NY times calls for criminal prosecution of Cheney and others.

[Hayabusa Rider]

I hope I'm wrong on this one but as the NYT points out Obama has studiously avoided accountability for action. Now however the recent report on torture leaves little to the imagination as to what happened. The ACLU and Human Rights Watch will be giving Holder a letter calling for a special prosecutor to look into criminal abuse.

What I wonder is how Obama will respond to this if at all. So far it's been "let's not dwell in the past but look forward", which is blithering nonsense.

So will the DOJ and the President actually do something concrete or will it be more dissembling?

I see no reason to trust but in light of the report he'll not so easily escape criticism from some of those who supported him.

So what's going to really happen?

Link to NYT piece.

 

[theeedude]

This would have been a courageous stance, in 2006.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
So what's going to really happen?

Nothing of substance IMO.

This is the 'age of lawyers' and from what I've seen there is sufficient subjectivity in the definition of torture for all types of disagreement.

And does anyone really believe other govts and their SS agencies don't engage in similar activities?

Does Obama really want to spend his last 2 yrs embroiled in this?

I see a stage for a lot sanctimonious speeches by UN types and enemies like Iran. I.e., hot air and no action.

Fern

 

[shady28]

This would have been a courageous stance, in 2006.

This ^^^^


They won't do anything right now in the same way republicans won't do anything about Obama breaking the law with the prisoner exchange, immigration, etc.

Nobody wants to rock the boat, more importantly no one wants to be seen as rocking the boat. Last time it was tried was when we had a married 55 year old sitting president getting blowjobs from a 20 year old intern in the oval office. When that backfired on the republicans, ethics and accountability just went right out the window. The american people won't stand for a boat rocker...

 

[Brainonska511]

And does anyone really believe other govts and their SS agencies don't engage in similar activities?

So? Two wrongs don't make a right.

This is the 'age of lawyers' and from what I've seen there is sufficient subjectivity in the definition of torture for all types of disagreement.

There only seems to be sufficient subjectivity for people that want to play weasel-words.

They should prosecute people for ordering and executing these heinous crimes, but I'm not hopeful that they will bring any indictments against the people that tortured or the ones that ordered/approved it.

 

[Subyman]

IMO, we can't charge them. If we did then we could get into a retaliatorial pissing match between the parties where each president will be looking to dig up dirt on the previous president and their administration in an attempt to file charges for something. It is a strange situation.

 

[boomerang]

Nothing is going to happen. Everyone in D.C. signed off on it that needed to. Everyone was briefed and it was passed upon as being legal at that time. The NY times is just being the NY times whose primary goal is to generate revenue. Much ado about something that will amount to nothing.

Any regime that tries to hang a previous regime opens themselves up to the same scrutiny. It's going nowhere. Merry Christmas from the NY Times! Surf's up on Oahu bruddahs!

 

[sandorski]

Should happen, probably won't.

 

[BoberFett]

Does this call for accountability include members of the current administration when it comes to light that we are still torturing people today and the White House knows full well it's going on?

Ha, no, there won't be any accountability. It's professional courtesy.

 

[MongGrel]

Should happen, probably won't.

This.

 

[Fern]

So? Two wrongs don't make a right.

That's not my point.

I suspect the world community will be reluctant to get onboard as many would be throwing rocks while living in a glass house.

Edit: Wanted to add that the CIA etc. continues to claim that Pelosi etc. WERE FULLY BRIEFED. They claim they weren't. Does anybody think they want to see that litigated in court? Will it be embarrassing for them? Possibly career ending?

There only seems to be sufficient subjectivity for people that want to play weasel-words.

And govts and politicians don't play "weasel words" nonstop these days?

Are we at war in Syria?

Did Obama actually claim Benghazi was a terrorist act? Remember, he mumbled the word "terrorism" in a rambling statement in the Rose garden one day. Doesn't that count? Ask Candy Crowley.

"We need to pass it so you can see what's in it"? How g@d damn many weasel word games have been played with that?

Likewise "If have a business, you didn't build that business".

Jeebus, the non-stop engaging in weasel word games has been upon us since Bill Clinton's famous "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

Fern

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Jeebus, the non-stop engaging in weasel word games has been upon us since Bill Clinton's famous "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

The non-stop engaging in weasel word games has been with us since language was invented; it's just getting a lot harder for the people in power to hide their bullshit. It's still impossible to actually hold them accountable for their bullshit, but at least we realize it's bullshit. Maybe in another couple hundred generations we'll figure out how to punish the power-hungry assholes that lack all empathy and compassion, or at least not reward them by giving them the most lavish existence of anyone in history. Probably not, but we can dream...

 

[Zorkorist]

Each and every American should be saying to themselves, "there, but for the grace of God, go I."

It used to be that we couldn't imagine Government, let alone Regulation.

