NVIDIA preparing four Maxwell GM204 SKUs (VideocardZ via S/A)

[Atreidin]

It's funny how people tend to have some kind of natural price for something in their head. There's no logical reason for it, other than maybe that's what it used to cost, or that's what something similar used to cost. Well it doesn't anymore, things change, markets change, your dollars become more and more worthless. Things cost what they cost, people are paying for it, so deal with the new reality. If they don't profit off of them at one price, they will reduce it, so if it matters so much to you, don't pay for it. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to feed your hardware addiction. I am no nvidia fan but I am not going to fault them for charging as much as they can get for their products.

 

[NTMBK]

And what do I get for those $100 while AnandTech, ExtremeTech, VR-Zone, X-Bit Labs, Real World Tech,... and all forums are free?

Exclusive stories you don't get elsewhere. Whether you believe those stories are worth the money is a personal choice, obviously. *shrug*

btw, the forums are still free.

 

[exar333]

It's funny how people tend to have some kind of natural price for something in their head. There's no logical reason for it, other than maybe that's what it used to cost, or that's what something similar used to cost. Well it doesn't anymore, things change, markets change, your dollars become more and more worthless. Things cost what they cost, people are paying for it, so deal with the new reality. If they don't profit off of them at one price, they will reduce it, so if it matters so much to you, don't pay for it. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to feed your hardware addiction. I am no nvidia fan but I am not going to fault them for charging as much as they can get for their products.

This.

GPUs are not, and have not (generally) been that cheap.

I spent $250 on a 3dfx Voodoo1 that didn't even do 2D. almost 20 years ago...
NV 8800GTS 320 (mid/upper range) was $350 in 2007
NV 8800GTS 640/GTX were both ~$600 when launched in 2007/2008
AMD x800xt was ~$500-600 10 years ago

CPUs and MBs are cheaper than they were years ago, same with memory. GPUs are pretty similar in price, and you can get SICK displays for the same $$$ as 10-20 years ago.

 

[wasabiman123]

Hmm kind of worries me if they're going to have a 880 Ti AND a 880, seems like an easy way for them to go substantially over 500$ for the flagship... Because there's no way the 880 will be under 500$...

I still have a 2 GB 670, so these cards make sense for me, I don't want to upgrade to another Kepler card. I'll probably proceed with a 4790K build, slap in the 670, and wait for these. When it comes down to it if they're offering 4/8GB versions, I wonder if I'd regret getting the 4GB a couple years down the line. Would make this easier if they have the onchip ARM cores. That's going to be a big deal IMO.

 

[voodoo7817]

I'm on a 560ti and I (attempt to) game at 1440p. Basically no matter what they release in the $225-275 price range will be a worthwhile upgrade and I'm looking forward to it.

 

[n0x1ous]

I'm on a 560ti and I (attempt to) game at 1440p. Basically no matter what they release in the $225-275 price range will be a worthwhile upgrade and I'm looking forward to it.

you can grab a used 290 from ebay right now for $225 and be in 1440p bliss

 

[exar333]

I'm on a 560ti and I (attempt to) game at 1440p. Basically no matter what they release in the $225-275 price range will be a worthwhile upgrade and I'm looking forward to it.

Yeah.

As I am now giving up on 20nm, I want to see how these cards stack-up. I really need more power for my display and the 670 isn't cutting it for new games any more.

 

[TrulyUncouth]

I use to be in the camp belittling people like you, but I think you guys may have been right all along. It does seem like we have given the GPU manufacturers free reign to charge crazy prices.

All the Nvidia fans brag about NV profit margins, but never stop to think that means Nvidia is selling relative performance at a higher price at the expense of the people defending them. I don't think there is much of a solution to the problem at this point.

I do think its funny we talk about fears that Intel will be a sole player in CPU and drive prices up, but they basically have been for years and prices have remained stable, whereas a competitive market for GPU's has led to massive price increases.

