Nvidia accusses ATI/AMD of cheating - Benchmarks

[Scali]

nonissue. nvidia didn't release a big press release condemning this, so there's little point in holding it against amd and no point whatsoever in criticizing nvidia for bringing it up.

Yea, the way I read it... nVidia posted some instructions for reviewers, saying "Hey, take note that when you enable Catalyst AI, they degrade the texture format in some cases to boost performance. If you want to do an apples-to-apples comparison, either disable Catalyst AI, or use this tool to enable our texture format degradation feature in the 260 drivers as well".

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Yea, the way I read it... nVidia posted some instructions for reviewers, saying "Hey, take note that when you enable Catalyst AI, they degrade the texture format in some cases to boost performance. If you want to do an apples-to-apples comparison, either disable Catalyst AI, or use this tool to enable our texture format degradation feature in the 260 drivers as well".

Remember when video card reviews always had image quality comparisons? :sneaky:

(I bet dug777 does)

 

[Meghan54]

My take on this:

 

[dug777]

Remember when video card reviews always had image quality comparisons? :sneaky:

(I bet dug777 does)

I so almost brought that up, and I'm still hosting those pictures on pics.bbzzdd.com

That was some bad juju from Nvidia :'(

EDIT: looks like I must have cleaned my pics account up and taken them down

 

[Scali]

Remember when video card reviews always had image quality comparisons? :sneaky:

Well yea, but in the old days there actually WERE quality differences.
Then at some point the DX specifications became so tight, and the hardware became so advanced, that you couldn't really tell the difference with the naked eye, and somehow these quality comparisons disappeared from most reviews.

Ofcourse that is an excellent opportunity to start 'cheating' again

I'll say, as a developer I'm in two minds about this.
On the one hand it pisses me off when I say "I want an FP16 surface" and the driver decides it knows better, and short-changes me with a lower precision format.

On the other hand... in some cases it may be a good choice, which I could not have made at the time of development, because hardware did not support that format yet.
So in some cases I'm not that bothered... But if it comes down to all-or-nothing, I'd rather stick to the developer's choice.

 

[Keysplayr]

What? Everyone knows Catalyst AI improves performance through tweaks, and those tweaks sometimes degrade image quality slightly. This is nothing new. What's new is that NVIDIA is in a hissy fit that this is somehow cheating. To top it all off, they've done much of the same in the past, and to a much more drastic effect (e.g. Crysis.). It just all reeks of bad taste and a temper tantrum. They are literally asking reviewers to remove AMD's driver tweaks, but not their own, during reviews. Seriously? Since when does NVIDIA get to decide what tweaks are "OK to use."

Hey, I know I'd post such a strong, inflammatory stance with only 8 posts on the board as well . Agenda, anyone? And FC2 wasn't included on "NVIDIA's blacklist."

Hmmm. Well, if "everyone" didn't know it before, they sure do now.
"Hissy Fit" or not, I really am stumbling over my own thoughts here trying to figure out how this changes the subject matter. So, I'm guessing we should now begin petitioning review sites for image quality testing from now on? Like they used to? Sounds good to me.

And your last paragraph. Should we be paying closer attention to the content of newly registered members posts? Or members with low post counts as having an agenda when they post an opinion? I don't see the connection, but if you can explain this to the rest of us and why you think Notty has an agenda, maybe you can shed some light on what you think that is and why?

 

[dug777]

I found my screenshots

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/dug777/F5.jpg

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/dug777/F6.jpg

I loved FarCry (still do in fact :thumbsup and boy did that annoy me back then!

As an aside, I find it amusing that those would have been full-screen screen captures at max playable settings and it's a postage stamp on my 24" 19x12 monitor these days

EDIT: looks like they were crops, but I presume I was cranking either 10x7 or 12x10

 

[Grooveriding]

Man, Nvidia must be desperate and worried about AMD's 6 series to come up with this crap.

This reminds me of Rollo crying and calling foul on AMD/ATI in Far Cry 2 with his 'screenshots' 'proving' degraded image quality.

Nvidia needs to stick to what they do best currently, slashing prices on all their cards

 

[Leyawiin]

There are game-specific optimizations that I can turn off?

In the NV control panel choose the advanced view, then go to Manage 3D Settings. Choose your particular game from the drop down menu then toggle Texture Filtering to "high quality". This shuts off any optimizations there. Its about the closest thing they have to Catalyst AI that you can adjust.

About the only thing I took away from that article is how demanding Oblivion can still be four years later.

 

[Keysplayr]

Man, Nvidia must be desperate and worried about AMD's 6 series to come up with this crap.

This reminds me of Rollo crying and calling foul on AMD/ATI in Far Cry 2 with his 'screenshots' 'proving' degraded image quality.

Nvidia needs to stick to what they do best currently, slashing prices on all their cards

Is it crap, or is it really happening?. Doesn't matter if Nvidia is desperate or not. Motive is irrelevant. Subject remains.