Now, we are ignoring torture.

-John

 

[trenchfoot]

Bottom line take on Bush/Cheney: Never EVER vote to the highest offices of gov't two businessmen who come from the class of the very wealthy and privileged and who are neocons who then appoint more neocons who have a long denied and passionate desire to forward their neocon world-wide agenda. The mix of those two factors are at the root of why Bush/Cheney did what they did and how they did it.

These two assholes, being from the privileged class, were used to having things their way and they were more than willing to cause the deaths of thousands, both from our own precious military and those of our perceived enemies to have things their way. Simultaneously cutting taxes for the rich and then starting two wars doesn't make any sense at all but it's what these two saw as being beneficial for themselves and their big business handlers. When viewed from that perspective then it made a whole lot of sense.

These two criminals took control of our intelligence services and got rid of any who crossed their paths and put in place or promoted those who would yield to their bidding to get the "evidence" they needed to execute their game plan.

It's how things get done in the world of high-stakes business and it's the "business" model these two brought to bear to run our government the way they could best exploit it for their personal benefit and for those of whom were personally associated with them.

It's perfectly obvious these two guys and their cronies should be charged with international crimes and crimes against the gov't (the people) for exploiting their positions in gov't office for personal gain, and crimes against the gov't (the people) for needlessly causing the deaths and maiming of untold thousands of our military service members and innocents caught up in the monumental strife these two perpetrated against humanity.

I could go on and on with how these two guys caused the deaths and ruination of the lives of so many to enrich the lives of so few.

Sickening, really.

 

[Zorkorist]

This isn't an indictment of Bush, or Cheney, but rather an indictment of our Government, a system that can allow, enforce, enact such a thing as torture.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

The only fight against it, is to fight to reduce Government's powers (not expand them with ObamaCare, etc.)

Fight for your freedom.

Fight to not get woken up in the middle of the night by the police.

Fight to not have to show your papers, to the corner party member.

"Papers please."

-John

 

[Brainonska511]

This isn't an indictment of Bush, or Cheney, but rather an indictment of our Government, a system that can allow, enforce, enact such a thing as torture.

-John

A government for the people, by the people.

The only reason they can get away with it is because we let them (eg: by electing people that allow it or don't reign in the bad behavior).

 

[werepossum]

Does this call for accountability include members of the current administration when it comes to light that we are still torturing people today and the White House knows full well it's going on?

Ha, no, there won't be any accountability. It's professional courtesy.

Exactly.

The non-stop engaging in weasel word games has been with us since language was invented; it's just getting a lot harder for the people in power to hide their bullshit. It's still impossible to actually hold them accountable for their bullshit, but at least we realize it's bullshit. Maybe in another couple hundred generations we'll figure out how to punish the power-hungry assholes that lack all empathy and compassion, or at least not reward them by giving them the most lavish existence of anyone in history. Probably not, but we can dream...

Is it actually getting a lot harder for them to hide their bullshit, or that they no longer feel the need to try hiding it?

Bottom line take on Bush/Cheney: Never EVER vote to the highest offices of gov't two businessmen who come from the class of the very wealthy and privileged and who are neocons who then appoint more neocons who have a long denied and passionate desire to forward their neocon world-wide agenda. The mix of those two factors are at the root of why Bush/Cheney did what they did and how they did it.

These two assholes, being from the privileged class, were used to having things their way and they were more than willing to cause the deaths of thousands, both from our own precious military and those of our perceived enemies to have things their way. Simultaneously cutting taxes for the rich and then starting two wars doesn't make any sense at all but it's what these two saw as being beneficial for themselves and their big business handlers. When viewed from that perspective then it made a whole lot of sense.

These two criminals took control of our intelligence services and got rid of any who crossed their paths and put in place or promoted those who would yield to their bidding to get the "evidence" they needed to execute their game plan.

It's how things get done in the world of high-stakes business and it's the "business" model these two brought to bear to run our government the way they could best exploit it for their personal benefit and for those of whom were personally associated with them.

It's perfectly obvious these two guys and their cronies should be charged with international crimes and crimes against the gov't (the people) for exploiting their positions in gov't office for personal gain, and crimes against the gov't (the people) for needlessly causing the deaths and maiming of untold thousands of our military service members and innocents caught up in the monumental strife these two perpetrated against humanity.

I could go on and on with how these two guys caused the deaths and ruination of the lives of so many to enrich the lives of so few.

Sickening, really.

Lol Yeah, we should just elect a community organizer. That couldn't possibly go wrong.

 

[shira]

Nothing of substance IMO.

This is the 'age of lawyers' and from what I've seen there is sufficient subjectivity in the definition of torture for all types of disagreement.

And does anyone really believe other govts and their SS agencies don't engage in similar activities?

Does Obama really want to spend his last 2 yrs embroiled in this?