I never said it was screwing me over. Read what I actually said. I didn't mention me, or you, or anyone else. I said it screws the market. It empowers the IHV's to overcharge for their mid level design. In the end what they charge is determined by what people are willing to pay. Just like now people being willing to overpay for the same recycled products from the previous gen is going to allow them to charge us flagship pricing for 2nd level products. Once again the GM104 chip is going to be marketed as the 880, when everyone knows it really should be the 860. Then they'll release what should be the 870 as the 980, 880 as 980 ti, and give us the same thing with 2X the VRAM for $1000. I just know that people not only will bend over and say, "Thank you sir may I have another", but others are going to cheer the IHV's on telling them how ZOMG awesome they are.

 

[voodoo7817]

you can grab a used 290 from ebay right now for $225 and be in 1440p bliss

I have nothing against AMD but I'm not a fan of buying computer parts used. I know I probably miss a few deals but I think I also miss a few headaches.

 

[RussianSensation]

Sorry I didn't mean to come over rude. My point is: I don't get this labeling of a GPU being high or mid. I mean you are getting a new GPU which is faster then the top-modell of the previous gen. By definition this is a high-end card. It doesn't matter that they could release an even bigger die. It's a question about price.

This is exactly the type of thinking that's damaging to the GPU industry for PC gamers. In the past, NV almost always released a next generation mid-range card that beat the last gen flagship but they didn't charge $500+ for the new mid-range product. They also didn't release say a GTX460 and call it 480 just because the 460 beat 280/285. In fact, historically speaking what Nv has done with GK104 is the exception, not the norm. In the past, we would get a next gen $200-300 midrange that beat last gen's $500-700 flagship:

Last gen flagship <---- next gen midrange

GeForce 3 Ti500 <--- GeForce 4 Ti 4200 (midrange)
GeForce 4 Ti 4600/4800 <---- GeForce 5700 Ultra (midrange)
GeForce 5950U <--- GeForce 6600GT (midrange)
GeForce 6800 U <--- GeForce 7800/7900GT (midrange)
GeForce 7900GTX <--- GeForce 8800 GTS 320MB/8800 GT (midrange)
GeForce 8800 Ultra <--- GTS 250/GTX 260 (midrange)
GTX 280/285 <--- GTX 460 (midrange)
Vs.
GTX 480/580 <--- ???? Answer: GTX660TI but NV called this card 670/680

If people want to say it doesn't matter if a chip is midrange or high end, the only thing that matters is price, well that the point: in the past Nv would have a midrange $200-300 card beat last gen's $500-700 flagship. Now they release a $500-550 midrange and it's faster than their last gen's $700 flagship. Historically speaking the midrange cards are now 1.5-2x more expensive.

If some people think this is irrelevant to them and they justify that $500-550 for a midrange chip is fine by using 780Ti's overpriced $700 price tag, that's their choice/opinion. However, what if NV released 7900 GT or 8800 GT or GTX 260 for $500-550 and purposely held back 7900GTX / 8800 U / 280/285 only to launch them 15 months later for $700, would that have been OK? I bet if Nv pulled this strategy in the past, PC gamers would not appreciate it at all. It would essentially mean purposely delaying a generation, milking the midrange and withholding back the real flagship. Notice how NV's margins keep rising from 50 to almost 60%.

Of course later the same people shouldn't complain that GPU prices keep rising per mm2 and huge leaps in price/performance are either taking much longer or one has to pay 50-100% more what what used to be $250/500 cards are now $500/700 cards.

What I am saying is it DOES matter because if this continues, why can't NV raise midrange to $700 and flagship to $1000? Where do we as consumers draw the line?

 

[Keysplayr]

I think prices are going up because of the diminishing returns we are starting to see in performance improvements. They can't seem to double the performance per SQmm every gen which used to be every 12-18 months. Now, it's a lot longer between gens and takes that long for the same doubling of performance. I'm probably not wording this as best as I could, but maybe some of you get the idea.

 

[f1sherman]

I am thinking ~400mm2 2560cc 256bit GM204 should equate 780 Ti at same clocks at about 150W.

If they are willing to up TDP(clocks) to 250W, that should give 30% over 780 Ti... providing it's not bw/rop limited :'(

More realistically, I'd expect 20% at ~210W... ballpark.

