NVIDIA 9800GTX+ Review Thread

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: lopri

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
Keys & Rollo: please go bitch-slap somebody at nvidia marketing for me. WHY CAN'T THEY JUST CALL THE 55NM REFRESH THE 9900GTX????? Ok, I feel better now. If they just hired nemesis away from daamit then I understand what they're doing, if not then I feel that there is still some hope that they're open to new ideas like "reason" or "simplicity".

It'd look slightly more 'authentic' to slap a "+" sticker next to existing 9800GTX packaging instead of trying to align a "9" on top of "8".

HD 4850 is indeed too hot if the reported temperatures are correct. One thing I'd like to ask to the owners: Does the card clock down in 2D? AMD had this problem back in X1900 days but it was nicely fixed with HD 3000 series. If AMD still correctly use the PowerPlay, the 2D clock should be somewhere around 250~300MHz.

maybe they could put a red + in honor of amd's contribution to the new product...

seriously, though, they could just get my daughter, a 9800gtx, and her crayons at the kitchen table for 15 seconds. It'd be a done deal, and it would be artistic and stylish without a doubt.

 

[spittledip]

I think I m gonna have to grab me one of these. Haven't had an Nvidia card in a few years now.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995

Originally posted by: lopri

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
Keys & Rollo: please go bitch-slap somebody at nvidia marketing for me. WHY CAN'T THEY JUST CALL THE 55NM REFRESH THE 9900GTX????? Ok, I feel better now. If they just hired nemesis away from daamit then I understand what they're doing, if not then I feel that there is still some hope that they're open to new ideas like "reason" or "simplicity".

It'd look slightly more 'authentic' to slap a "+" sticker next to existing 9800GTX packaging instead of trying to align a "9" on top of "8".

HD 4850 is indeed too hot if the reported temperatures are correct. One thing I'd like to ask to the owners: Does the card clock down in 2D? AMD had this problem back in X1900 days but it was nicely fixed with HD 3000 series. If AMD still correctly use the PowerPlay, the 2D clock should be somewhere around 250~300MHz.

maybe they could put a red + in honor of amd's contribution to the new product...

seriously, though, they could just get my daughter, a 9800gtx, and her crayons at the kitchen table for 15 seconds. It'd be a done deal, and it would be artistic and stylish without a doubt.

What is with the thread-crap? We are discussing a die shrink of the 9800GTX.....you dont have to bash NV in this thread, that is what the 4XXX thread is for......

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: bryanW1995

Originally posted by: lopri

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
Keys & Rollo: please go bitch-slap somebody at nvidia marketing for me. WHY CAN'T THEY JUST CALL THE 55NM REFRESH THE 9900GTX????? Ok, I feel better now. If they just hired nemesis away from daamit then I understand what they're doing, if not then I feel that there is still some hope that they're open to new ideas like "reason" or "simplicity".

It'd look slightly more 'authentic' to slap a "+" sticker next to existing 9800GTX packaging instead of trying to align a "9" on top of "8".

HD 4850 is indeed too hot if the reported temperatures are correct. One thing I'd like to ask to the owners: Does the card clock down in 2D? AMD had this problem back in X1900 days but it was nicely fixed with HD 3000 series. If AMD still correctly use the PowerPlay, the 2D clock should be somewhere around 250~300MHz.

maybe they could put a red + in honor of amd's contribution to the new product...

seriously, though, they could just get my daughter, a 9800gtx, and her crayons at the kitchen table for 15 seconds. It'd be a done deal, and it would be artistic and stylish without a doubt.

What is with the thread-crap? We are discussing a die shrink of the 9800GTX.....you dont have to bash NV in this thread, that is what the 4XXX thread is for......

Is that really what you think the 4xxx thread is for? Push your reset button. Not the one on your computer.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Ok. I used C8xQAA

Snow: 68
Cave: 75

Now what?

Did you use dx10 or dx9?

What were you trying to find about anyway? You wanted to prove Computerbase benches are bogus?

DX10.

Bogus or legit. Either way. So far, looks bogus. If I got the same scores they did, I'd say they were legit. But I'm not, so I can't.

Steel Six, are you around? Have Lost Planet?

