Nvidia/AMD/VIA leave Sysmark company Bapco

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Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
1,155
0
0
So now your issue is with its name? :\

Its seems like a very valid point. In what world does something that features two year old technology, get called something that would imply it is ment for the future?

Do not answer that, just acknowledge the point being made.


My speculation is built on firm ground where as your swimming in the ocean being pulled out to sea by undercurrent were you will likely drown. You screamed and screamed for aid but no lifeguard came to your aid.

Sigworthy! mine!
 
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Dravic

Senior member
May 18, 2000
892
0
76
Seems like the correct thing to do for the aggrieved parties.

office apps
web apps
HD video playback
audio and video encoding/decoding
games
windows aero
linux compiz

Seems like the ALL the common computing functions are now GPU accelerated in some form or another. Releasing a benchmark of this caliber(in recognition) that doesn't reflect the current and future shift of parallel computing is neglectful at best, and malfeasance at worst.

When you're left with one manufacture who also chairs the group as your only big name backer, its not looking good.

We'll see how it plays out. AMD/Via/Nvidia better come up with something...
 

formulav8

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2000
7,004
523
126
How important is it for nvidia/amd/via to actively support a specific bench program lke Sysmark?
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Then name it 2010 or 2009. 2012 implys all of the latest and greatest we currently have. Even have tech in the future not invented yet...

Blah to them I say

I hope you can appreciate that this is what happens with your 2012 car/van/truck as well...

The year is a just a label, denotes a numerical succession.

Sysmark2012 can be expected to be the successor to Sysmark2010 inasmuch as a Toyota Sienna 2012 (which itself can be purchased in the year 2011) can be expected to be the successor to a Toyota Sienna 2010 (which went on sale in 2009).

Purchasing a 2012 Toyota Sienna in 2012 (or 2011) does not mean the consumer can expect to be purchasing the latest and greatest that technology has to offer in terms of seatbelt techology, airbag technology, disc-brake technology, power-train technology as the Toyota engineers needed those systems to be fully developed and ready for integration into their 2012 model well before they went on sale in 2012 (or 2011).

Just because IE9 and FF5 come out now does not mean they came out with enough lead time for the Bapco engineers to intersect them and incorporate them into their Sysmark2012 program.

Another point I'll make in regards to the question of the utility of a benchmark that is seemingly out-of-date before it is even released...this benchmark is used as a purchasing decision tool mostly by large-scale institutions...the same institutions that do drag their feet for years before migrating to the latest browsers, apps, and OSes.

An example, my wife works in a large business (~50k employees) in the technology-sector (gas and fine chemicals supplier) and the entire company is using Vista + IE7 as the most modern supported OS and browser.

This fall, Nov timeframe, they are scheduling their first purchases of Win7 equipped computers. They are just not interested in taking ownership of the problems that come with adopting new technology that is usually barely past the beta-testing stage.

For a large company like that, and the institutions in the government, Sysmark2012 probably does represent the sort of application suite that they will actually be using in 2012 and beyond. For better or worse, that's just the reality of the world around us.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
I was also going to use the 2012 auto analogy, but IDC said immensely better than I could have. :D
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,732
432
126
Curiously these are the same forums that dismiss Llano GPU for not being that great in newer games but have no problems when benching new systems with old software...
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Curiously these are the same forums that dismiss Llano GPU for not being that great in newer games but have no problems when benching new systems with old software...

Can't speak for the other members of the forum but personally what bothers me about the Bapco situation is that AMD had 10yrs (see my link to the 2001-2002 broohaha over Bapco and AMD/Intel) to come up with a Plan B in case Plan A failed.

Plan A failed and what happened? They withdraw from Bapco (a good FIRST step) but they do nothing to announce their support for alternative bench XYZ.

Instead they give us a blog with some musings and hopeful aspirations that maybe, perhaps someday, a consortia might form that will develop an open-source bench and justice will prevail for all. Great, way to deftly solve the problem there ace :thumbsup:

So we toss aside Sysmark2012 per AMD's wishes...and bench with what?

They've known Fusion was coming since the day they created the vision...fast forward some 5 or 6 years and it looks like they are playing behind their own 8-ball here.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
Curiously these are the same forums that dismiss Llano GPU for not being that great in newer games but have no problems when benching new systems with old software...

BAPCo = Business Applications Performance Corporation

There's a big difference between the two.

I would expect newly released consumer hardware to be able to run newly released consumer software. Retail consumers adopt technology at much faster pace than corporations.
 
