NY State *passes* most restrictive weapons ban ever after being rushed to a vote.

[Matt1970]

One example isn't proof. You can show many examples of people dying while wearing seat belts, but it doesn't mean seat belts don't save lives.

Ok, can you show me one mass shooting that wouldn't have happened because of an assault weapons ban? People are not committing these crimes because of what is at thier disposal.

 

[HendrixFan]

Very different things. Owning certain types of firearms can now be illegal without even doing anything with them. You can't commit rape without actually raping.

Murder isn't illegal? I think that is probably the worst "crime with a gun" I can think of.

Sex is legal. Performing sex in a manner that is considered rape is illegal. Rape is still sex.

This bill doesn't make any firearm illegal. You just have to register it.

I don't know how you could be any more incorrect.

 

[mect]

I could make a claim that if there were no guns in the US there would be no gun murders in the US. I could make a claim that muskets, which were authorized by the Constitution can't be used to kill hundreds of people in a short space of time by a single mad man.

Yeah, you can claim a lot of things.

 

[HendrixFan]

Ok, can you show me one mass shooting that wouldn't have happened because of an assault weapons ban? People are not committing these crimes because of what is at thier disposal.

I have already stated this doesn't fix statistical anomalies like mass shootings. It helps alleviate the real problem, which is the absurdly high gun crime and gun death rates we have.

 

[Doppel]

No. Heller refers to types of weapons, not specific models. You are wrong.

Next?

So is it in compliance with that ruling then to allow use of "rifles" but then specifically ban all of them by model?

ShintaiDK your interpretation of the 2nd is common. And it isn't easy to even say it is wrong. However it ISN'T in concert with supreme fort rulings, which separate fun ownership out from only being part of a militia.

 

[momeNt]

Murder isn't illegal? I think that is probably the worst "crime with a gun" I can think of.

Sex is legal. Performing sex in a manner that is considered rape is illegal. Rape is still sex.

This bill doesn't make any firearm illegal. You just have to register it.

I don't know how you could be any more incorrect.

Not sure how you interpreted what I said. Owning a high capacity magazine after one year from the enforcement of this bill will mean that you are breaking the law. That's completely different than making rape illegal.

 

[Matt1970]

People who rape are unconcerned about rape laws. Why make rape illegal?

Well why aren't people saying that just making rape illegal will end rape? Or even make a dent in it like they think making certain magazines illeagl will.

What NY State is doing is the equivilent of banning large cars and trucks thinking it will reduce DWI deaths. The cars are not the problem just like the size of the Magazine is not the problem.

 

[fskimospy]

So is it in compliance with that ruling then to allow use of "rifles" but then specifically ban all of them by model?

ShintaiDK your interpretation of the 2nd is common. And it isn't easy to even say it is wrong. However it ISN'T in concert with supreme fort rulings, which separate fun ownership out from only being part of a militia.

No, because banning all of them by name instead of classification would be banning all of a class.

I'm simply saying that there is nothing in Heller that says you can't ban a certain model of gun.

 

[HendrixFan]

Not sure how you interpreted what I said. Owning a high capacity magazine after one year from the enforcement of this bill will mean that you are breaking the law. That's completely different than making rape illegal.

You argued the absurd notion that we shouldn't make things illegal because criminals won't care. Not me.

 

[HendrixFan]

Well why aren't people saying that just making rape illegal will end rape? Or even make a dent in it like they think making certain magazines illeagl will.

I think history and statistical data from all over the place and throughout the course of time will show that laws do steer behavior. Nobody tries to enslave black people anymore do they?

 

[momeNt]

You argued the absurd notion that we shouldn't make things illegal because criminals won't care. Not me.

Oh I think you have me mixed up with someone else. I simply would prefer to criminalize things that actually harm people, not create a criminal class of people who aren't harming others, ie. people peacefully owning a suitcase nuke.

 

[HendrixFan]

Oh I think you have me mixed up with someone else. I simply would prefer to criminalize things that actually harm people, not create a criminal class of people who aren't harming others, ie. people peacefully owning a suitcase nuke.

Seat belts laws save tons of lives. Not wearing one subjects you to a fine, and there was plenty of uproar years ago as states started requiring you actually wear them. This was well after the federal government mandated their inclusion in vehicles.

You can look at seat belts from a simplistic point of view and conclude that not wearing one doesn't actually harm anyone. Not in the "moment", no. You can also look at it from a simplistic point of view and conclude that if anyone is harmed, it is the person who chose not to wear one.

The impetus behind pushing seat belt laws was that without forcing people to use them, they didn't help to save lives. When I (theoretically) get into an accident with someone and it is my fault, that sucks. I pay the increased premiums and move on. When I get in that same accident that is my fault and the other driver isn't wearing a seat belt and dies, I have committed manslaughter.

Our society, exceptions aside, generally want things to be safer even if it means a small inconvenience like buckling up. Or switching out a magazine 40% more often.

 

[Matt1970]

I think history and statistical data from all over the place and throughout the course of time will show that laws do steer behavior. Nobody tries to enslave black people anymore do they?

It's already illegal to commit these mass murders, illegal to have the guns on school property, illegal to take the guns, that didn't steer behavior.

 

[HendrixFan]

It's already illegal to commit these mass murders, illegal to have the guns on school property, illegal to take the guns, that didn't steer behavior.

So why then do we no longer see slaves in the South?

