Nvidia accusses ATI/AMD of cheating - Benchmarks

[wanderer27]

What's old is new again apparently:

http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/Feature...and-degrading-game-quality-says-nvidia.aspx/1

 

[thilanliyan]

So how do I turn off any nV optimizations? Is it even possible?

 

[Lonbjerg]

So how do I turn off any nV optimizations? Is it even possible?

It's done via the control panel...

 

[MrK6]

What's old is new again apparently:

http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/Feature...and-degrading-game-quality-says-nvidia.aspx/1

There's a definite loss of image quality in Far Cry, but my overall question is who actually benchmarks any of these games anymore? Dawn of War II maybe, but that's it. And the rest of the games didn't really show any change in image quality, so good job AMD for making decent driver optimizations? Isn't that the point of Catalyst AI, and it says it right in the description, that it applies tweaks to games that slightly affect image quality but boost performance. How is that "cheating?"

But man, NVIDIA really scraping for anything here. I remember when Crysis came out, everyone crapped because NVIDIA drivers sacrificed image quality for performance. Both sides optimize their drivers for games, sometimes too much, but in the end neither is better than the other. This is just childish.

 

[crazylegs]

NVIDIA anti-ATI PR team just sank to a new all time low... How about they spend more time making their own products better and let that talk for itself? Getting sick of all this PR c^&p.

 

[ShadowOfMyself]

Pathetic... So now that Nvidia doesnt have anything to hold on to (other than the GTX 460) they come up with this?

The hypocrisy is disturbing, after all the crap they have done

 

[dug777]

From the article conclusion:


Ultimately the decision to run FP16 Demotion has always been up to the end-user, as the use of Catalyst A.I has been optional since its first inclusion in Catalyst drivers - now many years ago - and as it appears predominantly beneficial or benign in the majority of cases, we'd suggest you leave it enabled.

We also can't help but wonder why NVIDIA attempted to make such an issue over this rendering technique; one that they wholeheartedly support and simultaneously condemn. In the two titles that their hack functioned with we saw no image quality nor performance loss, and rather the opposite: a performance boost. Why haven't NVIDIA included support for FP16 Demotion in their drivers until now for specific titles? Why choose now to kick up a fuss?

The answer, as always, will never really be known.


A measured conclusion I'd say


However, I'll give it a few days until I expect to see something referencing this appear in certain forum super geniuses' signatures

 

[thilanliyan]

It's done via the control panel...

There are game-specific optimizations that I can turn off?

 

[Dribble]

Surely cards need to be benched at the same settings for the test to count?

Don't understand why nvidia is "childish" or "kicking up a fuss" for mentioning this. It wasn't a public announcement with a big fanfare, it was in the reviewers guide, I can't see why nvidia should have to keep that information secret from reviewers?

I would hope that ati mention any time nvidia cheat in their reviewers guide too - keeps both sides honest.

 

[Scali]

Given that in their own documents, NVIDIA indicates that the R11G11B10 format "offers the same dynamic range as FP16 but at half the storage", it would appear to us that our competitor shares the conviction that R11G11B10 is an acceptable alternative.

This is misleading... dynamic range is not the same as precision (they use the same exponent range, but the R11G11B10 format saves bits on the mantissa -> precision).

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Maybe Nvidia should utilize the FP16 Demotion as as option - call it "Performance Mode" or something - in the NVCP.

 

[Keysplayr]

NVIDIA anti-ATI PR team just sank to a new all time low... How about they spend more time making their own products better and let that talk for itself? Getting sick of all this PR c^&p.

Soooo, let me get this straight. ATI/AMD does something to reduce image quality and increase fps. Nvidia tells you about it. Nvidia is the bad guy.

Do I have this right?

 

[Will Robinson]

There are game-specific optimizations that I can turn off? __________________

To conclude, I would encourage you to think twice before disabling Catalyst AI. Doing so will disable numerous other features which would make such a comparison meaningless. In this situation you would have to also disable all NVIDIA optimizations in their driver, something that is made even more difficult by the fact that they do not provide an option to do so in their control panel.

Next thing you know,they'll be hiring Darth Chaney as a consultant....:sneaky:

 

[Lonyo]

It's not really cheating if you let people know about it. It's giving yourself improved performance sometimes through something which is end-user selectable.

It's also up to reviewers and websites to decide whether to leave it enabled or disable it, and ATI can't force it either way unless they make Cat AI 'on' be the only option in the drivers.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Soooo, let me get this straight. ATI/AMD does something to reduce image quality and increase fps. Nvidia tells you about it. Nvidia is the bad guy.

Do I have this right?

I think some of the ire coming from the populace is due to the perception that Nvidia is struggling to compete with ATI, and have resorted to a mudslinging campaign rather than a product campaign. FWIW.

 

[MentalIlness]

Could it be that..........Nvidia was the one cheating first and now they are just pissed because ATI/AMD is doing it better ?

Sounds to me like NV is grasping at straws. Surely they can bring more to the table than accusing someone of cheating.

And where ATI/AMD has "admitted" what ever it was they admitted, I guess at least they had the balls to admit it.