Oh and I HIGHLY doubt they will have the $#@^ to call it 880 Ti

 

[exar333]

I think prices are going up because of the diminishing returns we are starting to see in performance improvements. They can't seem to double the performance per SQmm every gen which used to be every 12-18 months. Now, it's a lot longer between gens and takes that long for the same doubling of performance. I'm probably not wording this as best as I could, but maybe some of you get the idea.

This is true. The cards are getting more expensive (although not a LOT when you factor in both inflation and other components are cheaper too) you really don't need a card upgrade as often.

I had my 5870 almost 3 years and my 670 for over 2 years now. Both were great. 10 years ago, I would have had to likely upgrade at least one more time over those 5.5 years. Also factor-in that a 2500k CPU purchased 3.5 years ago is STILL pretty much the gold standard.

Those complaining about cost are IMHO cheap. It's no more expensive now really. Think about what is packed-in to a modern GPU vs. even just 5-6 years ago. It is CRAZY. The value-adds such as GPGPU applications, accelerated applications in video/apps, and new features like 3D and such are great too.

 

[tviceman]

What I am saying is it DOES matter because if this continues, why can't NV raise midrange to $700 and flagship to $1000? Where do we as consumers draw the line?

I get your argument, but there are sooo many other tangibles to this discussion that makes it continually hard to argue in favor of your point.

Nvidia beat AMD (in performance) when it released the gtx680 and undercut AMD in the process. Had AMD released the 7970 at $399, we most surely would not have seen the gtx680 at $499. So is it AMD's fault that Nvidia's "midrange" went up in price? No, of course not. But it is one factor to weigh in for this discussion and I think it just shows that prices were heavily inflated on 28nm vs. 40nm. Both companies are guilty of milking situations, Nvidia is usually in a better position to do so.

What if AMD releases a new 385mm^2 die using GCN 2.0 on 28nm in January and beats the 290x by 15-20%, are you also going to label it "mid-range" since it's smaller than Hawaii?

You also have to consider this might be Nvidia's best chip for the next 12 months. Is it still mid-range then?

 

[Cloudfire777]

Prediction time from me. I feel good about the following:

Full GM204/GTX 880 Ti:
2560 Cuda cores @ 1080MHz (Max turbo clock)
20SMM
4GB VRAM @ 1500MHz - 223GB/s bandwidth
TDP: Around 225W

GTX 880 Ti - Full GM204
Performance: 30% faster than GTX 780 Ti
(Maxwell +35% better in performance/core vs Kepler)

GTX 880:
2304 Cuda cores
18 SMM
256bit
About 15% faster than GTX 780 Ti.

GTX 870:
2048 Cuda cores
16 SMM
192bit

GTX 880MX Mobile graphic card:
Exact same specifications as GTX 880 but perhaps slightly lower clocks.

 

[f1sherman]

What if AMD releases a new 385mm^2 die using GCN 2.0 on 28nm in January and beats the 290x by 15-20%, are you also going to label it "mid-range" since it's smaller than Hawaii?

You also have to consider this might be Nvidia's best chip for the next 12 months. Is it still mid-range then?

Of course it is.
Didn't you get the memo - we the consumers have the God given right at 550mm2 chips at 2010. prices.

It's really annoying time and again seeing here intelligent posters arguing about what should be the price of "mid/high-end". And anything else is apparently a rip-off.

I am buying tomato at 4x times its marketing price. You know why?
Because it's fresh and it's domestically grown and it tastes 10x better than the "normal" industrial one.

And that same domestically grown tomato and its taste was a norm 15 years ago.

Am I being ripped off? Of course not - it's worth MORE THAN 4X TO ME.
And I can... you know... chose not to buy it and cry about the olden times.

 

[toyota]

the AMD 7000 series were horribly priced. they offered zero increase in performance per dollar over what the 6000 series launched. in fact on the 7970 you literally got LESS card for your money as the 7970 was 50% more expensive that what 6970 launched at yet only 40% faster. whats funny is that hardly anyone complained about that. so AMD fans had no issue getting nearly 10% LESS performance per dollar but criticized Nvidia for actually giving a 35% performance increase over the 580 for same amount of money. and hell you got a much more efficient card too.

so yeah if AMD would not have gouged the hell out of pricing then Nvidia would not have had the chance to release its mid range card at previous flagship prices. and yes I am aware that AMD priced it against the 580 but again that was crazy to give less performance for your money than previous gen. I dont recall that ever happening with next gen launch.

