Nvidia refresh?

[edplayer]

looks like this was out a few days ago but no one posted it?

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/..._Up_of_New_Architectures_in_Three_Months.html


if a repost, please lock.

 

[happy medium]

looks like this was out a few days ago but no one posted it?

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/..._Up_of_New_Architectures_in_Three_Months.html


if a repost, please lock.

Everyone is in denial?

You don't really think Nvidia has nothing going on till late next year, did ya?

 

[Lonyo]

You could read it as NV saying they will refresh Fermi next year, and that when they introduce new architectures, they will aim to get a full product lineup out in 3 months, rather than the 6+ months it's taken Fermi to not get completed.

There's nothing that says the Fermi refresh will be out in 3 months, in fact the article says "coming next year" which is definitely more than 3 months, since there are 3 months and a week left of this year.

1) There will be mid-life refreshes.
2) A refresh will be coming to Fermi in 2011.
3) When a new generation is launched, there should be top to bottom products within 3 months of launch.

(Fermi launched in April 2010, and now it's end of September and we've got 3 different GPUs in products, with 5 different products priced from $130 to $500, with the sub $130 market still using older products, ATI launched the HD5xxx series from September to February, which counts as a full refresh of their lineup).


I don't think anyone was in denial that NV would refresh Fermi, and it's not unreasonable that such a refresh would be out in early 2011, so it's nothing new.
They were even talking about the Fermi refresh not having been delayed by Fermi issues back in what, February? Back then, everything else was on track, including the Fermi refresh, and people were asking whether it was worth buying Fermi based products when a refresh might be out before the end of this year.


Edit:
Here's your thread happy_medium, on the planned Fermi refresh:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2044979

Back in January, the refresh was possibly coming in 2010.
Now it's gone from late 2010 to some time in 2011.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Maybe we'll see the 475 this year after all.

 

[happy medium]

I don't think anyone was in denial that NV would refresh Fermi, and it's not unreasonable that such a refresh would be out in early 2011, so it's nothing new

So there gonna refresh the Fermi line in mid 2011 and have a new chip in late 2011 also?
Or are you also saying there will no refresh at all?
I see it as refresh at the end of 2010/ early 2011 and a new gpu by next black friday (guessing).

"Jen-Hsun Huang, the chief executive officer of Nvidia, said at a press conference during GPU Technology Conference (GTC) that the company would ramp up top-to-bottom family of graphics chips with new architectures in three months time, reports Tech Report web-site."

So he meant 3 months after they release the new Fermi in Q4 next year?

 

[Skurge]

what exactly is a refresh?

Is RV790 a refresh of RV770 or is cypress the refresh to RV770?

Just using an example.

 

[RussianSensation]

Maybe we'll see the 475 this year after all.

No. Fermi refresh will come in 2011, not in 3 months.

It's disappointing that it will take NV almost 12 months from April 2010 Fermi launch before we see a refresh....that's definitely changing of the strategy. Since Fermi got delayed by 6 months, it's even worse that we didn't get a refresh in 2010.

what exactly is a refresh?

Is RV790 a refresh of RV770 or is cypress the refresh to RV770?

Just using an example.

Just a tweak of the original architecture that results in 10-25% performance boost, often accompanied by a smaller node process, 9700Pro --> 9800Pro, 7800GT --> 7950 GT, X1800XT --> X1950XT, 8800GTS 640/320mb (G80) --> 8800GT (G92 core), etc.

 

[Skurge]

No. Fermi refresh will come in 2011, not in 3 months.

It's disappointing that it will take NV almost 12 months from April 2010 Fermi launch before we see a refresh....that's definitely changing of the strategy. Since Fermi got delayed by 6 months, it's even worse that we didn't get a refresh in 2010.



Just a tweak of the original architecture that results in 10-25% performance boost, often accompanied by a smaller node process, 9700Pro --> 9800Pro, 7800GT --> 7950 GT, X1800XT --> X1950XT, 8800GTS 640/320mb (G80) --> 8800GT (G92 core), etc.

So its almost like a refinement if you will.

 

[RussianSensation]

So its almost like a refinement if you will.