I see a stage for a lot sanctimonious speeches by UN types and enemies like Iran. I.e., hot air and no action.

Fern

You're wrong. After World War II, the chief prosecutor for the International Military Tribunal for the Far East (IMTFE) was American Joseph Keenan, appointed by Harry Truman. Several Japanese soldiers were prosecuted and convicted of "Class B" and "Class C" war crimes for engaging in water-boarding of American soldiers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...rosecute-japanese-soldiers-for-waterboarding/

But as [Evan] Wallach [author of "Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts"] makes clear, Japanese soldiers other than the Class A war criminals were also prosecuted for mistreatment of American prisoners—and water torture “loomed large in the evidence presented against them.” For instance, at the Yokohama Class B and C War Crimes Trials in 1947, Yukio Asano, an interpreter, faced a charge of violating “the laws and customs of war” through these specific acts:

Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him, by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.

Specification 2: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O. Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War, by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses, and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.

Specification 5. That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him, and by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose.

Asanao was sentenced to 15 years confinement at hard labor.

First Lt. Seitara Hata, Sgt. Major Takeo Kita and Sgt. Hideji Nakamura faced similar charges.

Hata received 25 years of hard labor, Nakamura 20 years and Kita 15 years.

In other words, the U.S. thought that waterboarding was torture when it was performed on U.S. soldiers in WWII, and they prosecuted those who practiced it as war criminals. Are you claiming that the U.S. can define a double standard, where waterboarding perpetrated against Americans is torture, worthy of prosecution; but waterboarding performed BY Americans isn't torture?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Is it actually getting a lot harder for them to hide their bullshit, or that they no longer feel the need to try hiding it?

I think it's gotten virtually impossible for anyone to hide anything. We have the internet now, which is a way to instantaneously get information out to a massive audience, and as soon as it's out, it's impossible to stop from spreading. You can no longer stop the truth from coming out. But it turns out that even when the truth does come out, the system is still set up to favor the people who are in power, and since the rest of us are comfortable enough to not want revolution, we're content to let the status quo keep right on going. We're mad as hell, or at least slightly peeved, but, fuck it, Dancing with the Stars is on.

 

[Brovane]

So? Two wrongs don't make a right.There only seems to be sufficient subjectivity for people that want to play weasel-words.

They should prosecute people for ordering and executing these heinous crimes, but I'm not hopeful that they will bring any indictments against the people that tortured or the ones that ordered/approved it.

 

[Zorkorist]

Good post, Shira.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

I think it's gotten virtually impossible for anyone to hide anything. We have the internet now, which is a way to instantaneously get information out to a massive audience, and as soon as it's out, it's impossible to stop from spreading. You can no longer stop the truth from coming out. But it turns out that even when the truth does come out, the system is still set up to favor the people who are in power, and since the rest of us are comfortable enough to not want revolution, we're content to let the status quo keep right on going. We're mad as hell, or at least slightly peeved, but, fuck it, Dancing with the Stars is on.

Good post, Atomic Playboy.

-John

 

[trenchfoot]

Exactly.


Is it actually getting a lot harder for them to hide their bullshit, or that they no longer feel the need to try hiding it?


Lol Yeah, we should just elect a community organizer. That couldn't possibly go wrong.

OK, ya got me good with that one. Ouch!.. :thumbsup:

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Bottom line take on Bush/Cheney: Never EVER vote to the highest offices of gov't two businessmen who come from the class of the very wealthy and privileged and who are neocons who then appoint more neocons who have a long denied and passionate desire to forward their neocon world-wide agenda. The mix of those two factors are at the root of why Bush/Cheney did what they did and how they did it.

These two assholes, being from the privileged class, were used to having things their way and they were more than willing to cause the deaths of thousands, both from our own precious military and those of our perceived enemies to have things their way. Simultaneously cutting taxes for the rich and then starting two wars doesn't make any sense at all but it's what these two saw as being beneficial for themselves and their big business handlers. When viewed from that perspective then it made a whole lot of sense.

These two criminals took control of our intelligence services and got rid of any who crossed their paths and put in place or promoted those who would yield to their bidding to get the "evidence" they needed to execute their game plan.

It's how things get done in the world of high-stakes business and it's the "business" model these two brought to bear to run our government the way they could best exploit it for their personal benefit and for those of whom were personally associated with them.

It's perfectly obvious these two guys and their cronies should be charged with international crimes and crimes against the gov't (the people) for exploiting their positions in gov't office for personal gain, and crimes against the gov't (the people) for needlessly causing the deaths and maiming of untold thousands of our military service members and innocents caught up in the monumental strife these two perpetrated against humanity.

I could go on and on with how these two guys caused the deaths and ruination of the lives of so many to enrich the lives of so few.

Sickening, really.

Great post.