Nvidia too thick to implement virtualised graphics memory.

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: dreddfunk

I'm fairly certain that if I was trolling, flaming, name calling as you say, no such invitation would have been graciously extended to me, or any other new moderator here.

Congratulations to both you and apoppin for being appointed moderators. I wouldn't necessarily agree with your logic, however.

While you've both shown a passion for video-related issues, have been somewhat even-handed in your reactions to the ATI/nVidia debate and are also frequent posters on the boards, none of us are immune to poorly-considered words, rash statements and incivility.

Recall the Roman generals who were accompanied by a slave on their victory parade, who whispered the words, "memento mori," in their ears even as the general basked in the adulation of Rome's populace. This is the line famously rendered "Remember, thou art mortal" in English.

Great job on the review my friends, and your appointments as moderators. Maybe you all can coordinate a GTS 320 vs. GTS 640 shootout at various resolutions & AA settings.


Cheers...and...

[whispers]

Memento mori.

good reminder for anyone ... and thank-you

i imagine the administration is looking harder at Video than perhaps any other HW forum ... we are a real "draw" here ... compared to the "proper" but boring-as-hell discussions at other tech forums ... or the flame-fests at others ... or the decidedly LOP-sided forums sponsored by the fanboys of their respective forums ... we are pretty unique ... with - i believe - an excellent and knowledgeable "core crew" of guys [we could actually attract a few girls, i guess, by being politer to them].

and of course, we are proud of our opinion and often of our rigs and the GPUs that power such entertainment for us ... discussing these things leads to comparisons, boasts, brags ... and a great deal of knowledge from the combined wisdom of this forum and our guests.

UNFORTUNATELY, this self-assuredness and pride often leads to poorly-chosen words, offense given and taken and then the inevitable escalation into flaming, name-calling and rude insults. The heated discussions are FINE. Attack the IDEA - as cleverly as you can manage - but not the POSTER who put forth his ideas

We are just going to demand a higher level of respect shown for each other. You may - deep inside - firmly believe that the other poster is a fool or fanboy, or even a paid viral agent ... just - please DON'T POST IT ... or if you really hate the other person, do the rudest thing allowable - IGNORE them ... just don't read their responses ... and if they are calling you out by name to incite your heated response, please let US know and we can help correct the situation.

The title of this topic is "flamebait" - "nvidia too thick" or too stupid to implement something is NOT in the article. Who really knows what happened between MS and nvidia?

 

[BFG10K]

I thought the driver model was just based on .NET which is doable in XP also.

.NET has nothing to do with it, it's the fact that Vista's kernel infrastructure has changed.

The IHV user mode driver now passes data to the kernel mode driver, unlike on XP where DirectX does it and hence generates overhead from the translation required.

 

[titan7]

If you want d3d10 features on XP use OpenGL which allows them to be exposed. MS makes money by getting you to upgrade. MS loses money by having their engineers back port d3d10 to XP. And wastes nvidia, amd, and intel's time by making them write a Vista and XP version of their drivers. It costs and lot and buys them nothing. And due to changes in Vista's drivers it would be much slower on XP and then people would complain they were messing up on purpose.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Originally posted by: dreddfunk

I'm fairly certain that if I was trolling, flaming, name calling as you say, no such invitation would have been graciously extended to me, or any other new moderator here.

Congratulations to both you and apoppin for being appointed moderators. I wouldn't necessarily agree with your logic, however.

While you've both shown a passion for video-related issues, have been somewhat even-handed in your reactions to the ATI/nVidia debate and are also frequent posters on the boards, none of us are immune to poorly-considered words, rash statements and incivility.

Recall the Roman generals who were accompanied by a slave on their victory parade, who whispered the words, "memento mori," in their ears even as the general basked in the adulation of Rome's populace. This is the line famously rendered "Remember, thou art mortal" in English.

Great job on the review my friends, and your appointments as moderators. Maybe you all can coordinate a GTS 320 vs. GTS 640 shootout at various resolutions & AA settings.


Cheers...and...