To some extent yes. I suppose you can consider the same architecture being "refined" as going from HD4870 to 5870 as well though.

In simple terms, consider a car "facelift" = videocard refresh vs. a new model (which will have different exterior, possibly new engines or may reuse current engines with new interior/exterior, may be a new platform redesign too = brand new architecture).

 

[GodisanAtheist]

NV's gotta be doing something with all those fully enabled GF104's they're producing...

Thats the thing, no one doubts a refresh is coming, but I'm sure more than a few of us think its going to be little more than fully functional cores based on existing product.

480 -> 485 Fully unlocked GF 100

470 -> 475 480 Shader 320-bit GF100

460 -> 460 384SP edition.

Of course I'm probably totally wrong. Expect to hear all about NV's refresh on AMD's 6770 launch day.

 

[edplayer]

http://fudzilla.com/graphics/item/20312-fermi-mid-life-kicker-comes-in-40nm


Nvidia is working on a mid-life kicker chip, something that will eventually replace Fermi and something that will have to deal with the competition until Kepler comes at 28nm.

The new chip is designed to fight the Radeon HD 6000 series and of course Nvidia thinks that it has a clear win, although we quite sure ATI thinks the same and judging by the sucess of the HD 5000 series, its optimism is well founded.

At this pointe we don’t really know, as much of the information we are gathering is contradictory. We believe that Nvidia's kicker comes after Radeon HD 6000 launch, but there is a big chance that you'll see this new Fermi, let’s call it Fermi 1.5 even in late 2010.

These plans are not fixed yet, at least we don’t know that they are, but it looks that Q4 2010 will be quite interesting when it comes to the graphics market.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Everyone is in denial?

You don't really think Nvidia has nothing going on till late next year, did ya?

I would imagine that we may still see a dual GF104 part. Maybe a 512SP GF100 part and a fully enabled GF104. I don't think anyone ever said that Nvidia has no options for any new parts. I just don't think they'll have anything to counter the 6xxx series. It seems a little odd that they are talking about a top to bottom refresh so soon when they don't even have the bottom out yet... where is the GF108? I could see the refresh being another spin on the current parts that uses less power and/or improves yields so the fully enabled parts makes sense. I still don't think they'll have any answer for the Radeon 6xxx parts any time soon, maybe not until 28nm.

 

[Genx87]

I think for their gaming cards a chip based on GF104 is where they would go.

 

[Daedalus685]

I would imagine that we may still see a dual GF104 part. Maybe a 512SP GF100 part and a fully enabled GF104. I don't think anyone ever said that Nvidia has no options for any new parts. I just don't think they'll have anything to counter the 6xxx series. It seems a little odd that they are talking about a top to bottom refresh so soon when they don't even have the bottom out yet... where is the GF108? I could see the refresh being another spin on the current parts that uses less power and/or improves yields so the fully enabled parts makes sense. I still don't think they'll have any answer for the Radeon 6xxx parts any time soon, maybe not until 28nm.

I think folks are slightly misunderstanding what was said. There won't be a top to bottom refresh in 3months. Just that the next refresh (or release) will be top to bottom and, unlike with Fermi, will take 3 months top to bottom.

Nowhere in the article did it say the new cards woudl be out any time before the expected mid generation time frame (which woudl be some time in Q1 2011). What that will be is anyones guess, but I'd put my money on a respun gf104/100 without large disabled chucks.

The only info here is the road map we all saw a bit ago claiming the new generation will be out with each new node, and that in between there will be a small face lift to improve performance. What is new is the quotes from Nvidia claiming that they will never make the same mistake again... All cards in the new line ups will be out close together.

 

[Daedalus685]

I think for their gaming cards a chip based on GF104 is where they would go.

Aye, I'd imagine something akin to the gf104 but larger would do well. I'd expect a simplified gf100 or a scaled up gf104 (6 of one, half dozen another) for the refresh. Simplified as in more efficient gaming performance... not necessarily smaller.

Edit:

What do folks feel is more likely at this point?

- Nvidia has been stockpiling binned gf104 chips and will release a gtx475 with higher clocks and full gf104 core.

or

- With minor refinements across the board we get gf104b with higher clocks, better memory controller, full units (maybe even more by design), and better power consumption.