 

[Anarchist420]

nvidia should be getting their drivers straight before they design new hardware

 

[caswow]

If you Talk about 104 being midrange then tahiti is midrange too

 

[3DVagabond]

He doesn't have any ads. And a "Student" membership is $100 a year, cheaper than many magazine subscriptions.

Given that so many people have been complaining about the "AMD Center" advertising on Anandtech, it's odd to see people objecting to a site that does not raise its money through ads.

It's a personal thing... Some people don't like Charlie.

 

[thilanliyan]

whats funny is that hardly anyone complained about that.

I seem to recall quite a lot of complaining actually, probably from a lot of people who were waiting for cheaper nV cards lol. From what I understand, the new tech processes are getting more expensive, so naturally card prices will go up. I wouldn't really expect one of the first cards on a new process to cost less than one of the last cards on the old process.

 

[3DVagabond]

It's funny how people tend to have some kind of natural price for something in their head. There's no logical reason for it, other than maybe that's what it used to cost, or that's what something similar used to cost. Well it doesn't anymore, things change, markets change, your dollars become more and more worthless. Things cost what they cost, people are paying for it, so deal with the new reality. If they don't profit off of them at one price, they will reduce it, so if it matters so much to you, don't pay for it. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to feed your hardware addiction. I am no nvidia fan but I am not going to fault them for charging as much as they can get for their products.

You are missing the point of what I'm saying. I am blaming the Sheeple, not the companies. It's pretty amazing that people will defend corporations and then say, "don't buy it then" as their comeback. No kidding, don't buy it! Difference is, I'm actually advocating that's what people do, rather than blindly paying more and more and more.

Why is it that as time goes by all other electronics tech gets cheaper, but it's different for Intel, AMD, and nVidia? We have people just chalk it up to inflation when the reality is it's outstripping inflation by an astronomical amount. It's P.T. Barnum marketing. Simply appeal to the least common denominator and sit back in utter amazement as the suckers line up for it.

 

[voodoo7817]

One aspect of the "is it mid-range or high-end" that some of the more negative people might not be focusing on is how R&D costs come into play. For example, it may be that the R&D costs for GM204 dwarf those of the GK104 (I'm not an expert at the nomenclature but I think I got it right). And if that's the case, who are you to say what they should be charging for their product, as long as the market will bear that price. Now, I have no idea if that's the case, but it seems to be another reasonable explanation to me.

Having said all of that, I pretty much only buy 'mid-range' videocards, which is why I'm still sitting on my 560ti. No cards in the last two generations in that price range would have made much of a substantial difference in performance at 1440p, so that's why I'm still waiting.

When NVIDIA or AMD are able to bring 1440p gaming down to the $250 level, I will vote with my wallet and they will get my money.

 

[voodoo7817]

You are missing the point of what I'm saying. I am blaming the Sheeple, not the companies. It's pretty amazing that people will defend corporations and then say, "don't buy it then" as their comeback. No kidding, don't buy it! Difference is, I'm actually advocating that's what people do, rather than blindly paying more and more and more.

Why is it that as time goes by all other electronics tech gets cheaper, but it's different for Intel, AMD, and nVidia? We have people just chalk it up to inflation when the reality is it's outstripping inflation by an astronomical amount. It's P.T. Barnum marketing. Simply appeal to the least common denominator and sit back in utter amazement as the suckers line up for it.

Perhaps it's your tone then that leads people to 'misinterpret' you? Calling people 'sheeple' or a 'sucker' is generally not a good way to get people to agree with you, no matter your main principle or point.

 

[3DVagabond]

Perhaps it's your tone then that leads people to 'misinterpret' you? Calling people 'sheeple' or a 'sucker' is generally not a good way to get people to agree with you, no matter your main principle or point.

You are right. Sometimes though it seems you need to hit people with a 2x4 to get their attention. Keep in mind I'm speaking in generalities when I say that.