[whispers]

Memento mori.

appopin was appointed. :shocked: DAMN. he's the worst troll rivalled only by gstanfor himself.

the mods must not come here at all.
anyone remember his xbox and ps3 thread sometime ago.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven

Originally posted by: dreddfunk

I'm fairly certain that if I was trolling, flaming, name calling as you say, no such invitation would have been graciously extended to me, or any other new moderator here.

Congratulations to both you and apoppin for being appointed moderators. I wouldn't necessarily agree with your logic, however.

While you've both shown a passion for video-related issues, have been somewhat even-handed in your reactions to the ATI/nVidia debate and are also frequent posters on the boards, none of us are immune to poorly-considered words, rash statements and incivility.

Recall the Roman generals who were accompanied by a slave on their victory parade, who whispered the words, "memento mori," in their ears even as the general basked in the adulation of Rome's populace. This is the line famously rendered "Remember, thou art mortal" in English.

Great job on the review my friends, and your appointments as moderators. Maybe you all can coordinate a GTS 320 vs. GTS 640 shootout at various resolutions & AA settings.


Cheers...and...

[whispers]

Memento mori.

appopin was appointed. :shocked: DAMN. he's the worst troll rivalled only by gstanfor himself.

the mods must not come here at all.
anyone remember his xbox and ps3 thread sometime ago.

i guess the administration didn't care enough about your opinion when they invited me to moderate Video and CPU forum

BUT thanks for reminding me ... i'll be sure to update the "John Romero" thread for you
... there is a lot of new info that came out while i was benchmarking 2900xt vs. GTS-640

oh, Gstanfor says 'hi' and that he won't be coming back here to ATF video
[even if he could]

 

[miniMUNCH]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
I dont believe much, if anything from the Inq. Looks like more gibberish from them to me. Back it up with some facts, then they'll have something.

This is the common problem with Inq. articles.

The Inq. is one of the British tabloids of the computer industry... bottom line, they will publish anything to keep up their site hits.

 

[miniMUNCH]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
I didn't realize keys was a mod.. a video forum mod!!

Anyway moving from XP to Vista just for DX10 does brew all kind of foul smell, however from what i can tell DX10 could be possible on XP just like some are pointing out. I guess MS will do everything to stop this from happening (damage control) since the main buy point of Vista is DX10 (for gamers).

Well atleast SP1 is coming out rather soon for Vista. Maybe then ill jump ship.

there are now TWO of us

and Vista 32 surprised the heck out of me ... it IS ready for primetime even now

I'm using Vista 64 with a 8800GTS I have had almost zero problems with modern games. A few NWN mods have caused some game crashes but that is it.

For the most part I have no complaints with performance on any game I have played, either.

 

[miniMUNCH]

I guess one other thing I'll chip in...

Is DX10 on XP doable... sure it is. Hell, if MS wanted to invest the money it could put together DX10 for Linux, OS X, etc.

ButMS would be crazy to do it... it would cost a lot, consume valuable developer time and effort, would canabalize a portion of Vista sales, and they would piss off many hardware manufacturers who may be obliged to support the new driver model. Not to mention the possible problems that could be caused in other aspects of XP (stability, security holes, etc.).

All things considered, I think MS is by-and-large very reasonable in terms of OS support. They support their OS's for far longer than Apple and at less or roughly equivalent cost than most business/enterprise linux vendors.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: apoppin
oh, Gstanfor says 'hi' and that he won't be coming back here to ATF video
[even if he could]

He was banned? For what?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: apoppin
oh, Gstanfor says 'hi' and that he won't be coming back here to ATF video
[even if he could]

He was banned? For what?

i have no idea. i wasn't mod until Wednesday. G and i used to very occasionally PM and email each other. He just dropped me an email to say he would not be back even if they 'begged' him and wished us well.
i guess you can catch him at one of the nvidia forums or Australia tech forums ... i forgot where.

 

[dreddfunk]

UNFORTUNATELY, this self-assuredness and pride often leads to poorly-chosen words, offense given and taken and then the inevitable escalation into flaming, name-calling and rude insults.

Truer words have rarely been spoken.

