This seems to be the major issue here. Everyone thinks someone is gonna want to upgrade their previous top-of-the-line 8800GTX or upper mid range 9800GTX and be soooooo confused by the naming scheme that they blow their money on the new 200 series weakest card.
People are afraid that some dumb kid who blew his allowance trying to upgrade his $699 8800GTX with a $299 9800GTX is now going to lose another $149 upgrading to a 250 GTX.
I don't see how this is going to be an issue. Its not like they are raising the price on the cards. Are you going to upgrade your $299 GTX280 with the $149 GTX320?
Zap
Elite Member
- Oct 13, 1999
- 22,377
- 7
- 81
That's a great point. If someone has a history of buying, let's say, $300 cards, why would they suddenly decide to "upgrade" to a cheaper card? That's like someone buying a Radeon 3850 for $160 a while back and "upgrading" to a 4670 for $80 today. No, that person will likely look around to see what was for $160... 4850-4870.
Right. But NVIDIA can't just snap fingers and voila! There has to be a transition period as old stock is still on shelves and in warehouses while new stock is being made. That may be what is happening right now.
Good point. The only consumer this is hurting are those who cook their brains thinking too hard on being a couch analyst.
There has been ZERO evidence of this happening. On the contrary history shows that in prior iterations the "newer G92 rebrand" has cost less.
Just over a year ago I got in on a Dell deal for the 8800 GT for around $220 back when there was a shortage and places that still had stock were charging over $300. What are 9800 GT cards going for these days?
Back on 5/7/08 I purchased a 9800 GTX for $309.99 at Newegg. What was the price of 9800 GTX+ when they were released?
Sure, prices of the old stuff by then has dropped, but it isn't as if prices bumped higher at that time.
Thanks for that link. This should clear some stuff up, except for pricing.
Are there 1GB 9800 GTX+ cards? Yes. Are there 1GB 9800 GTX+ cards with memory clocked at 1100(2200)? No. Thus, the GTS 250 will (at stock levels) perform better than the "same" 9800 GTX+ by a bit. (disclaimer: if that forum post link is correct
)"Nvidia and AMD always check with their partners who get the boards and ask them to send boards in priority to some website and not to some other."
This isn't new or exclusive behavior.
So, let's just wait until 3/3 for reviews so we know performance, and 3/10 for pricing as they become available for sale. When that happens, just remember what MSRP the 9800 GTX+ launched with, at half the RAM. :beer:
I'm not saying that the buyer should have done more research. I'm saying it will have a detrimental effect on Nvidia in the long run (i.e. buyer will not be happy).
Also, history has shown the "old" or "replaced" designation can usually be had for much cheaper prices after a new product launch, even if the performance of the new part is very similar. Like the 8800GTX/Ultra which held their price for almost a year and a half at $550+ dropped to $300 or less overnight as soon as the 9800GTX and GX2 launched. Recent examples would be the clearances on the 192SP GTX 260 and GTX 280 after the 216SP and 285, respectively. So instead of unknowing consumers getting fleeced, there's actually a good chance they get a great deal on parts being clearanced.
i would have gotten the 8800GT instead of the ATI 3870. i wanted a card
that had been out a year+ to resolve driver issues, for a system running
programs like Maya & 3D Studio Max.
BUT - i couldn't tell how which 9800 was which. so i went ATI instead of nV.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,211
- 50
- 91
8800GTX/Ultra does not equal 9800GTX. Hugely different cards/GPU/bus/mem. No renaming applies there. If this is what you actually meant, I couldn't make heads or tails of your post, so, sorry. Your all over the place.
As I said, IF the renaming of 9800GT to GTS240 or 9800GTX+ to GTS250 results in a ZERO price increase from existing 9800GT's and 9800GTX+'s, then all is cool. That will mean there is no evidence of trying to "fool" the consumer into spending more money on a GPU with a "new" designation, or "sounds" like a new product. If the price goes up however, then we have some serious problems, or at least I will. As Zap has stated, there is zero evidence to date that pricing on the new name products would be higher. Lets hope it stays that way.
the only cards of late that ATI has rebranded, was they made the X300/x550 the X1050.
And back in the day they made the 8500 the 9100.
Nvidia has been doing this for a while also anyway.
8800GT and 9800GT
8800GS 9600GSO
7100GS and 6200TC
Even if they did raise their prices, where's the foul?
It is capitalism, supply/demand equilibrium. Marketing's job is to increase demand so they push the equilibrium ASP higher. If that means glitzy packaging and snazzy product names then so be it. Its their job (marketing) to add value to their employer above and beyond the compensation footprint they leave on the company as employees.
We may feel like its motivated by malfeasance or unethical greed, but absolutely everything they do is motivated by the same mentality...so if we have an issue with the mentality of what drives publicly held businesses to increase revenue then we should have issues with them simply operating as for-profit businesses in general.
A bridge which I don't think anyone wants to cross.
Is it unethical for a company to charge $300 for a product that costs $5 to produce? What about $10, or $100, or $299? Who are we to judge what is unacceptable greed and what is acceptable greed.