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iCyborg

Golden Member
Aug 8, 2008
1,386
94
91
Without going into the validity of the decision, that example from the blog really does look really bad: one CPU takes 7% more time to complete a bench and that translates to a 40% higher score for the faster CPU in that bench?@!?
Yes, normal users don't rely on sysmark only or at all, but if governments and large corporations really are using it, then it's downright misleading even if we only do comparison among Intel CPUs only. Like 2820QM system is only 20% more expensive but gets 40% bigger score than 2720QM system -> it's so worth it, right...
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
Without going into the validity of the decision, that example from the blog really does look really bad: one CPU takes 7% more time to complete a bench and that translates to a 40% higher score for the faster CPU in that bench?@!?
Yes, normal users don't rely on sysmark only or at all, but if governments and large corporations really are using it, then it's downright misleading even if we only do comparison among Intel CPUs only. Like 2820QM system is only 20% more expensive but gets 40% bigger score than 2720QM system -> it's so worth it, right...

If I am the employee that is trying to convincingly argue with my procurement manager that I need a 2820QM system then you are damn right I want to see them Bapco scores going to 11! :D

Spending your employer's money is the next best thing to being a politician where you get to spend everyone's money...its free to you so why not! ;)
 

Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
1,155
0
0
I hope you can appreciate that this is what happens with your 2012 car/van/truck as well...

The year is a just a label, denotes a numerical succession.

Sysmark2012 can be expected to be the successor to Sysmark2010 inasmuch as a Toyota Sienna 2012 (which itself can be purchased in the year 2011) can be expected to be the successor to a Toyota Sienna 2010 (which went on sale in 2009).

Not sure what your on about. I havent seen cars being labeled "BMW 525 2010" or any other such thing in modern times. Unless its a collectors edition of some oldie and goodie, it just doesnt happen. A BMW 525 concieved in 2011 will be updated year by year in case something needs to be fixed and will also recieve a "midlife" upgrade in terms of both interior and exterior styling as well as enhanced motor and chassis.
More importantly a BMW 525 registered in 2010 is a 2010 model. If registered in 2011, it is a 2011 model.

Im kinda surprised you would use a car analogy IDC, its ..just not you. Is this more damage control and in essence thread derailing? Car analogies..spare us please.

Now to make sure more people get the point im trying to make (i know you get it IDC), we are talking about a synthetic benchmark that like other synthetic benchmarks is going to be tagget in name as a future featured product. We are and have, these two last years (and perhaps for longer) been moving towards a more APU or CPU/GPU based software and solutions. If this is merely a benchmark for heavybottom enterprices (government systems among those), why just not call it 2011?... Its coming out now. in 2011, and is by all accounts not made with 2012 in mind at all.



Purchasing a 2012 Toyota Sienna in 2012 (or 2011) does not mean the consumer can expect to be purchasing the latest and greatest that technology has to offer in terms of seatbelt techology, airbag technology, disc-brake technology, power-train technology as the Toyota engineers needed those systems to be fully developed and ready for integration into their 2012 model well before they went on sale in 2012 (or 2011).

Honestly you dont know much about cars if this is your knowledge regarding the matter. The year of the car has everything to do with purchasing the newest and "best" tech/product.

You seem to be confusing a few things though. this benchmark which you are making a car analogy for, comes out, from what i understand in 2 year intervals. You could compare it to an automobiles midlife or new product update. In either case, you will be expecting the latest available tech. If not, one of your 10 other competitors is going to steal all the thunder.

Look at the sidemirror direction lights. Im not sure who first had them. If it was Mercedes Benz or VAG, but the rest followed pretty quick with their new product launches. Even if they had not planned it during a 5 or so year development process. They knew the tech was available and that their competitors were using it and thus they had to use it to avoid bleeding customers or look "old".

There are other examples. This car analogy thing really kicks itself in the ass doesnt it?..




Just because IE9 and FF5 come out now does not mean they came out with enough lead time for the Bapco engineers to intersect them and incorporate them into their Sysmark2012 program.
Bapco 2012 could come out in 2012 instead and would then have 1 whole year to incorporate "IE9 and FF5 which come out now" as you mentioned it... Why dont they?


Another point I'll make in regards to the question of the utility of a benchmark that is seemingly out-of-date before it is even released...this benchmark is used as a purchasing decision tool mostly by large-scale institutions...the same institutions that do drag their feet for years before migrating to the latest browsers, apps, and OSes.