The heated discussions are FINE. Attack the IDEA - as cleverly as you can manage - but not the POSTER who put forth his ideas

We are just going to demand a higher level of respect shown for each other.

These two statements, however, I have a hard time reconciling. I typically don't 'attack' the ideas of people to whom I am showing respect. I discuss their ideas, somewhat critically, but with a great deal of courtesy as befits someone you 'respect'.

Heated exchanges where two parties are actively attacking each others' ideas almost inevitably lead to the "poorly-chosen words" etc.

Generally speaking, most people are quite civil when they feel that you are discussing their ideas as if they are thoughts to really consider, and not attacking them as if they are debating points to be won. It's playful semantics, I know, but there is a difference between 'energetic discussions' and 'heated arguments'.

Just my two cents (as always) for the youthful moderators (I said youthful moderators, not youthful in any other way) of the video forum. ;-)

As for DX10 on XP, it really doesn't bother me too much. At some point we were going to go to an API that XP couldn't handle. Did DX10 have to be that API? I don't know. Even if it didn't, however, DX9 codepaths are likely to be supported pretty far into the future, and the visual benefits of DX10 modest until the hardware gets better.

 

[dreddfunk]

tanish - honestly, my friend, whatever your personal opinion of appopin may be, I would suggest that you keep it a personal opinion at this stage. We all have significant differences with one another, and we all need to learn to moderate ourselves when it comes to expressing those differences.

Apoppin and Keys have been appointed moderators. They have done nothing as moderators to merit any censure at this point. At the very least, we need to give them a fair chance to be good moderators (if not offer them our willing help, advice and support in their efforts to do a very tough job).

Baiting them into poor behavior though name-calling, strikes me as counter-productive. Responsibility changes people, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, but it always changes people. If you feel that apoppin needs to change in order to become a responsible moderator, then I'd respectfully ask you to give him that chance [edit] (if not actively help him to become so) [/edit].

Cheers.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: dreddfunk

UNFORTUNATELY, this self-assuredness and pride often leads to poorly-chosen words, offense given and taken and then the inevitable escalation into flaming, name-calling and rude insults.

Truer words have rarely been spoken.

thank-you ... it is my observation after more than 7 years at ATF

The heated discussions are FINE. Attack the IDEA - as cleverly as you can manage - but not the POSTER who put forth his ideas

These are NOT my words. i am paraphrasing the "official word" on this. You need to realize that this is a "forum" - PUBLIC ENTERTAINMENT... in a tradition that goes back at least a couple of thousand years ... where ideas were freely debated and heated discussions and disputes arose. Yet out of these forums arose the Great Thinkers of the Ancient Age including Socrates and Plato. i also believe that diamonds are formed out of Heat and Extreme Pressure.

We are just going to demand a higher level of respect shown for each other.

These two statements, however, I have a hard time reconciling. I typically don't 'attack' the ideas of people to whom I am showing respect. I discuss their ideas, somewhat critically, but with a great deal of courtesy as befits someone you 'respect'.

Heated exchanges where two parties are actively attacking each others' ideas almost inevitably lead to the "poorly-chosen words" etc.

of course, that is why WE are here - the moderators - to "restrain" the debate when it crosses that very fine line and becomes offensive

EDIT/Also you have to realize that we cannot mandate respect - some people will never respect the other person and genuinely believe them to be a fool - BUT we can insist that disrespectful behavior not be shown./EDIT

Generally speaking, most people are quite civil when they feel that you are discussing their ideas as if they are thoughts to really consider, and not attacking them as if they are debating points to be won. It's playful semantics, I know, but there is a difference between 'energetic discussions' and 'heated arguments'.

Just my two cents (as always) for the youthful moderators (I said youthful moderators, not youthful in any other way) of the video forum. ;-)

Your comments are always welcome. Yet you have to also consider into this mix of excited fans are also the viral marketers and trolls who love nothing more than to incite a riot when a topic is not going their way. We are the "forum brakes" for that sort of behavior.