 

[Fenixgoon]

Lower capacity magazines are not safer. If high capacity magazines were a problem, we'd be seeing 100rd double drum pistol mags used all over the place. Or 50, 60, 70,80rd rifle mags. And yet they're not. only enthusiasts get the truly high capacity magazines. Everything else (30rd on a rifle) is just standard, from the factory equipment. My pistol has 15rd mags. They're no more or less dangerous than 10rd mags.

 

[momeNt]

Seat belts laws save tons of lives. Not wearing one subjects you to a fine, and there was plenty of uproar years ago as states started requiring you actually wear them. This was well after the federal government mandated their inclusion in vehicles.

You can look at seat belts from a simplistic point of view and conclude that not wearing one doesn't actually harm anyone. Not in the "moment", no. You can also look at it from a simplistic point of view and conclude that if anyone is harmed, it is the person who chose not to wear one.

The impetus behind pushing seat belt laws was that without forcing people to use them, they didn't help to save lives. When I (theoretically) get into an accident with someone and it is my fault, that sucks. I pay the increased premiums and move on. When I get in that same accident that is my fault and the other driver isn't wearing a seat belt and dies, I have committed manslaughter.

Our society, exceptions aside, generally want things to be safer even if it means a small inconvenience like buckling up. Or switching out a magazine 40% more often.

That's actually not true depending on the comparative negligence between the actors. Seat belt laws are mainly revenue generating and act to protect people either unwilling to protect themselves on their own (victims) or protect people who drive with very high levels of negligence from higher crimes.

 

[mect]

So why then do we no longer see slaves in the South?

Actually, there are still slaves in the South (as well as everywhere else). It is just much lower profile because it is illegal now. The number decreased because previously law abiding citizens were keeping slaves because it was legal to do so. If the goal is to decrease gun ownership in our country, then I agree, making them illegal will make a significant impact, as the majority of people don't want to commit crimes. Most people want to obey the law. If the goal is to decrease homicides, then data indicates making guns illegal doesn't have an impact. Marijuana is illegal. Are you saying that its hard to get?

 

[Matt1970]

So why then do we no longer see slaves in the South?

Really? If it's just as simple as making something illegal then problem should have been solved long ago.

 

[HendrixFan]

Actually, there are still slaves in the South (as well as everywhere else). It is just much lower profile because it is illegal now. The number decreased because previously law abiding citizens were keeping slaves because it was legal to do so. If the goal is to decrease gun ownership in our country, then I agree, making them illegal will make a significant impact, as the majority of people don't want to commit crimes. Most people want to obey the law. If the goal is to decrease homicides, then data indicates making guns illegal doesn't have an impact. Marijuana is illegal. Are you saying that its hard to get?

This is absolutely true. Sex slaves are still around, but they are very rare. We don't have an industry based on slavery anymore. That change only happened when laws and enforcement made it so.

No gun laws will prevent all gun crimes. To argue that there will still be gun crime so we don't need gun laws is silly. Gun laws will have an impact, and making them harder to acquire is a major factor in that. Opportunity plus intent equals just about anything in life. Reduce the opportunity to acquire guns and there will be results.

Remember, this legislation doesn't make guns illegal. It just makes you have to jump through some reasonable hoops to acquire them legally.

 

[exdeath]

Another link: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/15/...-speedy-vote-on-gun-laws.html?pagewanted=1&hp

Seven round magazine limit. Seven freaking rounds. Anyone care to debate the the slippery slope now?

Next it will be 4-5 rounds. Specifically to effectively ban revolvers while claiming the whole time they aren't banning your guns.

 

[corwin]

This is absolutely true. Sex slaves are still around, but they are very rare. We don't have an industry based on slavery anymore. That change only happened when laws and enforcement made it so.

No gun laws will prevent all gun crimes. To argue that there will still be gun crime so we don't need gun laws is silly. Gun laws will have an impact, and making them harder to acquire is a major factor in that. Opportunity plus intent equals just about anything in life. Reduce the opportunity to acquire guns and there will be results.

Remember, this legislation doesn't make guns illegal. It just makes you have to jump through some reasonable hoops to acquire them legally.

That right there shows you are either an idiot or haven't actually read the legislation

I sincerely hope you just haven't read it...

 

[exdeath]

This is absolutely true. Sex slaves are still around, but they are very rare. We don't have an industry based on slavery anymore. That change only happened when laws and enforcement made it so.

No gun laws will prevent all gun crimes. To argue that there will still be gun crime so we don't need gun laws is silly. Gun laws will have an impact, and making them harder to acquire is a major factor in that. Opportunity plus intent equals just about anything in life. Reduce the opportunity to acquire guns and there will be results.

Remember, this legislation doesn't make guns illegal. It just makes you have to jump through some reasonable hoops to acquire them legally.

So someone in New York can still buy/sell/posses an AR-15 who doesn't already have one?

 

[mect]

Gun laws will have an impact, and making them harder to acquire is a major factor in that. Opportunity plus intent equals just about anything in life. Reduce the opportunity to acquire guns and there will be results.

Show me a peer reviewed study that hasn't been contested significantly by other peer reviewed publications, and you begin to have a case. I have yet to see it.

 

[Moonbeam]

Very different things. Owning certain types of firearms can now be illegal without even doing anything with them. You can't commit rape without actually raping.

Like machine guns?

 

[corwin]

Like machine guns?

Nope, they're still legal