It reminds me of a lot of things as well.

Actually, what Nvidia does best "currently" is make better DX11 hardware and superior dev support/relations. The former may change with 6xxx series, but we'll see shortly.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

Cheating?

Remember when the 9600gt came out and review samples we're OCed before they were sent out and labeled as slower parts? I.E it wasn't actually running at such a low speed, promised others of a high OC? They ran on a higher bus than reported and tweaked it at the driver level so it wouldn't be seen?

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/Shady_9600_GT/

That's cheating if you were to ask me, but hey, form your own opinions.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

...

Ofcourse that is an excellent opportunity to start 'cheating' again

...

:sneaky: D:

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

I found my screenshots

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/dug777/F5.jpg

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/dug777/F6.jpg

I loved FarCry (still do in fact :thumbsup and boy did that annoy me back then!

As an aside, I find it amusing that those would have been full-screen screen captures at max playable settings and it's a postage stamp on my 24" 19x12 monitor these days

EDIT: looks like they were crops, but I presume I was cranking either 10x7 or 12x10

Far Cry was graphically amazing.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Hmmm. Well, if "everyone" didn't know it before, they sure do now.
"Hissy Fit" or not, I really am stumbling over my own thoughts here trying to figure out how this changes the subject matter. So, I'm guessing we should now begin petitioning review sites for image quality testing from now on? Like they used to? Sounds good to me.

And your last paragraph. Should we be paying closer attention to the content of newly registered members posts? Or members with low post counts as having an agenda when they post an opinion? I don't see the connection, but if you can explain this to the rest of us and why you think Notty has an agenda, maybe you can shed some light on what you think that is and why?

I don't think "everyone" knew what AI does... but to reiterate one of my previous posts:

ATI Catalyst™ A.I. (AI)

ATI Catalyst A.I. makes use of AMD's texture analyzer technology to optimize performance in 3D applications, while maintaining or even improving image quality. It analyzes individual textures as they are loaded to determine the best and fastest way to display them.

ATI Catalyst A.I. includes application-specific detection for various games and games engines such as Doom 3, the Half Life 2 engine, Unreal Tournament 2003, Unreal Tournament 2004, Splinter Cell, Race Driver, Prince of Persia, and Crazy Taxi 3.

:\

Keys, I don't know how much you peruse the other forums, but I, too, have noticed that recently there have been new members who burst onto the scene with aggressive, even antagonistic posts, and spread misinformation. And I don't mean exclusively here in Video.

 

[Seero]

I am a bit confused. Did Nvidia retrofitted the FP16 denotation that is created by ATI, or did they wrote their version of it to mimic its effects?

Put the cheating not cheating part aside. Did ATI have a piece of code that acturally runs better on ATI wares and Nvidia trails behind with their version of it? Is it safe to assume that the Nvidia version of it suffers the same image quality loss? I can see(at least I think I can) the difference between a screenshot, but why didn't they make a clip and put them side by side for viewers to see that a) Visual quality can be detected by human eye when it is in motion, and b) The difference between a bit more FPS at a bit loss of image quality vs normal?

 

[Grooveriding]

Actually, what Nvidia does best "currently" is make better DX11 hardware and superior dev support/relations. The former may change with 6xxx series, but we'll see shortly.

No, not really. They play catch-up for the most part with DX11, and soon they will be playing second fiddle again to a new AMD generation while they pump out refreshes and do what they currently do best... slash prices, and spread fud, nvidia spreads fud well too.

 

[Creig]

Actually, what Nvidia does best "currently" is make better DX11 hardware

Please define "better". Nvidia might currently have the fastest single GPU DX11 card on the market, but whether or not it's "better" is infinitely debatable.

 

[Madcatatlas]

No, not really. They play catch-up for the most part with DX11, and soon they will be playing second fiddle again to a new AMD generation while they pump out refreshes and do what they currently do best... slash prices, and spread fud, nvidia spreads fud well too.

I was going to reply with the same.

Playing catch up and releasing your faulty product 7 months after the competion, has never in my book equaled "better" products. At best you tie the competition because you provide higher performance.
Who would have thought a product coming 7 months later would be better performing than...

Also, missing your entusiasm in the HD6xxx topics Keys, arent your excited?

 

[MrK6]

Hmmm. Well, if "everyone" didn't know it before, they sure do now.

Why would they not know? It says it right in the control panel.

"Hissy Fit" or not, I really am stumbling over my own thoughts here trying to figure out how this changes the subject matter. So, I'm guessing we should now begin petitioning review sites for image quality testing from now on? Like they used to? Sounds good to me.

Sites can review whatever they like. If someone wants to do an optimization comparison across games, go for it, that'd be interesting. I know [H] has done them recently (and they've not found any differences in awhile, IIRC).

And your last paragraph. Should we be paying closer attention to the content of newly registered members posts? Or members with low post counts as having an agenda when they post an opinion? I don't see the connection, but if you can explain this to the rest of us and why you think Notty has an agenda, maybe you can shed some light on what you think that is and why?

