nVidia vs ATi - Beyond the Benchmarks

[BFG10K]

This one should generate some interesting discussions I think.

Click.

 

[tuteja1986]

x1800xl vs 7800GT(HQ) vs 7800GT(Q)

"Also ATi's Direct3D benchmarks are generally lower than they should be because their optimizations are turned off by default"

"Secondly, spare a thought for anti-aliasing image quality as in single GPU configurations nVidia currently dominates ATi"

Asus 7800GT, 20 pipes, factory overclock 420/1240. vs Gigabyte X800XL, 16 pipes, stock reference clocks 400/1000.

I also wonder why BF2 benchmark weren't done :? maybe because Nvidia looses so badly.

Sorry BF10K but i have read your post in the past i know you have a little soft spot for Nvidia and I can really take this review seriously

 

[compgeek89]

Eh, its BS.

 

[dagabs]

Very Interesting.

I didnt realize High Quality removed shimmering, I might give it ago.

The benchmarks are a little off, cause he has only chosen one specific resolution per game to prove 800XL can beat or be close to the 7800gt.

According to the recent Anandtech article about driver improvements, the 800XL which competed against the 6800gt has improved significantly with every catalyst driver released, compared to the 6800gt, which has barely increased. So the 800XL has improved so much that it reaches closer to the 7800gt.

 

[Elfear]

Interesting. Thanks for taking the time to run those benchmarks BFG10K. I found somewhat similiar results between my X850XT PE and my 7800GTX in certain games. There wasn't nearly the disparity in performance that I had expected.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: dagabs
Very Interesting.

I didnt realize High Quality removed shimmering, I might give it ago.

It doesnt. It simply reduces it. There is some misinformaton being spread that it "fixes" it, when it doesnt.

 

[Paratus]

Good Job!

While it's not a perfect review it does show that at equal IQ settings NV suffers a large performance hit.

Now the next test should be ATI 6X AAA vs NV 8X SSAA w HQ settings on new and older games. I'd like to hear some comments on IQ and FPS.

posted via Palm Life Drive

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: dagabs
Very Interesting.

I didnt realize High Quality removed shimmering, I might give it ago.

It doesnt. It simply reduces it. There is some misinformaton being spread that it "fixes" it, when it doesnt.

Yep HQ does not fix the shimmering for nVidia cards and its still visible in some areas but it's not nearly as bad as their Quality setting.

 

[Crescent13]

I've always used high quality. lol I guess that's why I've never understood what this "shimmering" thing is that people are always talking about.

 

[hemmy]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: dagabs
Very Interesting.

I didnt realize High Quality removed shimmering, I might give it ago.

It doesnt. It simply reduces it. There is some misinformaton being spread that it "fixes" it, when it doesnt.

It depends on the game, some games there is none

 

[imported_Crusader]

The problem with that post is there is no standardization of testing, it appears the poster may have been handpicking benchmarks to prove an agenda.

Every game is at a different resolution or AA setting. Does anyone actually play without AA anymore?

Optimizations are enabled for the ATI card, disabled at High Quality for the nVidia card.

The poster implies a huge difference in the amount of shimmer that most reviewers, and many users, don't even notice.

Even with his testing methods, and High Quality AF, the COD2, UT2004, Riddick, Quake 4 benchmarks clearly show the 7800GT would be a worthy upgrade from the X800XL. (not to mention we're on 7900GTs these days)

 

[dagabs]

Originally posted by: Crusader
The problem with that post is there is no standardization of testing, it appears the poster may have been handpicking benchmarks to prove an agenda.

Agreed.

Then again you dont seem to favour ATI according to your sig.

Anyways I've tested Quality and High Quality on Oblvion from the Stables outiside of the main city. Looking down on the bridge there is heaps of shimmering with Quality, then I switched to High Quality, and it drastically reduced the shimmering. There is still a bit of shimmering, but not as distracting as Quality.

On the downside my FPS went from 27-35 to 19-24.

I need a new card. :-(

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

I have to call shens on these benchmarks. If not as a whole, at least F.E.A.R.
On my 7900GT, at quality I averaged 58 fps at 1280X960, 4X/16X. At HQ with STRAA it dropped the average down to 55. A whole 5% drop! Yet, in the benchmarks, it shows a 7800GT dropping 19%.

7800GT(HQ) 7800GT(Q) % Drop

63.00----------78.00-------- -19%

This may be due to the lack of AA, but I really doubt that.

EDIT: I don't mean to try and destroy BFG10K's point. I agree that HQ is a must on NV cards. I always set mine to HQ, but I've never noticed a lack of performance compared to online benchmarks.

 

[dagabs]

Well I have to conclude BFG10K has certainly opened my eyes a little.

The important thing about the post is not ATI vs Nvidia, but the drop in FPS for Nvidia High Quality.
Now when I see benchies with Quality set on Nvidia drivers I just take off roughly 8-10 FPS of the result.

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: XabanakFanatik
I have to call shens on these benchmarks. If not as a whole, at least F.E.A.R.
On my 7900GT, at quality I averaged 58 fps at 1280X960, 4X/16X. At HQ with STRAA it dropped the average down to 55. A whole 5% drop! Yet, in the benchmarks, it shows a 7800GT dropping 19%.