As for DX10 on XP, it really doesn't bother me too much. At some point we were going to go to an API that XP couldn't handle. Did DX10 have to be that API? I don't know. Even if it didn't, however, DX9 codepaths are likely to be supported pretty far into the future, and the visual benefits of DX10 modest until the hardware gets better.

i dunno ... MS had to sell Vista and DX10 is part of the hype ... i think it would be foolish to backpedal from a business standpoint

what i am not so sure of is the resistance to Vista
finally - after a week of "hands on" with the updated OS, it is a HELL of a lot better than XP

XP is frankly primitive in comparison ... and to think that some of you guys told me i was out-of-date for using Win2K ...
Get with the program or get Linux

EDIT: and when you see motion blur implemented in Lost Planet ... there is NO going back to the DX9 pathway
i am planning on a 2nd 2900xt/booster PS ... and - right now - playing these new games on my 19" CRT at 10x7

 

[dreddfunk]

apoppin - Frankly, I think you misunderstand my views on the nature of this board, moderators, and the dialectical process, but this really isn't the place to hash out the miscommunication. If you're interested in hearing my views in detail, you can always PM. Otherwise, case closed. Good luck to both of you (yourself and Keys) going forward.

On the DX10 score, I didn't mean to say that I thought MS should backpedal at all, quite the reverse in fact. They made a decision. They should stick to it. Changing it this late in the game would be problematic and likely create more problems than would be solved.

I haven't been able to use it, but Vista looks promising as a GUI to me as well. If I have significant reservations, they involve the increased memory requirements, as well as the extra steps one has to take to reinstall a legitimate copy of some versions of Vista on new hardware. The lengths to which MS feels forced to go in order to curb piracy make me wish even more for Linux to grow its user-base.

Cheers.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: dreddfunk
apoppin - Frankly, I think you misunderstand my views on the nature of this board, moderators, and the dialectical process, but this really isn't the place to hash out the miscommunication. If you're interested in hearing my views in detail, you can always PM. Otherwise, case closed. Good luck to both of you (yourself and Keys) going forward.

On the DX10 score, I didn't mean to say that I thought MS should backpedal at all, quite the reverse in fact. They made a decision. They should stick to it. Changing it this late in the game would be problematic and likely create more problems than would be solved.

I haven't been able to use it, but Vista looks promising as a GUI to me as well. If I have significant reservations, they involve the increased memory requirements, as well as the extra steps one has to take to reinstall a legitimate copy of some versions of Vista on new hardware. The lengths to which MS feels forced to go in order to curb piracy make me wish even more for Linux to grow its user-base.

Cheers.

i agree ... here is not the place
... the locked topic at the top is the place actually

as to "activation", Vista is much less of a "nag" than XP ... and THIS article on the 2GB "barrier" is worth reading for everyone

A Messy Transition: Practical Problems With 32bit Addressing In Windows

Vista blew my mind ... it is simply the best OS from MS

 

[BFG10K]

He just dropped me an email to say he would not be back even if they 'begged' him

Trust me, that's not going to be happening anytime soon.

 

[CrystalBay]

ATI got screwed on this deal for sure , because they were planing from the get go for more virtualization in the API

 

[Blazer7]

Is DX10 on XP doable ? It is true that the Inq is not the most reliable source but this is not just an article. There are quite a few articles floating all over for quite some time now as this is a big issue for some. People do not really care how a DX10 game can be made to work with XP+DX9. They don't care about the details regarding OS drivers, APIS etc. All they are interested in is the prospect of it. DX9 is not so bad for all people out there and for some, playing DX10 games even at DX9 quality is preferable to buying a new OS and have their graphics/memory upgraded just for gaming. I do not know many people that can afford an 8800GTX + Vista + extra RAM just for gaming.

Some of the articles below have been written months ago and there are a lot more out there.

http://www.techlivez.com/2007/...hacked-to-work-on.html

http://pc.boomtown.net/en_uk/a.../art.view.php?id=14287

http://maxpctech.blogspot.com/...r-windows-appears.html

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39095

http://alkyproject.blogspot.com/

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40913

http://www.extremetech.com/art.../0,1697,1941407,00.asp

http://www.firingsquad.com/har...hics_preview/page8.asp

xtknight raised an interesting question about most games having a DX9 mode as well or not. According to the last link above and logic, they must. Most people are stuck with XP, DX9 or even DX8 hardware. For most of them it doesn't really make sense to invest in a brand new pc + OS just for gaming and for game developers it doesn't make any sense to release a DX10 only game as this will attract just a handfull of pc gamers and leave the vast majority out in the cold.