 

[Will Robinson]

I think some of the ire coming from the populace is due to the perception that Nvidia is struggling to compete with ATI, and have resorted to a mudslinging campaign rather than a product campaign. FWIW.

+1 QFT
It brings to mind a small child stamping its feet in frustration.....while munching on a mouthful of sour grapes.

 

[notty22]

Soooo, let me get this straight. ATI/AMD does something to reduce image quality and increase fps. Nvidia tells you about it. Nvidia is the bad guy.

Do I have this right?

Thats the mobs opinion right now.
If this story swapped the company names , there would be 4x as many posts crucifying Nvidia, how they s***, always have, they cheat, all the workers are evil minions of a evil overlord, lol
Oh and lest I forget......about a dozen of this anecdote.
Thats why I won't ever buy company A , again !

FC2 is almost always included in reviews, because it seems to continually scale up with more powerful cards and each new generation of cpu.

 

[dug777]

Soooo, let me get this straight. ATI/AMD does something to reduce image quality and increase fps. Nvidia tells you about it. Nvidia is the bad guy.

Do I have this right?

I think it's more the way it has been spun, TBH, or just percieved to be spun, and I am not sure that's even nVidia's fault, they just mention in a benching guide...the article title rather sensationalises it I have no idea what the backstory in DAAMIT's response refers to?

In any event, I am not aware that DAAMIT was ever backward about coming forward in admitting that CatAI was an optimisation? At least you can turn it off if you want...

 

[dug777]

FC2 is almost always included in reviews, because it seems to continually scale up with more powerful cards and each new generation of cpu.

And what does that have to do with anything?

I suggest you read more carefully before getting so excited

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Thats the mobs opinion right now.
If this story swapped the company names , there would be 4x as many posts crucifying Nvidia, how they s***, always have, they cheat, all the workers are evil minions of a evil overlord, lol
Oh and lest I forget......about a dozen of this anecdote.
Thats why I won't ever buy company A , again !

FC2 is almost always included in reviews, because it seems to continually scale up with more powerful cards and each new generation of cpu.

Nvidia cites FC1, not FC2.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

I think it's more the way it has been spun, TBH, or just percieved to be spun, and I am not sure that's even nVidia's fault, they just mention in a benching guide...the article title rather sensationalises it I have no idea what the backstory in DAAMIT's response refers to?

In any event, I am not aware that DAAMIT was ever backward about coming forward in admitting that CatAI was an optimisation? At least you can turn it off if you want...

Didn't the AI setting in CCC once have a sentence describing it's use? I can't remember, my 5770 is the 1st Team Red card I've used on a regular basis since the X800... previous couple of cards were Green.

Edit: well, here's what the AI's Help button spouts when you click on it:

"ATI Catalyst™ A.I. (AI)

ATI Catalyst A.I. makes use of AMD's texture analyzer technology to optimize performance in 3D applications, while maintaining or even improving image quality. It analyzes individual textures as they are loaded to determine the best and fastest way to display them.

ATI Catalyst A.I. includes application-specific detection for various games and games engines such as Doom 3, the Half Life 2 engine, Unreal Tournament 2003, Unreal Tournament 2004, Splinter Cell, Race Driver, Prince of Persia, and Crazy Taxi 3."

Apparently not. :\

 

[bryanW1995]

nonissue. nvidia didn't release a big press release condemning this, so there's little point in holding it against amd and no point whatsoever in criticizing nvidia for bringing it up. This issue was "long ignored" b/c there was always something more interesting to talk about. I guess atomic pc hasn't heard the news about 6xxx series yet.

 

[dug777]

Didn't the AI setting in CCC once have a sentence describing it's use? I can't remember, my 5770 is the 1st Team Red card I've used on a regular basis since the X800... previous couple of cards were Green.

If you mouse-over the check-box to get the explanation line, it still says:

'Disables per-application video-driver optimisations'

in Cat 10.8s

 

[MrK6]

Soooo, let me get this straight. ATI/AMD does something to reduce image quality and increase fps. Nvidia tells you about it. Nvidia is the bad guy.

Do I have this right?

What? Everyone knows Catalyst AI improves performance through tweaks, and those tweaks sometimes degrade image quality slightly. This is nothing new. What's new is that NVIDIA is in a hissy fit that this is somehow cheating. To top it all off, they've done much of the same in the past, and to a much more drastic effect (e.g. Crysis.). It just all reeks of bad taste and a temper tantrum. They are literally asking reviewers to remove AMD's driver tweaks, but not their own, during reviews. Seriously? Since when does NVIDIA get to decide what tweaks are "OK to use."

Thats the mobs opinion right now.
If this story swapped the company names , there would be 4x as many posts crucifying Nvidia, how they s***, always have, they cheat, all the workers are evil minions of a evil overlord, lol
Oh and lest I forget......about a dozen of this anecdote.
Thats why I won't ever buy company A , again !

FC2 is almost always included in reviews, because it seems to continually scale up with more powerful cards and each new generation of cpu.

Hey, I know I'd post such a strong, inflammatory stance with only 8 posts on the board as well . Agenda, anyone? And FC2 wasn't included on "NVIDIA's blacklist."