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Question NVMe SSD Generation Question SSD Question

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,582
16
81
I am planning on a a new build in the very near future using a X570 MB (probably MSI as I appreciate the "no need for already supported CPU" button for the BIOS update, but I have no loyalty towards any brand as I have been building machines since ~1995 and have use just about all of the (I know I never used DFI as the upgrade bug and their price amhit a sweet spot for me, other than that, pretty much all) and the last 2 ASRock, and in all of those years they all ran good. I feel that a Gen3 X4 would be more than sufficient, especially the price premium and my current uses but this is going to be atleast a 5+ year buld, but I have only used upto SATAIII until what will be this new build, so I come seeking knowledge/advice. FWIW, current rig is a i5-2500K, 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 RAM (do not currently know speed or timings), SATAIII 180GB main drive, 2TD RAID1 ARRAY, Antec ~430W 80+ White PSU on a Z68 based ASRock M/B, using the internal i5-2500K GPU. I am starting to rip my BkluRay/4K movies (for the time being no compression, that may change depending the $ per GB on the Spinners.

My main question is there a NVMe SSD (either generation) that would be on a "do not buy" list, regardless of price?

FWIW, up until this point between the laptops and desktops that I currently, have, I have a majority Samsung EVO 860 & EVO 870 SATA III drives with one Intel 180GB drive that I currently do not know which drive it is. With that in mind, I honestly cannot tell the difference between the drives speed, it takes longer to go through the BIOS startup compared to the actual WIN10Pro startup, but I honestly do not care how long the startup is because one started, the machines will be on for days anyway and at this point my Cu LAN is the bottleneck maxing out @ 100M/B between machines (but as soon as 10GbE switches become reasonable in price I will be moving up).

Also, sometimes I will move up to ~100GB of data on the same drive. If this portion could be sped up, that would be greatly appreciated.

I have not decided between a Ryzen 5 3400g and a Ryzen 5 3600 (if I go the 3600, my GPU would be a RX580/8GB (not planning a CrossFire setup) card that I used (one of a few) to mine with, but with the amount of heat they put off and the time I chose to mine were not a good fit (PHX, AZ), small condo).

Price is obviously an issue but this is also my HTPC, so it will be on basically 24/7 w/ the exceptions of updates, and plan for at minimum yr useage. If it matters, I run a HDMI cable to my Denon receiver, then to the display, currently a 50" LCD.

Also, this main drive only needs to be @ max (I am thinking, I have not game in a few years, so clue me in, FWIW, if I did game, it is only 1 at a time, so thinking ~500GB as I will have atleast 4TB RAID1 on the machine that the main drive, along with the laptops get backed up to using Macrium a few times a week (possible 8TB+ RAID as the sales continue to show up and may possibly get better), and I will have at least 1 3.x external drive as I know RAID is not a backup.

Machine is also on a UPS 24/7.

OS will be be WIN10 PRO w/ 16 or 32GB of RAM. I have 2 sets of RAM, I thought I purchased what I could have sworn were the same 2 16GB kits on a rather good sale but the timings after looking at them as the build comes closer tells otherwise - both Adata XPG DDR4 - set 1 - 3000MHZ, 16, 18,18/ set 2 - 3000MHZ 16, 20, 20.
Not sure how much of an issue this will cause, since they are both 1.35V, I figure running both pairs @ 1.35V, 3000MHZ, 16, 20, 20 or if a better set cones up, grab that, and from what I understand the Zen2 chips do better with the fastest RAM (both speed & timings) possible, but I really don't know if 32GB would be extreme overkill, unless I end up gaming as do not know what current games need RAM wise as the last game I played was Battlefield 4, and FWIW, the genre of games I would go back to would be FPS, or possibly a simulator.

I do not plan on any gaming on the machine but that may change (doubtful but I figure the more info you have, the better suggestion you can make and at that time I would request the hives knowledge, and by that time I would probably be runningg a 4K display).