This in turn raises some other questions. Is it possible that some game developers chose to ignore the vast majority of pc gamers out there ? Most unlikely. Is it possible that some of them decided for whatever reason (support for Vista, etc) to release their titles with the DX9 mode locked ?

The thing is that some guys out there claim to have cracked/patched/converted (or whatever else) a couple of DX10 titles so that they can work under XP+DX9. If this is the case then these guys have either unlocked a locked DX9 mode in these titles or they just did what they claim. At least this is my understanding so far.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven

Originally posted by: dreddfunk

I'm fairly certain that if I was trolling, flaming, name calling as you say, no such invitation would have been graciously extended to me, or any other new moderator here.

Congratulations to both you and apoppin for being appointed moderators. I wouldn't necessarily agree with your logic, however.

While you've both shown a passion for video-related issues, have been somewhat even-handed in your reactions to the ATI/nVidia debate and are also frequent posters on the boards, none of us are immune to poorly-considered words, rash statements and incivility.

Recall the Roman generals who were accompanied by a slave on their victory parade, who whispered the words, "memento mori," in their ears even as the general basked in the adulation of Rome's populace. This is the line famously rendered "Remember, thou art mortal" in English.

Great job on the review my friends, and your appointments as moderators. Maybe you all can coordinate a GTS 320 vs. GTS 640 shootout at various resolutions & AA settings.


Cheers...and...

[whispers]

Memento mori.

appopin was appointed. :shocked: DAMN. he's the worst troll rivalled only by gstanfor himself.

the mods must not come here at all.
anyone remember his xbox and ps3 thread sometime ago.

i guess the administration didn't care enough about your opinion when they invited me to moderate Video and CPU forum

BUT thanks for reminding me ... i'll be sure to update the "John Romero" thread for you
... there is a lot of new info that came out while i was benchmarking 2900xt vs. GTS-640

oh, Gstanfor says 'hi' and that he won't be coming back here to ATF video
[even if he could]

well my point was the admins clearly didn't see your threads before appointing you. but if you improve the forum i'll have to complaints. time will tell. and please the console thread was the worse piece of garbage. you hardly understood what was going and made a thread about how consoles were going to die.

similar to what the inquirer does.

<-- hugs his xbox 360 and wii.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: apoppin
oh, Gstanfor says 'hi' and that he won't be coming back here to ATF video
[even if he could]

He was banned? For what?

i have no idea. i wasn't mod until Wednesday. G and i used to very occasionally PM and email each other. He just dropped me an email to say he would not be back even if they 'begged' him and wished us well.
i guess you can catch him at one of the nvidia forums or Australia tech forums ... i forgot where.

really. that is funny. maybe he got fired for whoever he worked to market nvidia.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Originally posted by: dreddfunk
tanish - honestly, my friend, whatever your personal opinion of appopin may be, I would suggest that you keep it a personal opinion at this stage. We all have significant differences with one another, and we all need to learn to moderate ourselves when it comes to expressing those differences.

Apoppin and Keys have been appointed moderators. They have done nothing as moderators to merit any censure at this point. At the very least, we need to give them a fair chance to be good moderators (if not offer them our willing help, advice and support in their efforts to do a very tough job).

Baiting them into poor behavior though name-calling, strikes me as counter-productive. Responsibility changes people, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, but it always changes people. If you feel that apoppin needs to change in order to become a responsible moderator, then I'd respectfully ask you to give him that chance [edit] (if not actively help him to become so) [/edit].

Cheers.

haha nicely put.
see my post's above. i wasn't baiting them simply pointing out that there have "BEEN" times when appopin "MIGHT" have trolled the forum. besides i'm bored and this thread is going no where.

 

[Acanthus]

Keys, make my C2D crash free at 3.6ghz.

Thanks.