^ is a good point. but why dont they just call it 2011? whats with the 2012 thing? What exactly is this benchmark going to bechmark in 2012 when AMD, as one of the major chip producers, has fully embraced the APU as their CPU/GPU?...?
Let me make one thing clear. This loser talk is all wrong in my opinion. The only loser here is Bapco and in effect Intel.

*my comments are in bold
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
Can't speak for the other members of the forum but personally what bothers me about the Bapco situation is that AMD had 10yrs (see my link to the 2001-2002 broohaha over Bapco and AMD/Intel) to come up with a Plan B in case Plan A failed.

Plan A failed and what happened? They withdraw from Bapco (a good FIRST step) but they do nothing to announce their support for alternative bench XYZ.

Instead they give us a blog with some musings and hopeful aspirations that maybe, perhaps someday, a consortia might form that will develop an open-source bench and justice will prevail for all. Great, way to deftly solve the problem there ace :thumbsup:

So we toss aside Sysmark2012 per AMD's wishes...and bench with what?

They've known Fusion was coming since the day they created the vision...fast forward some 5 or 6 years and it looks like they are playing behind their own 8-ball here.

This pretty much sums-up AMDs strategy with software, or lack thereof. 'Don't use CUDA, but we will not really support OPENCL or Brook+ much anyways...'

AMD is a bunch of complainers lately who complain about what others do, but always fail to do any action on their own behalf. It is getting old...
 

iCyborg

Golden Member
Aug 8, 2008
1,386
94
91
Not sure what your on about. I havent seen cars being labeled "BMW 525 2010" or any other such thing in modern times. Unless its a collectors edition of some oldie and goodie, it just doesnt happen. A BMW 525 concieved in 2011 will be updated year by year in case something needs to be fixed and will also recieve a "midlife" upgrade in terms of both interior and exterior styling as well as enhanced motor and chassis.
More importantly a BMW 525 registered in 2010 is a 2010 model. If registered in 2011, it is a 2011 model.
...
Have you ever been to a car salon? Take this:
http://www.autos.ca/first-drives/first-drive-2012-ford-focus

It's a test of a 2012 model of Ford Focus. Notice the article was posted on February 2nd, 2011.

The car analogy is very good, and it bugs me on both cases. Or magazines, you could probably buy August 2011 issues of some magazines right now (I remember buying a November issue on Sep 30 back in the days when people still bought magazines). I feel like it should be government banned...
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
1,651
473
136
This pretty much sums-up AMDs strategy with software, or lack thereof. 'Don't use CUDA, but we will not really support OPENCL or Brook+ much anyways...'

AMD is a bunch of complainers lately who complain about what others do, but always fail to do any action on their own behalf. It is getting old...

"Not really support OpenCL"???? Spewing out random ridiculous statements like that just stinks of rotten marketing.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,732
432
126
Can't speak for the other members of the forum but personally what bothers me about the Bapco situation is that AMD had 10yrs (see my link to the 2001-2002 broohaha over Bapco and AMD/Intel) to come up with a Plan B in case Plan A failed.

Plan A failed and what happened? They withdraw from Bapco (a good FIRST step) but they do nothing to announce their support for alternative bench XYZ.

Instead they give us a blog with some musings and hopeful aspirations that maybe, perhaps someday, a consortia might form that will develop an open-source bench and justice will prevail for all. Great, way to deftly solve the problem there ace :thumbsup:

So we toss aside Sysmark2012 per AMD's wishes...and bench with what?

They've known Fusion was coming since the day they created the vision...fast forward some 5 or 6 years and it looks like they are playing behind their own 8-ball here.

So are you telling me the only way to measure performance is doing it using a benchmark that test several applications and then spits a number based on some subjective weighting?

It seems to me it is possible to bypass the subjective weighting and just choose based on the performance of applications that are most important for each user.

Or do we need to use 3dmark to figure which graphic card is faster at game x? I would just measure performance in game x.

And even if AMD came with their own benchmark. So what?

Would it be more or less serious than a benchmark from Intel? Would a benchmark support by AMD and opposed by Intel have more recognition?

I doubt it.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Without going into the validity of the decision, that example from the blog really does look really bad: one CPU takes 7% more time to complete a bench and that translates to a 40% higher score for the faster CPU in that bench?@!?
Yes, normal users don't rely on sysmark only or at all, but if governments and large corporations really are using it, then it's downright misleading even if we only do comparison among Intel CPUs only. Like 2820QM system is only 20% more expensive but gets 40% bigger score than 2720QM system -> it's so worth it, right...