The former could be released very soon if that is the way they go. I couldn't see a 'gf104b' any sooner than 6 months after gf104.. so mid/late Q1 2011. I'm sure they are working on something, and with the next gen tied to 28nm I'd assume a 'b' of the entire gf10x line likely at some point as otherwise it will be a long wait of sub par cards.

 

[WelshBloke]

Dont they need to get their current full lineout released before doing a refresh?

 

[Lonyo]

Dont they need to get their current full lineout released before doing a refresh?

Um, no?
They refreshed the GTX260/280 cards without releasing a full lineup below them.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Um, no?
They refreshed the GTX260/280 cards without releasing a full lineup below them.

A little different, as Nvidia already had DX10 parts based on G92 to use that just happened to fit nicely below the GTX2XX series. This is not currently the case with DX11 parts.

 

[Genx87]

Aye, I'd imagine something akin to the gf104 but larger would do well. I'd expect a simplified gf100 or a scaled up gf104 (6 of one, half dozen another) for the refresh. Simplified as in more efficient gaming performance... not necessarily smaller.

Edit:

What do folks feel is more likely at this point?

- Nvidia has been stockpiling binned gf104 chips and will release a gtx475 with higher clocks and full gf104 core.

or

- With minor refinements across the board we get gf104b with higher clocks, better memory controller, full units (maybe even more by design), and better power consumption.

The former could be released very soon if that is the way they go. I couldn't see a 'gf104b' any sooner than 6 months after gf104.. so mid/late Q1 2011. I'm sure they are working on something, and with the next gen tied to 28nm I'd assume a 'b' of the entire gf10x line likely at some point as otherwise it will be a long wait of sub par cards.

I think if they go the GF104 route, and it may not be a GF104, but a designed based on it. We will probably see a part with cuda cores rivaling a 480 or more.

 

[Martimus]

IDC, if you are reading this, I have a question for you. If nVidia started working on a new B stepping immediately after finished the final A stepping, how long would that take? Would the new products be coming out around now, or does it take longer? I had always assumed that nVidia would release a higher clocked and more functional version of Fermi once they were able to get a B0 product working.

I am not an expert on foundry work, and I can't even remember the differences between the different types of fab respins (I mostly remember that nVidia did the simple type that doesn't take a long time to implement, but the complicated type would be more likely to solve the issues with power and yield.) That is why I am asking for IDontCare to chime in.

 

[nenforcer]

No doubt they have something in the works but I bet it all depends on how the HD 6000 launch goes next month.

I bet they could easily have something out before the end of this year if the HD 6000 launch is as successful as last years HD 5000 launch.

 

[Lonbjerg]

A little different, as Nvidia already had DX10 parts based on G92 to use that just happened to fit nicely below the GTX2XX series. This is not currently the case with DX11 parts.

You can only go so low, before DX11 (tessalation) becomes a moot point (read: performs so bad/low that it is worthless)...so that argument is kinda flawed.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

You can only go so low, before DX11 (tessalation) becomes a moot point (read: performs so bad/low that it is worthless)...so that argument is kinda flawed.

Not really, because DX11 support is a "checkmark" feature for many people, and necessary for marketing purposes.

We've seen this market-think for 2 decades in the video card market.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Not really, because DX11 support is a "checkmark" feature for many people, and necessary for marketing purposes.

We've seen this market-think for 2 decades in the video card market.

Dosn't alter that fact that the "checkmark" is useless on lower GPU's.
DX11 isn't a big change over DX10...infact it's one of the smaller steps in features if you compare DX8 <-> DX9 <-> DX10 <-> DX11.

There is tessalation which the endusers see.
The reset is for devs.
Coding and fallback path.

It should really have been named DX10.1B

But I guess marketing "won" and we are now stuck with a lot of useless PR-fluff..so much for marketing :thumbsdown:

 

[WelshBloke]

Um, no?
They refreshed the GTX260/280 cards without releasing a full lineup below them.

But Nvidia have said they want to get the next gen full lineout in one go (or over a short time period), so if they release it before this gen is all out it will make a bunch of cards completely pointless