Really though, this has BS written all over it, especially since nvidia and MS are on the outs after the xbox fiasco.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven

Originally posted by: dreddfunk

I'm fairly certain that if I was trolling, flaming, name calling as you say, no such invitation would have been graciously extended to me, or any other new moderator here.

Congratulations to both you and apoppin for being appointed moderators. I wouldn't necessarily agree with your logic, however.

While you've both shown a passion for video-related issues, have been somewhat even-handed in your reactions to the ATI/nVidia debate and are also frequent posters on the boards, none of us are immune to poorly-considered words, rash statements and incivility.

Recall the Roman generals who were accompanied by a slave on their victory parade, who whispered the words, "memento mori," in their ears even as the general basked in the adulation of Rome's populace. This is the line famously rendered "Remember, thou art mortal" in English.

Great job on the review my friends, and your appointments as moderators. Maybe you all can coordinate a GTS 320 vs. GTS 640 shootout at various resolutions & AA settings.


Cheers...and...

[whispers]

Memento mori.

appopin was appointed. :shocked: DAMN. he's the worst troll rivalled only by gstanfor himself.

the mods must not come here at all.
anyone remember his xbox and ps3 thread sometime ago.

i guess the administration didn't care enough about your opinion when they invited me to moderate Video and CPU forum

BUT thanks for reminding me ... i'll be sure to update the "John Romero" thread for you
... there is a lot of new info that came out while i was benchmarking 2900xt vs. GTS-640

oh, Gstanfor says 'hi' and that he won't be coming back here to ATF video
[even if he could]

well my point was the admins clearly didn't see your threads before appointing you. but if you improve the forum i'll have to complaints. time will tell. and please the console thread was the worse piece of garbage. you hardly understood what was going and made a thread about how consoles were going to die.

similar to what the inquirer does.

<-- hugs his xbox 360 and wii.

sure they did ... a mod was assigned to "follow me" for quite some time -
i am guessing for months

as to the Console thread, i guess you didn't quite understand it ... the entire thread - chock full of good info - was nearly a parody of the frequent "PC gaming is Dead" threads that have been popping up in Games and Video for many years

seriously, it needs updating ... Sony did what i said they must do - drop $150 off it's price to compete with the Xbox360.

after blaming me, Sony follows my analysis to its logical conclusion ...
i guarantee they will do a lot better now.


as to

Nvidia too thick to implement virtualised graphics memory.

i doubt we will ever know. i don't think MS would ever cut nvidia any "slack" as they were working pretty closely with ATi then.

More likely theInq editor is having a slow news day and is noticing his ad revenue is down ... hmmm ... speculation never hurt theInq's credibility before
:music:" ... nothing from nothing is nothing ... " :music:

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: dreddfunk
apoppin - Frankly, I think you misunderstand my views on the nature of this board, moderators, and the dialectical process, but this really isn't the place to hash out the miscommunication. If you're interested in hearing my views in detail, you can always PM. Otherwise, case closed. Good luck to both of you (yourself and Keys) going forward.

On the DX10 score, I didn't mean to say that I thought MS should backpedal at all, quite the reverse in fact. They made a decision. They should stick to it. Changing it this late in the game would be problematic and likely create more problems than would be solved.

I haven't been able to use it, but Vista looks promising as a GUI to me as well. If I have significant reservations, they involve the increased memory requirements, as well as the extra steps one has to take to reinstall a legitimate copy of some versions of Vista on new hardware. The lengths to which MS feels forced to go in order to curb piracy make me wish even more for Linux to grow its user-base.

Cheers.

i agree ... here is not the place
... the locked topic at the top is the place actually

as to "activation", Vista is much less of a "nag" than XP ... and THIS article on the 2GB "barrier" is worth reading for everyone

A Messy Transition: Practical Problems With 32bit Addressing In Windows

Vista blew my mind ... it is simply the best OS from MS

I wholeheartedly agree on vista, it's definately an enormous leap forward. Im disappointed that WinFS didnt make the cut, however.

Using the 3GB switch on vista32 caused problems nearly across the board in demanding games though

Im going to have to get 4 gigs of ram and vista64 to correct my supcom issues