Really whats so bad about that . A good example would be to look at ATs bench marks of the Intel 510 Vs the fastest SSD drive the time in real world isn't that much but to look at it as pure benchmarks the 510 looks to come up way short in the write.
I am sure depending on what your doing those numbers are huge or not so huge If you can't compress the writes its the other way around.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Curiously these are the same forums that dismiss Llano GPU for not being that great in newer games but have no problems when benching new systems with old software...

I don't believe 1 member here doesn't think AMD did a good job on the llano IGP. The cpu sucks big time . Yes the IGP is open cl . But not a lot of support for that at this time .

We all think llano is a good little IGP but it does lose to intel IGP in 2 games . One of those games is a huge hit. weres as the cpu on llano is just bad . BUt both come up short of a gaming rig . The upside is innovation .

Intel intros SB
Later that year AMD intros llano
intel does IB
AMD comes with trinity
Intel haswell next
Than AMD comes with whatever . When your a moving target is harder to hit than a stationary one .
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,732
432
126
I don't believe 1 member here doesn't think AMD did a good job on the llano IGP. The cpu sucks big time . Yes the IGP is open cl . But not a lot of support for that at this time .

We all think llano is a good little IGP but it does lose to intel IGP in 2 games . One of those games is a huge hit. weres as the cpu on llano is just bad . BUt both come up short of a gaming rig . The upside is innovation .

If we were at the VC&G forums you would be saying "Where are the Furmark FPS numbers to go with the power consumption".

So if you pretend for a sec AMD is ATI you would surely be asking "where are the IQ pictures?" or "what happens at higher quality settings?".

Starcraft2%201280.png


Starcraft2%201600.png


Still, that is one game that loves the icore.
 

podspi

Golden Member
Jan 11, 2011
1,982
102
106
Say what you want about AMD and NV being angry about sysmark weighting GPU-related tasks less (or not at all), but what is Via's excuse? Solidarity w/ AMD? ;)
 

halley

Junior Member
Mar 17, 2000
23
0
0
I thought it was obvious, I'm clearly on Intel's payrolls.

Except for that other 50% of the time when I'm posting the "witty" stuff - then I'm clearly on AMD's payrolls.

Some American said, "You can fool somebody but you can't fool everybody forever."
The fact that Intel meekly paid fines levied by EU and $1.5B to AMD speaks for irself.
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81
Some American said, "You can fool somebody but you can't fool everybody forever."
The fact that Intel meekly paid fines levied by EU and $1.5B to AMD speaks for irself.

I don't get why Idontcare caught so much flak in this thread... I thought most of his posts were very good.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
64
91
So are you telling me the only way to measure performance is doing it using a benchmark that test several applications and then spits a number based on some subjective weighting?

It seems to me it is possible to bypass the subjective weighting and just choose based on the performance of applications that are most important for each user.

Or do we need to use 3dmark to figure which graphic card is faster at game x? I would just measure performance in game x.

And even if AMD came with their own benchmark. So what?

Would it be more or less serious than a benchmark from Intel? Would a benchmark support by AMD and opposed by Intel have more recognition?

I doubt it.

The part I bolded, it speaks to the rest of your post.

We aren't dealing with a benchmark here that is geared towards any given user.

The benchmark is intentionally crafted to be usable by procurement offices who are trying to justify volume purchases of computing equipment for a whole spectrum of internal users.

They aren't looking to complicate their job by expanding the test matrix to be "excel heavy for the 112 folks in accounting down in Dallas, and MS Access heavy for the 345 database design engineers in Milwaukee, and browser heavy for the 1134 call center employees in New Delhi".

These guys want a one-size-fits-all benchmark that lets them easily rank-sort the productivity and cost-benefits of a set of computers that they are on contract to purchase from DELL or HP.

Small business and out-of-home businesses that have a much narrower range of apps in-house would obviously seek to find benches that best proxy their apps before attempting to rationalize the cost-benefits for any given purchase.

Its really not so different from the small-scale HPC guys who look at sub-scores in SPEC to find the apps that best proxy their own (I look for the hartree-fock based quant calc apps) and then zero in on rank-sorting those sub-scores for their performance assessments and estimations.

But sysmark is not intended to be the benchmark for the individual user.

That said, this is why AMD should have at the very least taken the time to cobble together some sort of coalition and beta-benchmark (heck even tesselation for the heaven benchmark was done on short notice and little leadtime) to coincide with their announcement yesterday.

