Nvidia accusses ATI/AMD of cheating - Benchmarks

[extra]

Nvidia is sometimes an unusually whiny and unprofessional company. If they put that energy into their products, they'd probably be released more on time. Anyway

Both AMD and Nvidia have solid drivers at this point. Both have nice AA modes. Crossfire and SLI both scale well. I wish my gtx470 had AMD's edge detect mode, and I wish my 5770 had Nvidia's combined ss+msaa modes, etc...w/e.

But you guys that are arguing about value, etc, are all right in a way. Everyone needs to make their own judgement as to what features and performance are worth more $ to them. Nvidia's parts were really late, but that doesn't mean they aren't sometimes the best value. IE, those under $250 gtx470's are an absolute steal, one of the best performance deals ever imho!

Arguing about what parts are/were the better buy for someone else is silly, because it's like arguing about if blue is a better color than red. The only thing that everyone can agree on is:
1. If you can, you're almost always better off waiting, stuff gets cheaper (5850 is the corollary here though).
2. No matter what you buy now, something will soon come along that is better. Such is life.
3. The hot deals forum is bad for your financial health. Did anyone see that gtx470 for under $230??? Nvidia might be dumping, I say--bring it on, if I see the price drop under $200 later this year I'm so grabbing one to SLI.

 

[OCGuy]

Nvidia is sometimes an unusually whiny and unprofessional company. If they put that energy into their products, they'd probably be released more on time. Anyway

I think you could make the same statement about AMD and thier processors. If they actually made processors that people wanted to buy, and marketed them in a way that people would actually buy them, they could stop crying to the DoJ and EU every couple years.

 

[3DVagabond]

I think you could make the same statement about AMD and thier processors. If they actually made processors that people wanted to buy, and marketed them in a way that people would actually buy them, they could stop crying to the DoJ and EU every couple years.

Yeah, that's the same thing.

Although, I do agree that I see parallels with AMD CPU division vs. Intel and nVidia GPU vs. AMD GPU division.

 

[Lonyo]

I think you could make the same statement about AMD and thier processors. If they actually made processors that people wanted to buy, and marketed them in a way that people would actually buy them, they could stop crying to the DoJ and EU every couple years.

Yes, because NV had nothing to do with the recent FTC suit against Intel, and totally didn't help instigate it by suing over the right to make chipsets.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

I think you could make the same statement about AMD and thier processors. If they actually made processors that people wanted to buy, and marketed them in a way that people would actually buy them, they could stop crying to the DoJ and EU every couple years.

Why don't you troll about AMD CPUs in the CPU Forum?

Or, better yet, don't troll at all. :hmm:

 

[Idontcare]

Next three posts (their contents) will determine whether this thread is locked or stays open.

Keep it on-topic or it'll be locked.

Moderator Idontcare

(I'll be back later to see what the forum decided for itself)

 

[SirPauly]

End of. ATI isn't in the wrong, and NV has a valid point.
This is also in the NV reviewer guide, which is a guide for reviewers. Most reviewers should be aware of Catalyst AI and what it does, and all the NV guide does is draw attention to something which is already public knowledge (that Catalyst AI does optimisations) and highlight a possible issue with this with respect to image quality.

I don't think things are black or white or right or wrong but more in the grey area. I'm never for changing things behind the applications back to lower precision and do agree with nVidia -- no matter how subtle. That is where nVidia draws their line in the sand.

It's a bit more cloudy with AMD -- its not the subtle differences that bother me -- I think many gamers would appreciate more smoothness or performance for subtle differences that many wouldn't notice but it is the benching of Dawn of War 2 and Shift that bother me much more considering one was using more precision than the other from my understanding.

This information is in nVidia's reviewers guide but was this information in AMD's reviewers guide? To add less precision and have reviewers bench without maybe saying anything is not the way to go and a bit disingenuous, too.