If NV discovers that all it takes to increase revenue is to rename an existing product the 2600GTorgazmo+ and price it to sell for $10 more than the existing hardware equivalent then where is the fiducial responsibility to their shareholders if the decision makers opt to not raise revenue by increasing the price on the 2600GTorgazmo+?
The only unethical aspect to this as I see it is the consumer who has access to all the info they need to make an informed educated purchase but chooses not to exercise their rights to secure this info for themselves, and subsequently decides to decry malfeasance and unethical business practice against NV (or any other company operating for-profit) as a means to blame someone/anyone other than themselves for their being "duped" into buying less for more. edit: fixed analogy error (more for less versus less for more)
Is it unethical for a gas station on the corner of a street to charge $0.01 more per gallon than the gas station right across the street on the same street corner?
Or what about the same gas station company having two gas stations in the same town but one charges $0.01 more per gallon than the other gas station (two exxon's, same local franchise owner, for example)? Of course we don't see this as unethical, it is capitalism, consumers can find out online where the cheaper gas is in their town and they can go get it if they feel so inclined.
You're clearly mistaken here. The 9800GTX was clearly the successor for the 8800GTX and single-card halo product. I'm not talking about strict performance, as it didn't convincingly beat the 8800GTX, but it was close enough to push the G80 into retirement and shift to a 65nm line-up. The main distinction that allowed 9800GTX to assume the high-end was the two SLI connectors, allowing for the high-end Tri-SLI solution.
Nvidia also clearly waited to shift their line-up to 9-series until after this product launched, as Nvidia will try to avoid launching a new "series" if the new product does not outperform the fastest part from the old series. That's why the 8800GT was the 8800GT and not the 9800GT and the G92 GTS was the 8800GTS and not the 9800GTS. If all those G92 parts were 9800 to begin with much of the fuss over the recent naming conventions would've never gained traction to begin with.
Where have I said differently? I said the parts with the old designation can often be had for bargain basement prices as retailers look to clear stock rather than ship back to the partner for rebranding.
All early indications show the rebranded GTS 250 will in fact be cheaper than its 9800GTX+ counterparts, so I agree, clearly the consumer benefits here from the rebrand and market repositioning.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,211
- 50
- 91
^bold. This is what I mean about all over the place. 8800GTX to 9800GTX really has zilch to do with what this thread is about. 8800GTX was not "re-named" 9800GTX. I don't know what brought on the tangent, but keep it to the subject??
9800GT to GTS240
9800GTX+ to GTS250
Nothing more, nothing less, nothing to do with ATI, etc. etc.
The point was that "new product" often brings about price discounts and opportunity for better deals on similarly performing parts, refuting some of the points about rebranding hurting unsuspecting, uneducated consumers. In this case, there's a good chance of someone eye-balling the replaced product getting a better price, rather than getting fleeced.
error8
Diamond Member
- Nov 28, 2007
- 3,204
- 0
- 76
Probably nobody has to suffer because of the renaming scheme , since you're still going to get the performance you've paid for, because the renamed cards will not cost more. But it still is pretty annoying, that instead of renaming the same card for 2 consecutive times, Nvidia should have, at least, modified the current version by adding it an extra 10 mhz on the gpu or a bit faster ram, or at least to change the reference cooler, something that would differentiate the newer card from the old one somehow. At least this is what I would have liked to see on the renamed cards.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,211
- 50
- 91
That would be true if there was some innovative change that involves getting similar performance of a previous product, but with a redesign to reduce costs.
We are talking a simple rename here. No new tech. No new smaller man. process. No reduced bus width. So, there is no relationship between "your" definition of a new product, and what we are actually talking about here.
from 8800GTX
die shrink 80nm to 65nm
refined core with enhancements
subtract 128bit width from the bus
subtract 256MB GDDR3
subtract a couple of PCB layers
and shazam!!!
to 9800GTX (anyone can see why this was able to offered cheaper than the 8800GTX)
---
from 9800GT
zippo changes
to GTS240 (care to tell us all how this would be offered cheaper than a 9800GT? )
Same principle applies to a 9800GTX+ to a GTS250.
Your talking about two entirely different situations Chizow. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. The thing that kills me is, I know you know all of this. You're a pretty smart guy. But ya'know, others in here are pretty smart also. Diffusion and tangents lead to thread derailments and locks. If this isn't your intention, then get with the program.
No offense, but your inability to digest the information in my post doesn't mean its OT. But back to my original point. In no way did I claim the 9800GTX as a rebrand of the 8800GTX in a literal sense. Its clearly a different architecture, however, it replaced the 8800GTX in a product/market segment and led to the G80 going EOL with clearance prices.Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Your talking about two entirely different situations Chizow. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. The thing that kills me is, I know you know all of this. You're a pretty smart guy. But ya'know, others in here are pretty smart also. Diffusion and tangents lead to thread derailments and locks. If this isn't your intention, then get with the program.
The fact the 8800GTX actually outperformed the 9800GTX in many situations and wasn't convincingly faster than the part that replaced it reinforces my point further, as the 9800GTX clearly drove the price drop on a part that had held its price for well over a year, allowing for bargains to be had on a part that was still very much competitive with the part that replaced it. I drew further parallels with the recent rebrand/relaunches of the GTX 260 and 285, although they both came with slight improvements or a new process.