I will be using a Seasonic 550-750W 80+ Gold rated PSU (either straight Seasonic or Antec branded Seasonic, if that matters) along w/ 2x 120mm & 2x 140 fans - no liquid cooling.

I appreciate your time reading the and any suggestion you make.

Bob

Posted this from my phone, so if I missed an error, that is why.
Bob
 
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Shmee

Memory and Storage, Graphics Cards
Super Moderator
Sep 13, 2008
4,604
613
126
There isn't really, IMO an NMVe SSD that you should stay away from, it simply depends on is it worth the price. I would say that SSDs with QLC nand like the Intel 660p and Crucial P1 are generally not as fast and lower end compared to the others, but not so much cheaper when you can generally get a faster one for around the same price. Now, if they were a fair deal cheaper than the competition, then they make sense again. So I would say what you buy depends on the price; there are no bad NVMe drives generally, just bad prices.
 

VirtualLarry

Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
49,178
5,453
126
Avoid Intel 600p (older, TLC, not the newer 660p or 665p), and Adata SX6000 (not SX6000 Lite). They both use the same, older, controller, that I've had compatibility issues with my rigs. Not to mention, they didn't perform all that well.

Edit: Note that you would probably see those for sale only used, because they don't make them any more.
 
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bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,582
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Thanks for the answers, I feel like I did when I first started building machines, so much has changed since I am running an 8yr old CPU/GPU.

A FEW QUICK QUESTIONS AND CLARIFICATIONS:

I have had good luck with the normal SATAIII Samsung 870 (I think they were EVO, maybe EVO PLUS units?) in my laptops, so could I assume that the Samsung 970 EVO Plus would be a good candidate in the NVMe form factor? The specs say the 970 EVO Plus NVMe (according to NewEgg) max seq read of 3500MB/s & 3200MB/s, where the others in the Gen3 family seem to be decently close in read speed but not writing, usually a decent amount on paper, now I just need to know how those speeds transfer to real world use, performance and feel.

This is probably a dumb question but I will ask it anyway - up until this point, for me atleast, the SSD I believe was the bottleneck inside the case, and GbE outside the case, now can I ask where is the bottleneck strictly if we limit the scope to the internals of the case, because I know outside the case woulde be the GbE connection until 10GbE Cu switches become reasonable or the USB 3.X ports. And since I am thinking of going a X570 board, would it be a waste because I am not paying $200± for a Gen4 "main" drive. Would a B450 board fair just as well being I will be going with a Gen3 NVNe 500GB Samsung 970 Evo Plus, or if I went a B450, would the Samsung drive be limited by the B450 Board - again thinking MSI because I have used them in the past with good results, prices were fair and I find the "No CPU Necessary for BIOS Upgrade to be appealing"? In regards to that option, at this current time, do the X570 boards of any brand support all current CPUs I have talked about - ZEN+ & ZEN2? If that question was a yes, that would be nice, I will be looking at, but if somebody has the answer that will save me time and would be greatly appreciated. My goal is for everything running in or around the same speed or just have just 1 common bottleneck for least amount of wasted $$ - no reason to go the Samsung drive only to find out the B450 board setup can only move data at it's fastest at 2000MBs reading and 1500MBs writing (hypotheticals, but you get the idea). Or am I getting the max out of the Samsung going with a B450 board compared to a X570 and have a decent upgrade path with Gen4 x4, up to Threadripper CPU, etc as the prices are quite a difference between the two now, but as new items come out, I see I am way behind for the HTPC and the used upgrade market which/should be ripe with excellent fruit in the coming years should I need it, I just want to get a platform that has this upgradeability but don't want to waste money if in fact something is a waste, whether is be the board, RAM, etc (I understand the X570 board with a quality Gen4 x4 drive nearly doubles the bandwidth, etc)

Thanks,
Bob
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,582
16
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The B450 has PCI-E 3.0 x4 for the primary NVMe slot. Therefore, a Gen3 PCI-E x4 NVMe drive will NOT be bottle-necked.
Larry,
I understand that portion but doesn't the CPU have only X amount of certain Gen X lanes to support all the hardware? X amount for the NVMe, X amount if I opt to use CPU that does not have an integrated GPU, X amount for memory bandwidth? X amount for the upcoming 10GbE card I would be putting when 10GbE switches cost less than my monthly mortgage, etc?
I guess that is my question, at what point does the CPU become bottlenecked? Or wou it be the board that is bottlenecked due to the plethora of ways you could opt to add the hardware?