It undermines them and their claims when they have nothing to present in terms of corroborating evidence of the sinister things in Sysmark2012 or the benefits of adopting their proposed alternative benchmark XYZ.

Instead we basically have AMD telling literally thousands of large businesses and government orgs that they should ignore the one benchmark that the industry has adopted as the de facto standard and use nothing in its place...uhm that is a non-starter for everyone, why even propose it if that is all you got?

They need a practical solution to the problem, right now they got nothing but Sysmark. (by "they" I mean the businesses and agencies that are required to rely on sysmark for procurement justifications)
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,991
627
126
That said, this is why AMD should have at the very least taken the time to cobble together some sort of coalition and beta-benchmark (heck even tesselation for the heaven benchmark was done on short notice and little leadtime) to coincide with their announcement yesterday.

It undermines them and their claims when they have nothing to present in terms of corroborating evidence of the sinister things in Sysmark2012 or the benefits of adopting their proposed alternative benchmark XYZ.

Instead we basically have AMD telling literally thousands of large businesses and government orgs that they should ignore the one benchmark that the industry has adopted as the de facto standard and use nothing in its place...uhm that is a non-starter for everyone, why even propose it if that is all you got?

They need a practical solution to the problem, right now they got nothing but Sysmark. (by "they" I mean the businesses and agencies that are required to rely on sysmark for procurement justifications)
There is no de facto benchmark, none. And when you think about it, there should NOT be that one benchmark that many rely on. That leaves it far too open to manipulation, which has clearly happened here.
 

jvroig

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,394
1
81
There is no de facto benchmark, none.
Evidently, there is for government purchasing, because they have been using Sysmark for the very purpose of justifying purchases as noted at the very start of the thread, and for countless other big businesses most likely. There always needs to be a standard, because businesses require such, no matter how "quick-and-dirty" they are because their purchasers aren't going to waste time figuring out how many PCs should be of this spec because it is an "Excel machine" versus another that is going to be a "light web browsing with some Word and PPT usage mixed in".

When you (not you specifically, but anybody in the position of AMD/NV/VIA) start requiring purchases/business people to drop an industry standard and replace it with more tedious work (instead of an alternative that is reasonable), you have already lost the argument. The business world just doesn't work like that in general, even if you may know (as I do) some few companies whose IT purchasers are more "hands-on" and tech-oriented in their approach to equipment acquisition.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,732
432
126
The part I bolded, it speaks to the rest of your post.

We aren't dealing with a benchmark here that is geared towards any given user.

The benchmark is intentionally crafted to be usable by procurement offices who are trying to justify volume purchases of computing equipment for a whole spectrum of internal users.

They aren't looking to complicate their job by expanding the test matrix to be "excel heavy for the 112 folks in accounting down in Dallas, and MS Access heavy for the 345 database design engineers in Milwaukee, and browser heavy for the 1134 call center employees in New Delhi".

These guys want a one-size-fits-all benchmark that lets them easily rank-sort the productivity and cost-benefits of a set of computers that they are on contract to purchase from DELL or HP.

While this might be the current situation and probably won't change soon, since huge corporations/governments tend to be quite inflexible, I'm not sure if this actually serves them well.

This seems to be very similar to the credit agency ratings (that are used for governments to decide investments and were ranking subprime credit as AAA and still rate US debt as triple AAA) have the problem of conflict of interests.

Anyway, I don't see what AMD/NVIDIA/VIA lose by leaving - if their claims are correct it isn't like Sysmark isn't already fitting Intel purposes.

When you (not you specifically, but anybody in the position of AMD/NV/VIA) start requiring purchases/business people to drop an industry standard and replace it with more tedious work (instead of an alternative that is reasonable), you have already lost the argument. The business world just doesn't work like that in general, even if you may know (as I do) some few companies whose IT purchasers are more "hands-on" and tech-oriented in their approach to equipment acquisition.

The question is what kind of standard is a standard that isn't endorsed by most players in the industry.

Imagine AMD/NVIDIA/VIA do create an alternative and Intel says "that XYZ standard supported by AMD/NVIDIA/VIDIA doesn't, according to INTEL, actually reflect real life situations".

"For the new department we are buying this equipment based on their XYZ performance."
"Why isn't Intel supporting their XYZ thing?"

If Intel would accommodate to AMD/NVIDIA/VIA requests they could do it inside Sysmark already.

Additionally, it doesn't seem it is all due to the tests chosen but how much they weight in the final score.
 
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