7800GT(HQ) 7800GT(Q) % Drop

63.00----------78.00-------- -19%

This may be due to the lack of AA, but I really doubt that.

i did a couple of benchmarks with Doom3 and CS Source on my 6600. using HQ i went down .7 frame in Doom3 and 1.6 in CS Source.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

LMAO! the ATI paperboy thinks it was too kind to nV, and the nV crusader thinks it had a pro-ATI agenda. Congrats BFG, you evidently wrote a very balanced review to have both camps unhappy :thumbsup:

 

[imported_Crusader]

If you read the "unbiased peoples" comments in this thread it "opens their eyes" to Nvidia horrors of Quality mode.
Think BFG agendas much?

BTW, no one is unbiased unless you are a robot. Even if you are a robot like BFG/5150 then your programmer is biased.

The simple fact these results are based on a 7800, these results are not valid.. regardless of my accusations of BFGs preferences. Most everyone will agree this test is flawed, as well as out of date.. nor does any credible reviewer back it up.

 

[5150Joker]

His tests are not flawed nor are they out of date. nVidia hasn't changed it's AF algorithm since the Geforce 6 therefore BFG's findings are perfectly valid. I have a 7900 Go GS coming and it should get here by Wednesday, I'll see if I can run the same tests BFG did except I might do a little extra and record some uncompresed FRAPs vids for everyone to see nVidia's "awesome" Quality AF (that was sarcasm Crusader since I know you're a bit thick). I'll even try to show nVidia's higher AA modes to balance it out a bit.

 

[Golgatha]

With the calibur of cards we have today, I just don't look at any benchmarks ran less than 1280x1024(or 960) with 4xAA and 8xAF set to HQ modes for each card. This is the way games should run on the likes of the 7900 and X1k series of cards. Lowering resolution or AA/AF settings on these cards is like throwing money away IMO if you're dropping $300-$500 on a video card.

 

[CP5670]

Good review, I've wanted to see some results on this for a while. I was getting performance drops in Riddick and UT2004 on my 7800 GTs that were big enough to be noticeable during normal gameplay (without doing any benchmarks) when the HQ mode was turned on. I just stayed away from AF in these games and stuck with quality mode (they look mostly identical without AF), as the quality mode AF looks worse than having no AF at all in my opinion.

However, Nvidia's HQ mode doesn't remove the shimmering altogether; it's definitely still there in some games. After doing some comparisons with my new card I think Nvidia's AF on HQ mode shimmers a little less than ATI's HQ AF, especially with the LOD clamp enabled. Both look far better than the 7 series' quality mode AF, but Nvidia has a noticeable advantage with HQ and LOD clamp both on. It's a pity that the performance hit for HQ is so significant and the only alternative is the quality mode AF that looks like crap. As far as I know, there is no way to get completely perfect AF on any of the modern cards.

It might also be interesting to see how the Geforce 6 series cards stack up. Although I never did any direct comparisons, my old 6800 GT shimmered a lot less than the 7800 GTs I was using until recently. I never really noticed it unless I was specifically looking for it on the 6800 GT, but it stuck out like a sore thumb immediately when I first started a game with the 7800s.

On a note about the shimmering itself, for those of you who can't see it, look for a game with a large room that has both simple level geometry and high resolution textures, particularly grid-like ones such as square floor tiles, run it at least 1600x1200 if possible and use 16x AF. I think these are the conditions under which the effect is most apparent.

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
His tests are not flawed nor are they out of date. nVidia hasn't changed it's AF algorithm since the Geforce 6 therefore BFG's findings are perfectly valid. I have a 7900 Go GS coming and it should get here by Wednesday, I'll see if I can run the same tests BFG did except I might do a little extra and record some uncompresed FRAPs vids for everyone to see nVidia's "awesome" Quality AF (that was sarcasm Crusader since I know you're a bit thick). I'll even try to show nVidia's higher AA modes to balance it out a bit.

Certainly ATI can program a better bot than you.
Guess that explains their industry leading driver issues and incompetence in programming Linux drivers.

 

[xtknight]

Interesting, thanks...but it would be nice if we could see for ourselves how the image quality compared between the X800XL and 7800GT (HQ).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: CP5670
As far as I know, there is no way to get completely perfect AF on any of the modern cards.

I think it would be impossible for it to be perfect. You can't 'perfectly' map a texture to the ground without having some kind of issue viewing it at a different angle. It's just a matter of how good the cards can do it whilst maintaining a decent framerate. Personally I think what they have now is a perfect balance. I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any more to reduce something that doesn't even bother me most of the time.

 

[anandtechrocks]

Originally posted by: Crusader
If you read the "unbiased peoples" comments in this thread it "opens their eyes" to Nvidia horrors of Quality mode.
Think BFG agendas much?

BTW, no one is unbiased unless you are a robot. Even if you are a robot like BFG/5150 then your programmer is biased.

The simple fact these results are based on a 7800, these results are not valid.. regardless of my accusations of BFGs preferences. Most everyone will agree this test is flawed, as well as out of date.. nor does any credible reviewer back it up.

I don't understand your logic... the tests were run on a 7800 GT (a very popular card), but to you that means they are not valid? Makes no sense to me.

It's quite clear where your bias lies, that sig is rediculous.

I don't, "agree this test is flawed" I appreciate his work, as I had never really taken this into account.

Are you a credible reviewer? Is anyone here a credible reviewer? It has interesting information and it shows "valid" enough results to me.

 

[nitromullet]

Interesting point and certainly valid, but your results are riddled with inconsistent resolutions and settings. Why would you bother with HQ AF, then not use AA at 1600x1200? I think you're cherrypicking your results to prove your point. Your benchmarks would be far more credible IMO if you just said you ran these benchmarks at 1280x1024, 1600x1200, and 1920x1440 resoltuons with 4xAA/16xAF in both Q and HQ modes for NV cards, and presented all the results.