]

Consider also that these states were the ones courted by the Obama campaign because he had money and ignored by McCain because he didn't.

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: yowolabi

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Tab
So, the American public elects a obvious left-leaning individual but the American public isn't moving left it's just because McCain ran a poor campaign, the economy was in rough shape, ACORN stole the votes, blah blah blah

No wonder you lost this election...

Obama didn't run on a leftist platform.

Really, in this thread you said,

Where do you get that from because last I checked, Obama had one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate. Also, like i said earlier, I dont see Obama going around speaking about ending gridlock in Washington. I hear him going around saying he is going to pull our troops out of Iraq, along with many other liberal policies. Those aren't exactly policies that "unite" politicians.

Are you going to telll Corbett that he's wrong, or should I?

Do you have any idea how much Obama changed his platform since January? After the nomination the guy started talking about tax cuts, cutting spending and getting out of Iraq in a responsible manner. Not exactly "liberal" ideas.

 

[counterstrikedude]

Originally posted by: syzygy
Would this be polling the same public that had Bush at 70%-80% following the Iraq invasion ?

Obama-mania is pathological with this one . . . baaaa.

shhh...dont spoil it.

the less jpeyton knows, the harder he'll fall when the time comes.

i await for the future.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: yowolabi

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Tab
So, the American public elects a obvious left-leaning individual but the American public isn't moving left it's just because McCain ran a poor campaign, the economy was in rough shape, ACORN stole the votes, blah blah blah

No wonder you lost this election...

Obama didn't run on a leftist platform.

Really, in this thread you said,

Where do you get that from because last I checked, Obama had one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate. Also, like i said earlier, I dont see Obama going around speaking about ending gridlock in Washington. I hear him going around saying he is going to pull our troops out of Iraq, along with many other liberal policies. Those aren't exactly policies that "unite" politicians.

Are you going to telll Corbett that he's wrong, or should I?

Do you have any idea how much Obama changed his platform since January? After the nomination the guy started talking about tax cuts, cutting spending and getting out of Iraq in a responsible manner. Not exactly "liberal" ideas.

/facepalm

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: yowolabi

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Tab
So, the American public elects a obvious left-leaning individual but the American public isn't moving left it's just because McCain ran a poor campaign, the economy was in rough shape, ACORN stole the votes, blah blah blah

No wonder you lost this election...

Obama didn't run on a leftist platform.

Really, in this thread you said,

Where do you get that from because last I checked, Obama had one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate. Also, like i said earlier, I dont see Obama going around speaking about ending gridlock in Washington. I hear him going around saying he is going to pull our troops out of Iraq, along with many other liberal policies. Those aren't exactly policies that "unite" politicians.

Are you going to telll Corbett that he's wrong, or should I?

Do you have any idea how much Obama changed his platform since January? After the nomination the guy started talking about tax cuts, cutting spending and getting out of Iraq in a responsible manner. Not exactly "liberal" ideas.

/facepalm

Getting out of Iraq immediately is a liberal idea.

Getting out of Iraq in a responsible manner is a moderate idea.

You obviously don't know the difference between the two, nor realize that Obama went from promising to do one of them to promising to do the other.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
i haven't said any remotely near what you just said.

A center right coaltion means that centrists and conservatives, making up less that a majority to rule, get together and govern as a center/right coalition. The outgoing center/right national coalition emerged as a response to Vietnam and the cultural revolution. Carter was elected narrowly as a southern reaction to the watergate disaster, clinton was elected in large part because of ross perot splitting conservatives.

I'm trying to make sense of that, but can't.

And Perot pretty much evenly split his share of the vote from between Bush 1 and Clinton. Clinton won by @ 5% of the vote. Perot's influence, or lack thereof, still wouldn't have changed that outcome.