After you finish stumbling over your own thoughts, I'm sure you can put in some time figuring this one out as well .

Is it crap, or is it really happening?. Doesn't matter if Nvidia is desperate or not. Motive is irrelevant. Subject remains.

So what's the "subject" you keep referring to, that NVIDIA wants to cripple AMD's drivers in benchmarks to gain any last advantage?

Actually, what Nvidia does best "currently" is make better DX11 hardware and superior dev support/relations.

Are you measuring that in BTU's?

Cheating?

Remember when the 9600gt came out and review samples we're OCed before they were sent out and labeled as slower parts? I.E it wasn't actually running at such a low speed, promised others of a high OC? They ran on a higher bus than reported and tweaked it at the driver level so it wouldn't be seen?

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/Shady_9600_GT/

That's cheating if you were to ask me, but hey, form your own opinions.

That's my point, both sides do it, and, IMO, NVIDIA substantially more dishonestly so, but hey, everyone has an opinion.

I was going to reply with the same.

Playing catch up and releasing your faulty product 7 months after the competion, has never in my book equaled "better" products. At best you tie the competition because you provide higher performance.
Who would have thought a product coming 7 months later would be better performing than...

Also, missing your entusiasm in the HD6xxx topics Keys, arent your excited?

He's excited for $200 GTX 480's I bet :awe:.

 

[tweakboy]

I know AMD is prone to doing this, but nVidia should mind their own business very stupid of them to cry about it.

Instead of crying make a darn graphics chip that is as fast as the 5970 if not faster ,,nVidia stop talking and start walking...

 

[Kuzi]

Actually, what Nvidia does best "currently" is make better DX11 hardware and superior dev support/relations. The former may change with 6xxx series, but we'll see shortly.

I only see the GTX460/GTX470 as good NV DX11 cards competing with ATI's offerings. And the 5970 is still the fastest card by a wide margin. Also, in terms of numbers, ATI may have sold 20 million DX11 cards till now, NV maybe 1-2 million. Developers optimize their software for the most widely available hardware. And right now ATI has a huge lead in the DX11 market, probably +90%.

When ATI releases the 6xxx series cards soon NV will have an even harder time, I'm not sure how they can compete, the only way is to lower the prices (again) on their GPUs. And because Fermi is such a huge chip, NV has to wait till the 28nm process is ready to release Fermi 2, which means they won't have anything to compete with 6xxx till maybe a year from now. Hey, they can always OC the GTX460, call it GTX560, and release it next year for $150, that might offer some competition to ATI

 

[happy medium]

Soooo, let me get this straight. ATI/AMD does something to reduce image quality and increase fps. Nvidia tells you about it. Nvidia is the bad guy.

Do I have this right?

Let me answer that since it seems everyone else is spinning around it.

For the guys in this thread who for whatever reason would defend this crap, the answer is YES.


@ MRk6
You asked,
"What? Everyone knows Catalyst AI improves performance through tweaks, and those tweaks sometimes degrade image quality slightly."

I've had a ATi card for about 10 months and to honest I had no idea.

 

[Lonyo]

Let me answer that since it seems everyone else is spinning around it.

For the guys in this thread who for whatever reason would defend this crap, the answer is YES.

I hope the mods take notice who the real trouble makers are. Just take a good look at this thread and the total nonsense thats being posted and spun.

@ MRk6
You asked,
"What? Everyone knows Catalyst AI improves performance through tweaks, and those tweaks sometimes degrade image quality slightly."

I've had a ATi card for about 10 months and to honest I had no idea.

Catalyst AI has been around for 6 years now, and has (AFAIK) been basically the same since the beginning.
They don't try to hide it, and most reviewers at least should know about it anyway and decide for themselves whether it's worth it or not.
As for users, I'm sure there are many options and things going on that people don't know about or care enough to examine, but ATI hasn't exactly ever tried to hide the fact that they have optimisations in their drivers, nor the nature of those optimisations.

The whole thing does seem a bit overblown though, seeing as according to the link in the OP, this information has been included in all NV reviewer guides since the GTX480 launch, and no one has made any mention of it before now.

 

[crislevin]

first I think this is the news website unnecessarily brought it up. It sounds like a long standing business game play between nVidia and ATi, I don't see any particular reason or benefit in doing this tests.

second, I have to say, in reading the whole thing, its clear both vendors are doing it. It really means very little to most users who buy HD5770 or GTS 450.

Why so many meaningless discussion in this field, people really have nothing better to do?

 

[happy medium]

The whole thing does seem a bit overblown though

Agreed, but this stuff just shouldn't happen, with either of these companys.

The one game AMD gets there a$$ handed to them in is Far CRY, so I tend to believe they used a little extra help. If it was just a game that that cards were close, I'm might tend to doubt.

That seals the deal for me.