 

[nemesismk2]

I think some of the ire coming from the populace is due to the perception that Nvidia is struggling to compete with ATI, and have resorted to a mudslinging campaign rather than a product campaign. FWIW.

I agree, Nvidia should get back to doing what they do best which is releasing great video cards. I get the impression that Nvidia is worried because AMD are right on the ball and steaming ahead of them!

 

[Lonbjerg]

I agree, Nvidia should get back to doing what they do best which is releasing great video cards. I get the impression that Nvidia is worried because AMD are right on the ball and steaming ahead of them!

Based on what?
Not DX11 performance...so the goalposts must have shifted?!

 

[nemesismk2]

Based on what?
Not DX11 performance...so the goalposts must have shifted?!

Nvidia's failure to release a full top to bottom product range. You look online and you see a large range of AMD 5000 Series video cards but only a small range of Nvidia Fermi video cards.

AMD have 5900, 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770, 5750, 5600, 5500 and 5400.
Nvidia have 480, 470, 465, 460 and 450.

 

[badb0y]

Based on what?
Not DX11 performance...so the goalposts must have shifted?!

Last time I checked 5970 was the top dog no?

 

[Lonbjerg]

Last time I checked 5970 was the top dog no?

2 GPU's Vs. 1 :biggrin:
Like I said...the goalposts have moved.

Are you saying that a 5970 beats 480 in SLI?

This should be fun...

 

[3DVagabond]

2 GPU's Vs. 1 :biggrin:
Like I said...the goalposts have moved.

Are you saying that a 5970 beats 480 in SLI?

This should be fun...

It's card for card. It doesn't matter what's on the board. If nVidia could beat the 5970 with one card they would and they wouldn't care how many GPU it took. Unfortunately they can't meet the pcie spec and make anything faster than a single GTX-480. Add to that the bar's about to be raised by NI.

 

[Lonbjerg]

It's card for card. It doesn't matter what's on the board. If nVidia could beat the 5970 with one card they would and they wouldn't care how many GPU it took. Unfortunately they can't meet the pcie spec and make anything faster than a single GTX-480. Add to that the bar's about to be raised by NI.

AMD and NVIDIA dosn't make cards.
They make GPU's.
It's about the GPU's.

NVIDIA has fastest DX11 GPU, simple as that.

And I was even nice, I didn't bring up microstuttering, games where multi-GPU dosn't do squat...or the fact that DX11 litterally brings nothing but tessalation to the table for gamers....DX11 is more geared towards developers than gamer (Fallback path, single codepath, more easy to code ect.)

Hence why I still use my GTX285...and opted for a 9800GT as PhysX GPU, instead of buying a DX11 GPU...that would give me nothing ATM.

 

[HurleyBird]

2 GPU's Vs. 1 :biggrin:
Like I said...the goalposts have moved.

Are you saying that a 5970 beats 480 in SLI?

This should be fun...

So... let me get this straight. Nemesis says that it feels like AMD is steamrolling ahead of Nvidia (which is correct, AMD looks to be releasing RV9xx cards before NV releases the last of their RV8xx competitors), and then you change the topic by saying "not in DX11 performance", and accuse him of "moving the goalposts".

And then, badb0y points out that AMD's 5970 is actually the top dog in DX11 performance. In response you point out that it's 2 GPUs vs. 1 GPU and make a silly statement about GTX 480 SLI. Afterwards, you make your favourite accusation about badb0y "moving the goalposts"

The only person "moving goalposts" here is yourself. First, by inserting your interpretation of what "steamrolling ahead" means, and then when someone challenged that slightly off topic statement about DX11 performance, you moved the goalpost from single card to single GPU.