The GTS 250 also comes with a 1GB version, which means there is a difference in the official line-up of this part, along with faster clocked RAM and slightly faster core clocks. Same for the GTS 240, which apparently may get both increased core clocks as well as all 128SP instead of the 112 on the 9800GT.
So yes, they're technically a rebrand of the same part with a few tweaks to reposition them and again, I'm sure there will be extremely good deals on 9800GTX+ parts already in the channel as they're clearanced to make room for the "new" GTS 250. Kinda like when the last model year cars see their prices slashed when the new model year cars come in, even if the new model only comes with a new cup holder and rims.
Ya, same outcome, you still don't get it.
Here it is for you, simplified: a rebrand isn't always a bad thing and rarely leads to higher prices, it often results in quite the opposite effect.
Here it is for you, simplified: a rebrand isn't always a bad thing and rarely leads to higher prices, it often results in quite the opposite effect.
If you are getting feedback to the effect that your message isn't being well communicated (meaning your perception is that your message is being misunderstood, misinterpreted, misperceived, etc) then it might be cause to pause and regroup your thoughts, deliver the message with an alternative approach angle.
It's clearly important to you that keys and others in this forum understand (if not outright agree with) your message; as such, berating or belittling them will not assist you in achieving that goal. That whole honey/vinegar cliche thing.
Heh, I can't help it if he randomly quotes something I said and completely bastardizes its meaning, then claims I'm OT making a point I never made. Looking back at the post he took issue with, the meaning seems clear enough to me as summarized in my last sentence: So instead of unknowing consumers getting fleeced, there's actually a good chance they get a great deal on parts being clearanced.
I can appreciate the frustration one experiences when a seemingly straightforward statement appears to be woefully misinterpreted, or even worse it gets contorted into something that is actually in direct contradiction to the original message itself.
The emotions from such situations can range from bafflement to bemusement to sadness and on occasion to outright legitimate flashes of anger out of sheer frustration.
I don't presume to be saying anything you don't already know. Just saying you aren't alone.
But if I could be so bold as to assume I can add some value to this side-topic (yes I know this is unsolicited advice, sorry in advance, I'll be brief) I'd add that for me I've seen on occasion that the path of least resistance requires removing all references of emotion and potentially divisive wording from one's response post.
The challenge is to find the resolve to do this despite all the feelings of justification one has for lacing one's post with a side dish of vitriol.
The reward can sometimes be nothing more than simply getting the pleasure of not having to repeat oneself over and over again because people just can't seem to get the message.
I'll get off my soapbox now, just a pet peeve of mine to see an otherwise very logical debating format and style be undermined by a tinge of too much personal vindication. It'll be a personal goal of mine to not hassle you about it anymore though for fear of betraying myself as a hypocrite of this very message
well the only reason they are rebranding them is because their sales are down. i mean with 4830s selling at 85AR they are becoming old very fast. nvidia need a die shrink or something to keep going in that sector not a brand of the same exact card. how about a real upgrade with a smaller version of GT260s? or give a 8800gt with 40nm process that can clock a lot better.
The points you made certainly aren't lost on this end, however, its not real difficult to determine when someone is genuinely confused by something I've posted or if they're being purposefully obtuse for whatever the reason.Originally posted by: Idontcare
I can appreciate the frustration one experiences when a seemingly straightforward statement appears to be woefully misinterpreted, or even worse it gets contorted into something that is actually in direct contradiction to the original message itself.
The emotions from such situations can range from bafflement to bemusement to sadness and on occasion to outright legitimate flashes of anger out of sheer frustration.
I don't presume to be saying anything you don't already know. Just saying you aren't alone.
But if I could be so bold as to assume I can add some value to this side-topic (yes I know this is unsolicited advice, sorry in advance, I'll be brief) I'd add that for me I've seen on occasion that the path of least resistance requires removing all references of emotion and potentially divisive wording from one's response post.
The challenge is to find the resolve to do this despite all the feelings of justification one has for lacing one's post with a side dish of vitriol.
The reward can sometimes be nothing more than simply getting the pleasure of not having to repeat oneself over and over again because people just can't seem to get the message.
I'll get off my soapbox now, just a pet peeve of mine to see an otherwise very logical debating format and style be undermined by a tinge of too much personal vindication. It'll be a personal goal of mine to not hassle you about it anymore though for fear of betraying myself as a hypocrite of this very message
I'm not sure if you read the entire development of the exchange, but I don't think what you posted applies here really. He took offense to a point I didn't make, then went from confused to obtuse to terse and condescending as I made a genuine effort to clarify. I'm not going to be patronized for something I didn't say, sorry. I think we're both well aware there's a chance that meaning is lost in text, but its clear his replies are painted with loaded phrases. It is what it is, no big deal on my end.
Dilbert works for Nvidia?
Just joking of course, but the cartoon is funny because it does kind of reflect reality.
Just joking of course, but the cartoon is funny because it does kind of reflect reality.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 21K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter