NVidia Tegra 3 power consumption (AT article)

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sontin

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Sep 12, 2011
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1) He used Windows vs Windows, with ostensibly the same browser (IE10) on each platform, therefore making it comparable.
Comparing Android/Mozilla Tegra 3 to Windows/IE x86 would be dumb. If you want consistency, you have it... by doing what Anand did.

Who cares about the OS when Intel wants to compare their processor to the competition? Do you see a Windows RT tablet with ATOM? It's obvious why they used Windows RT and not Android for Tegra3.

2) Comparing 32nm Atom to 40nm Tegra 3 makes sense because THAT'S WHAT'S ON THE MARKET.

Tegra 3 is on the market since December 2011. Why did Intel wait over a year for this test? :whiste:
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
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Because Atom based Windows 8 tablets haven't been on the market for a year.
Are you being deliberately stupid, or is it an accident?

And we need Windows 8 for this? :hmm:
There are ATOM tablets out since months and years. But i guess they needed their 32nm process to beat Tegra 3. :awe:


Medfield and it's losing to ARM.
 

notty22

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2010
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Because Atom based Windows 8 tablets haven't been on the market for a year, nor have any Windows RT tablets.
Are you being deliberately stupid, or is it an accident?

Also, they didn't wait a year.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5770/lava-xolo-x900-review-the-first-intel-medfield-phone/6
Atom vs ARM.


I wasn't going to weigh in until you brought up stupid in your argument. You realize the Nexus 7 uses Tegra 3 ? How many atom phones /tablets or phablets are really out there? This is not a Nvidia thing VS the competition, though , I see, some are grasping to straws to make it that. If we went in to Nvidia's labs and had their engineers with probes in various locations in different spots from tablet to tablet with unique hardware, would we see cause to argue the testing?
 

Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
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Turning against Intel when they make nVidia look not to special huh.

Right now Atom beats the pants off Tegra 3 and that is whats on the market. When Tegra 4 is out we can look at this again. When Atom is replaced and Intel use their own GPU we can look at it again.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
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Turning against Intel when they make nVidia look not to special huh.

Right now Atom beats the pants off Tegra 3 and that is whats on the market. When Tegra 4 is out we can look at this again. When Atom is replaced and Intel use their own GPU we can look at it again.

Then explain me this:
Why is Tegra 3 beating Intel's Clover Tail in video playback when we using an Android tablet instead of Windows RT? How could this happen? :hmm:
 

Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
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Then explain me this:
Why is Tegra 3 beating Intel's Clover Tail in video playback when we using an Android tablet instead of Windows RT? How could this happen? :hmm:

You can't compare across different OS's and The Samsung Ativ Smart PC has equal battery life.

Video playback is only one metric of measurement. So I'm not sure where you are going with this.
 

notty22

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Jan 1, 2010
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Turning against Intel when they make nVidia look not to special huh.

Right now Atom beats the pants off Tegra 3 and that is whats on the market. When Tegra 4 is out we can look at this again. When Atom is replaced and Intel use their own GPU we can look at it again.

Not many will disagree that Intel is a Juggernaut type company. And can be in many facets of the electronic industry. That does not mean that every example put forth from them, especially in their labs is ready for the next space launch. Which is something I personally applaud Intel for having in their track record.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
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You can't compare across different OS's and The Samsung Ativ Smart PC has equal battery life.

It's not nVidia's fault that Intel can't supply an Android tablet.
Android is the OS of choice for Tegra 3. Over 90% of all design wins based on Android. Makes no sense to use Windows RT for an architecture comparison when Windows RT is limiting the potential of Tegra 3.

The Samsung Ativ Smart has a 26% bigger battery and gets a shorter runtine than the Transformer Prime.

Video playback is only one metric of measurement. So I'm not sure where you are going with this.
Video playback and "Idle"-time benefit from the 5th core. Tegra 3 is the wrong SoC when someone wants to compare x86 and ARM without a working 5th core.
 

Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
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It's not nVidia's fault that Intel can't supply an Android tablet.
Android is the OS of choice for Tegra 3. Over 90% of all design wins based on Android. Makes no sense to use Windows RT for an architecture comparison when Windows RT is limiting the potential of Tegra 3.

The Samsung Ativ Smart has a 26% bigger battery and gets a shorter runtine than the Transformer Prime.

Video playback and "Idle"-time benefit from the 5th core. Tegra 3 is the wrong SoC when someone wants to compare x86 and ARM without a working 5th core.

I'm sorry, but that logic is poor. When are comparing the architectures you use the same OS. I could say it's not Intel's fault that nVidia couldn't come up with a more elegant Solution for bringing idle power use down. Samsung brought down idle power use without a 5th core.

There is really no point in comparing an Android tablet to a Windows tablet when you are looking at which is the more efficient architecture.

Samsung Ativ Smart PC has a smaller battery and larger display and yet gets better battery life than the Tegra 3 Equipped Surface.

For all we know that advantage will carry over to the Android if there was such a tablet. How much does that 5th core really help idle power use compared to smaller 32nm process.

EDIT: I'm talking about the SOC as a whole, include the process advantage, not just the architecture.
 
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Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
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Turning against Intel when they make nVidia look not to special huh.

Pretty much :p

Haha, get used to it. Intel will crush everyone who they are competing against. AMD, nvidia, whatever... they are the big dog. This is just early in their forays into this area, give them a few years and everyone else will be really behind.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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1) He used Windows vs Windows, with ostensibly the same browser (IE10) on each platform, therefore making it comparable.

Winx86 vs WinARM- I'll let you in on a secret, Windows isn't a Java based OS- he wasn't running anything remotely in the league of being the same OS. x86 Linux and x86 Windows are probably closer on a binary level. Furthermore, both processors have the ability to run an OS that has all of the advantages each SoC brings to the table, to the point that each IHV can optimize the underlying OS themselves to make sure they are getting optimal performance. What's more, that particular OS happens to dominate the market. What we have here is Anand running Crysis under Windows and comparing that to WoW running under Mac OS and saying they are comparable. If he ran Android for both, which is the dominant platform of choice, he would have at least given us non broken numbers- what's worse is he admits that he knows T3 isn't running properly under WinRT.

2) Comparing 32nm Atom to 40nm Tegra 3 makes sense because THAT'S WHAT'S ON THE MARKET.

The 500lb gorilla of the SoC market, Qualcomm, wants to know WTF you are talking about. I can't figure it out either for the record. Do you know what Qualcomm, Samsung and Apple all have in common? They all sell a hell of a lot more SoCs then nVidia and Intel combined *and* they all have much newer chips built on a more recent build process on the market *and* they have sold more of these then Intel has in this market. Anand did *NOT* compare the best available on the market by any stretch of the imagination. Given that he uses this article as x86 vs ARM he should have been using either the S4 Pro or the latest Exynos- he chose instead to use a SoC that is about to be EoL.

Next up, why doesn't Anand compare a Pentium 4 to the latest AMD CPUs, I mean, AMD is behind on process nodes, lets ignore the fact that new AMD processors are competing with new Intel processors, and instead throw in a random old Intel processor instead to compare to. Much more valid.

No, what Anand did was take the latest AMD chip and compare it to Via's latest chip(they still make x86 parts) and surprise, surprise, it won the comparison.

4) READ THE WHOLE DAMNED ARTICLE. PRETTY MUCH EVERY POINT YOU MAKE IS COVERED BY IT.

No, none of the points were covered in anything remotely approaching making anything in that comparison valid. OS choice, SoC choice, lack of GPU performance numbers, honestly it was utterly useless outside of showing that Anand has a new measurement he can take. That was the *only* thing the review showed anyone who follows the market segment.

People on this forum have their head way to far up AMD vs nVidia- in the SoC market Qualcomm is king, Samsung is second- the rest are bit players in SoC manufacture(Apple's SoCs are made by Samsung).

Haha, get used to it. Intel will crush everyone who they are competing against.

Intel was making UP chips in the 90s, they always have been crushed in the segment and been rather pathetic. Look to Larrabee to get an idea of how inept Intel is outside of their native market.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
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There seem to be 4 ARM based Windows RT tablets on the market.
3 of them are Tegra 3 based. The other is a Samsung chip.

You also talk about different operating systems being different.
So you want to compare x86 Windows to ARM Android? Or what?

Here's apparently the first Atom based Android tablet:
http://www.cnx-software.com/2012/12/22/ramos-w32-android-tablet-powered-by-intel-atom-z2460/
Not out yet.
So you want Atom on Win vs ARM on Android and to have that compared? Because that seems pretty dumb.
This was an early piece, and it was noted that more testing will be performed in future with more devices.

I will be trying to replicate this setup on my own with an iPad 4 to see if I can't make it happen without breaking too many devices. We've also just now received the first Qualcomm Krait based Windows RT tablets, which will make another interesting comparison point going forward.

OS choice: Covered by availability. THERE ARE NO OTHER COMPARABLE OPERATING SYSTEMS.
Covered.

SoC choice: What Intel sent (and what is in use). With FUTURE WORK TO BE DONE ON OTHER SOCs.
Covered.

Lack of GPU performance numbers:
"While we don't yet have final GPU benchmarks under Windows RT/8 that we can share numbers from..."
"NVIDIA's GPU power consumption is more than double the PowerVR SGX 545's here, while its performance advantage isn't anywhere near double."
Covered.

He used an SoC which is in 75% of shipping (as far as I can tell) Windows RT devices. Seems pretty reasonable to compare against shipping Windows 8 devices. With a note that he would compare another SoC from another Win RT device when that is received (it does not yet appear to be in any shipping devices).

WinRT is also probably optimised for Tegra 3, given that's what 75% of current devices run, and what Microsoft's own in house tablet runs. So that's best case for Tegra 3 given the inherent limitation of WinRT. Tegra 4 is also indicated to have a companion core, if that works in the same way as Tegra 3, it will also not work under Windows RT.

Covered doesn't mean that everything has been fully investigated to find the truth, it means it's been discussed and either explained or noted as an issue, or it's just blindingly obvious.
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
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Some of you seem to forget that Anand didn't set the test machines, it was Intel that set it up he only used what was offered to him.
 

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
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There seem to be 4 ARM based Windows RT tablets on the market.
3 of them are Tegra 3 based. The other is a Samsung chip.

You also talk about different operating systems being different.
So you want to compare x86 Windows to ARM Android? Or what?

I think they should add the Dell XPS 10 to the mix, it has a 28nm dual core ARM chip.

http://www.knowyourmobile.com/comparisons/1706975/dell_xps_10_vs_microsoft_surface_rt.html

There is a 28nm Qualcomm Windows RT tablet available.

Some of you seem to forget that Anand didn't set the test machines, it was Intel that set it up he only used what was offered to him.

Anandtech is a big enough site that they shouldn't have a problem acquiring additional hardware to compare. Granted it might make Intel angry to stray from the comparison Intel wants to make.
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
977
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Anandtech is a big enough site that they shouldn't have a problem acquiring additional hardware to compare. Granted it might make Intel angry to stray from the comparison Intel wants to make.

I doubt Anand has enough time, experience/knowledge or equipment to hook up another tablet the same way as the others.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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You also talk about different operating systems being different.
So you want to compare x86 Windows to ARM Android? Or what?

x86 Windows vs ARM Android is a far more accurate comparison when looking at power usage which is what this article claims to be. Windows 8 versus Windows RT shows us nothing, I could make a ROM for Android that looked like Windows 8, on a binary level it would probably be about as close as x86 Windows vs Windows RT. Ignoring that though, run Android on both. Intel has their own builds of Android. The basis of this article is performance versus power usage, Anand makes shockingly ignorant claim that Intel is looking good in that aspect based on a laughably terrible comparison.

OS choice: Covered by availability. THERE ARE NO OTHER COMPARABLE OPERATING SYSTEMS.

They didn't use a comparable operating system, not even close. They chose a crippled OS for ARM versus the driving OS for all of x86. If you want to look at power usage models, which is the obvious lie they present this article under, then compare it to an OS that is capable of using the power saving features of the horribly out of date SoC you chose to rig the test with.

SoC choice: What Intel sent (and what is in use). With FUTURE WORK TO BE DONE ON OTHER SOCs.
Covered.

No, it isn't. If Anand handled his launch review for the 680 GTX against the 6970 this forum would have been in a fit of rage. That would have been closer to even then what Anand did in this test. The S4 Pro has been out longer then the 7970 was when 680 GTX hit. I don't think you comprehend how crooked this test was and how badly rigged it was to prove their agenda.

Lack of GPU performance numbers:
"While we don't yet have final GPU benchmarks under Windows RT/8 that we can share numbers from..."
"NVIDIA's GPU power consumption is more than double the PowerVR SGX 545's here, while its performance advantage isn't anywhere near double."
Covered.

The GPU power numbers are less then meaningless without performance numbers. That isn't remotely in the league of being covered. Again, they should be going against the S4 Pro, not the Tegra 3, for this comparison anyway. Rigged test is rigged.

He used an SoC which is in 75% of shipping (as far as I can tell) Windows RT devices.

Based on early sales estimates Windows RT for the *year* is going to hit about one quarter of what Android will sell *today*. This is supposed to be about ARM vs x86- I don't understand why we are discussing a miniscule niche OS as being the driving force behind comparing hardware architectures.

WinRT is also probably optimised for Tegra 3

The power saving core *DOES NOT WORK*. A main driving force behind the entire SoC is non functional, and you are going to try, with a straight face, to say that is optimized? This article was supposed to be comparing x86 to ARM, Tegra 3 shouldn't have been used at all, but then they take that seriously outdated SoC and cripple the hell out of it for their comparison? Obnoxiously stupid PR stunt, it is not defensible.

Tegra 4 is also indicated to have a companion core, if that works in the same way as Tegra 3, it will also not work under Windows RT.

BlackBerry is more important then Windows RT. People can try and rub one out over MS's tablet OS, it has been a profound failure. Right now Android and iOS dominate the market, why are we looking at benches from a failed OS?

If Anand reviews the 780 and 8970 under Linux are you going to try and defend that too? You may think that is extreme, and you would be right, because Linux has a higher share of the desktop gaming market then WinRT has of the tablet market.

Covered doesn't mean that everything has been fully investigated to find the truth, it means it's been discussed and either explained or noted as an issue, or it's just blindingly obvious.

Covered would be saying *I'm working as a paid shil for Intel*. Other then that it wasn't covered, it was just an attempt at explaining why they are wasting bandwidth with useless information.
 

tviceman

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Mar 25, 2008
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Pretty much :p

Haha, get used to it. Intel will crush everyone who they are competing against. AMD, nvidia, whatever... they are the big dog. This is just early in their forays into this area, give them a few years and everyone else will be really behind.

The fact that there is already millions of ARM based applications, and a billion ARM based smart phones and tablets, ARM as an architecture is an extremely well established platform that isn't going to fade away. Intel may or may not permanently surpass all the other players in the mobile space (they're mGPU's are still absolutely terrible and they just now caught up with Tegra 3 in cpu performance woo f*cking hoo! Krait, Swift, and the latest Exynos chips are all better than Clover Trail and Tegra 4 will be better than all of them) but even with technological superiority they still have to overcome platform dominance.

I definitely think there will be some further consolidation in the mobile space, and Nvidia may feel the squeeze moving into the future if they can't get a step ahead of Qualcomm, but for now none of the major players are currently under immediate threat by Intel.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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You guys are aware that the fundamental Atom architecture in "Clover Trail" is, what? 4 years old now? And it's still competitive with Krait and A6?

I would not count Intel out until "Silvermont". If that does not take decisive leadership, then sure. Intel stinks and they will probably lose the low power space because they obviously aren't trying.

But when has Intel not eventually dominated a market that it felt truly threatened in?

Server chips?
Desktop CPUs?
Notebook CPUs?
Enterprise SSDs?
 

dagamer34

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2005
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You guys are aware that the fundamental Atom architecture in "Clover Trail" is, what? 4 years old now? And it's still competitive with Krait and A6?

I would not count Intel out until "Silvermont". If that does not take decisive leadership, then sure. Intel stinks and they will probably lose the low power space because they obviously aren't trying.

But when has Intel not eventually dominated a market that it felt truly threatened in?

Server chips?
Desktop CPUs?
Notebook CPUs?
Enterprise SSDs?

The sad thing is when they do dominate in a field, they tend to fall asleep at the wheel in an attempt to rake in maximum profits. I mean, the Atom architecture is indeed 4 freaking years old. There's no way they'd have kept such an old core if AMD had the ability to apply real market pressure on Intel (which is kinda sad).
 
Mar 10, 2006
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The sad thing is when they do dominate in a field, they tend to fall asleep at the wheel in an attempt to rake in maximum profits. I mean, the Atom architecture is indeed 4 freaking years old. There's no way they'd have kept such an old core if AMD had the ability to apply real market pressure on Intel (which is kinda sad).

Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge, and Haswell have all been extremely excellent designs, even though Intel's Nehalem could slap Bulldozer silly.

Intel fell asleep at the wheel with Atom because it was not really all that important. it was "good enough" for the segments it was going after.

There is now much more at stake and much larger a market opportunity for Atom. Expect the focus to increase proportionally.
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
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OS choice: Covered by availability. THERE ARE NO OTHER COMPARABLE OPERATING SYSTEMS.

Untrue. There are Chromebooks running Chrome OS on both ARM and x86 (Celery & Atom). Easy comparison, just google it.
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
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Edit: Rofl, Ben really has an axe to grind. Good catch, though. (To be fair, all the numbers seem discrepant from review to review and I have no idea what kind of Atom that is in the graph, faster than Swift and almost as fast as Exynos 5?!)

Let's take a look at the performance numbers, how about we start with Kraken?

Atom- 33K ms
Tegra 3- 49.6K ms

Lower numbers are better, but what if we compare that to a mystery CPU from a prior review done right here on AT-

Mystery SoC- 22.7K

Hmmm, so the mystery SoC is ~50% faster then the Atom which is ~50% faster then the Tegra 3. What is the mystery SoC? Tegra 3-

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6425/51299.png
 
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