:rollseyes:

The fact is, goalposts are *always* going to be different depending on who you ask. Some will argue single card, some will argue single GPU. Some fanboys will change their argument (eg. move the goalpost as you like to say... and do) depending on which definition currently benefits their company. If you asked me, I'd say (in terms of DX11 performance at least) they are DX11 perf/watt, and DX11 perf/mm2. AMD definitely wins the first, and likely the later as well, assuming real games and not synthetics. Future games could very well change things around, but the market has shown time and time again that it cares about perfomance in the here and now. (just ask Geforce 7xxx and Radeon x1xxx)

 

[slayernine]

I think it is quite obvious that both companies have been optimizing for specific applications and games for a long time. Now as long as it does not significantly reduce the image quality or change how the images on the screen were meant to be displayed, I don't really have a problem with this.

If anything it helps out a fair bit when you have a card that just needs to get a few extra FPS in a game without lowering the settings in game.

And just like a ton of other people mentioned, you can turn it off. Thus by being able to turn it off you can do fair benchmarks and independent review websites know about these things and should benchmark appropriately.

 

[Creig]

NVIDIA's official driver optimization's policy is to never introduce a performance optimization via .exe detection that alters the application's image quality, however subtle the difference. This is also the policy of FutureMark regarding legitimate driver optimizations.

Since when did Nvidia start officially using Futuremark products again? I thought they had sworn off FutureMark forever after the 3DMark03 fiasco where they were caught doing "performance optimization via .exe detection" in the extreme:

http://www.futuremark.com/pressroom/companypdfs/3dmark03_audit_report.pdf

 

[Lonbjerg]

So... let me get this straight. Nemesis says that it feels like AMD is steamrolling ahead of Nvidia (which is correct, AMD looks to be releasing RV9xx cards before NV releases the last of their RV8xx competitors), and then you change the topic by saying "not in DX11 performance", and accuse him of "moving the goalposts".

And then, badb0y points out that AMD's 5970 is actually the top dog in DX11 performance. In response you point out that it's 2 GPUs vs. 1 GPU and make a silly statement about GTX 480 SLI. Afterwards, you make your favourite accusation about badb0y "moving the goalposts"

The only person "moving goalposts" here is yourself. First, by inserting your interpretation of what "steamrolling ahead" means, and then when someone challenged that slightly off topic statement about DX11 performance, you moved the goalpost from single card to single GPU.

:rollseyes:

The fact is, goalposts are *always* going to be different depending on who you ask. Some will argue single card, some will argue single GPU. Some fanboys will change their argument (eg. move the goalpost as you like to say... and do) depending on which definition currently benefits their company. If you asked me, I'd say (in terms of DX11 performance at least) they are DX11 perf/watt, and DX11 perf/mm2. AMD definitely wins the first, and likely the later as well, assuming real games and not synthetics. Future games could very well change things around, but the market has shown time and time again that it cares about perfomance in the here and now. (just ask Geforce 7xxx and Radeon x1xxx)

If I should fall down to your level, I could say that AMD needs 2 GPU's to handle 1 GPU from NVIDIA.

But if it makes you feel better, you can think that dual GPU cards are comparable in all ways to a single GPU.

It just don't make it true though.

And dosn't alter the fact one bit:
NVIDIA has the fastest DX11 GPU on the market...like it or not.

 

[SirPauly]

[/I]Since when did Nvidia start officially using Futuremark products again? I thought they had sworn off FutureMark forever after the 3DMark03 fiasco where they were caught doing "performance optimization via .exe detection" in the extreme:

http://www.futuremark.com/pressroom/companypdfs/3dmark03_audit_report.pdf

They did and were hammered for it. Maybe they have learned from it and moved forward and now have set new policies from it. Didn't like it back then and don't like it right now from AMD and it's called consistency.

 

[T2k]

Soooo, let me get this straight. ATI/AMD does something to reduce image quality and increase fps. Nvidia tells you about it. Nvidia is the bad guy.

Do I have this right?

No, not really. For "some" reason you left the other half of the story out.

 

[T2k]

So... let me get this straight. Nemesis says that it feels like AMD is steamrolling ahead of Nvidia (which is correct, AMD looks to be releasing RV9xx cards before NV releases the last of their RV8xx competitors), and then you change the topic by saying "not in DX11 performance", and accuse him of "moving the goalposts".

And then, badb0y points out that AMD's 5970 is actually the top dog in DX11 performance. In response you point out that it's 2 GPUs vs. 1 GPU and make a silly statement about GTX 480 SLI. Afterwards, you make your favourite accusation about badb0y "moving the goalposts"

The only person "moving goalposts" here is yourself. First, by inserting your interpretation of what "steamrolling ahead" means, and then when someone challenged that slightly off topic statement about DX11 performance, you moved the goalpost from single card to single GPU.

:rollseyes:

The fact is, goalposts are *always* going to be different depending on who you ask. Some will argue single card, some will argue single GPU. Some fanboys will change their argument (eg. move the goalpost as you like to say... and do) depending on which definition currently benefits their company. If you asked me, I'd say (in terms of DX11 performance at least) they are DX11 perf/watt, and DX11 perf/mm2. AMD definitely wins the first, and likely the later as well, assuming real games and not synthetics. Future games could very well change things around, but the market has shown time and time again that it cares about perfomance in the here and now. (just ask Geforce 7xxx and Radeon x1xxx)

Great post.

 

[Keysplayr]

If I should fall down to your level, I could say that AMD needs 2 GPU's to handle 1 GPU from NVIDIA.

But if it makes you feel better, you can think that dual GPU cards are comparable in all ways to a single GPU.

It just don't make it true though.

And dosn't alter the fact one bit:
NVIDIA has the fastest DX11 GPU on the market...like it or not.

What's the problem boys? Nvidia has the fastest single DX11 GPU(GTX480), and AMD has the fastest single DX11 graphics card(5970). End of story. There aren't even any goalposts to move.

 

[Scali]

[/I]Since when did Nvidia start officially using Futuremark products again? I thought they had sworn off FutureMark forever after the 3DMark03 fiasco where they were caught doing "performance optimization via .exe detection" in the extreme:

http://www.futuremark.com/pressroom/companypdfs/3dmark03_audit_report.pdf

Nah, they were back long before 3DMark05 was released, so they didn't miss a thing.

 

[Lavans]

AMD and NVIDIA dosn't make cards.
They make GPU's.
It's about the GPU's.

NVIDIA has fastest DX11 GPU, simple as that.

Isn't it a crying shame that the average consumer can't buy just a GPU from AMD and Nvidia? Regardless if Nvidia has the fastest GPU, AMD has the fastest video card. Period.

 

[Kenmitch]

If I should fall down to your level, I could say that AMD needs 2 GPU's to handle 1 GPU from NVIDIA.

But if it makes you feel better, you can think that dual GPU cards are comparable in all ways to a single GPU.

It just don't make it true though.

And dosn't alter the fact one bit:
NVIDIA has the fastest DX11 GPU on the market...like it or not.

You know as well as everybody else does that the single (dual gpu) has it's place in the video card market. The funny thing about them is the how they come in and out of the limelight all the time....As they only count if they are from your team be it red or green!

The GTX 480 is the fastest single gpu card at the moment....But it's reign looks like it's gonna be short lived so I suggest you just get over it and prey that Fermi II will be a better product than AMD's next incarseration on 28nm. We should get somewhat of an idea of AMD's based on the upcoming 6xxx series. I'd think that if they can pull 30-40% or more performance out of 40nm that AMD can do the same or more going to 28nm!

As far as the cheating thing goes everbody knows that both ATI and Nvidia are guilty to some extent with driver optimization. It's kinda pointless to argue about it as it has happened in the past, present, and will happen in the future also....I'm sure Nvidia is working on some magic driver now with the impending 6xxx series from AMD! But if you wanna dwell on some jaggies by the shore that most likely you'll never see while your gaming so be it!