Thanks for your knowledge,
Bob
 

VirtualLarry

Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
49,178
5,453
126
Well, first of all, these CPUs (ever since the A64) have an IMC. The DRAM bus is separate from the PCI-E bus.

Secondly, there are three primary groups of PCI-E lanes coming off of the CPU:
x16 lanes of PCI-E 3.0 (Zen/Zen+) or PCI-E 4.0 (Zen2) for the GPU
x4 lanes of PCI-E 3.0/4.0, for the primary NVMe slot.
and x4 lanes of PCI-E 3.0/4.0, for the bus to the chipset. The chipset then has some additional fan-out, just be aware that all of the bus connections and PCI-E fan-out connections from the chipset, get bottle-necked at the PCI-E x4 lanes for the chipset-CPU communications. That also means, that when the SATA port has to access RAM (DMA transfer), then it goes from the drive, over the SATA bus, over the PCI-E bus from the chipset to the CPU, and then out to DRAM over the CPU's IMC.

This is actually BETTER than most Intel Z370/Z390 boards, as there is no direct-access NVMe socket to the CPU on Intel consumer socket platforms, you need to move up to HEDT Intel for that.

Also, depending on chipset and layout on AM4, they can bifurcate the PCI-E x16 GPU slot. On my Asus B450-F ROG STRIX Gaming ATX, I'm running PCI-E 3.0 x8 for the primary GPU slot, PCI-E 3.0 x4 for the secondary GPU slot, and PCI-E 3.0 x4 for the secondary NVMe slot. Plus the PCI-E 3.0 x4 dedicated for the primary NVMe slot. (I'm running RAID-0 NVMe PCI-E 3.0 x4 drives, at full speed.)

The CPU is also an SoC, so it has some SATA and USB3.x ports directly off of it too, which may be convertable to some extra PCI-E lanes as well, if you forgo the extra SoC SATA/USB ports, on some boards this could be valuable.
 
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bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,582
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D@mn, how time has flown by. Was out of commission for some time due to some neurological issues so I think i missed out on the good sales as I have been watching the carts I have @ Amazon and Newegg, but they are slowly coming back down in price.

Out of curiosity, do you think that the Samsung 970 Evo/Evo Plus are worth their premium? FWIW, as I write this the 500GB 970 Evo is going for ~$80 and the Evo Plus is going for $100. Where am I going to notice the difference especially if I build this machine w/ a x570 board but a 3400g CPU? For SSDs, I have had good luck w/ the Samsung drives, they always do what they are suppose to do but it seems like there is a premium.

The way things are working out I might need to build 2 machines, I have 2 thought processes - 1 B450 based board w/ the 3400g (HTPC) and then 1 x570 based board w/ at least a 3600, both w/ 16GB DDR4 and the 3600 would have the RX580/8GB card in it. Since they x570 board is ~ double the B450 based board, am I really getting my $$ worth? Or should I just build 2 machines on a B450 based board (since the 3600 TDP is rated @ 65W) and a 970 Evo? Second machine w/ the 3600 would be used for video editing and Solidworks 3d modeling....

Last, I know this is a question you probably cannot answer that accurately, but say I do not go w/ an MSI board - how likely, at this time, am I going to get a B450 board (popular manf - ASRock, ASUS etc) that will not have an up-to-date bios to support the 3400G?

Thanks in advance for your time,
Bob
 
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