People have different way of testing.
True, but that is why I asked how the testing was done.

if you got 70 some fps with your "free" 280gtx
Didn't computerbase get their GTX280/HD4850 for free?
Or did they have to go and buy them at retail stores?
Free, has no bearing on the benchmarks I am getting. Free cards are not any faster
or slower than ones you pay for. Unless of course there was some underlying sentiment saying I'm lying about my scores? If so, what gives? You want truth? Or do you want BS?
Your call.

than you should also get 50 some fps with a 4850 the same way you benchmarked.
Which is why I plan to hook up with Steel Six who has just got himself two 4850's.
Lets test that theory shall we?

Computerbase is pretty much point on with their testings. I don't have any doubts about them.
Well, that's your call once again. I choose to test for myself. I believe me. LOL.

By the way, I just ran the bench at 1600x1200 C16xQAA 16xAF.
Snow: 56 Cave: 74

All this with a CPU running 1600MHz slower Quad core than computerbase (they ran a Q9770 o/c'd to 4GHz)

Computerbase might get the card free but I don't think they are members of any focus group and have allegiance to x company.

You seem very doubtful of the new 4850 but every major website including Anandtech says other wise. Your call. :brokenheart:

 

[bryanW1995]

as keys correctly stated, this thread is for all discussion related to 9800gtx, the 4xxx thread is for all discussion related to the new ati card.

I was one of nvidia's biggest fans when 8800gt was killing everything else. I can't count how many times I told somebody to buy that msi OC 8800gt with the dual-slot cooler in fact. Now that the tables are reversed somewhat I'm not going to blindly stick with the green team. If others choose to stick with a particular company in spite of strong evidence that there's a new sheriff in town, that's cool with me. Just don't throw innuendo and fud in my face that contradicts factual reviews from techreport, AT, computerbase, etc. Now, if you were keys and you had actual cards to test in your personal system then you would be qualified to intelligently discuss the situation. I remember when keys and apoppin compared the 8800gts 640 vs the 2900xt. Keys, how much time did that take you guys? I'd wager that it was significantly more time than most people here spend at work over a two week period. Oops, I mean, significantly more time than most ADULTS spend at work since I know that a lot of our contributors are students.

Besides, the + is a pretty stupid name for a card. It simply invites criticism. If amd came out with an "HD 4850 > 9800gtx" I wouldn't blame them. Nvidia would sue the crap out of them, but it would be fun to go takes pics of the box and trash them in the forums for a while at least

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: allies

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: ElFenix
meh, watts matters more than raw temperature.

The 9800GTX+ should win both as its now on a 55nm process as well and was only drawing 10W more under load at 65nm process. As for temps there is no doubt the 9800GTX+ will be MUCH cooler while the 3850 is borderline fire hazard. The 9800GTX/GTX 200 coolers are simply amazing.

Fire hazard? LMAO. Were you saying this when the 8800GTs were pushing 90C?

Nope, my 8800GT SC never hit 90C, I don't think it even broke 80C even when I overclocked it to 729MHz from 650MHz. The problem wasn't with its cooler either, it was with the fan never spinning up faster than 29% and being louder than dual-slot. Luckily for NV users, they have utilities like RT that allow them to easily control fan speed and clock speed so a problem like a poor cooler/fan can be more easily dealt with.

How that translates to the 9800GTX and GTX+ bodes well as they will all come with the updated NV dual-slot cooler. GTX at release were being sold at GTX+ speeds as OC'd versions which means there's a pretty good chance the GTX+ on 55nm refresh will be able to reach even higher speeds. I don't think your prospects are anywhere near as good with an HD4850 that idles at 80C and hits 100-110C load, and that's with a hard-capped CC limit of ~50MHz OC. Sure you can spend on after-market cooling for $20-40, but then are you really getting such a great deal?

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
as keys correctly stated, this thread is for all discussion related to 9800gtx, the 4xxx thread is for all discussion related to the new ati card.

I was one of nvidia's biggest fans when 8800gt was killing everything else. I can't count how many times I told somebody to buy that msi OC 8800gt with the dual-slot cooler in fact. Now that the tables are reversed somewhat I'm not going to blindly stick with the green team. If others choose to stick with a particular company in spite of strong evidence that there's a new sheriff in town, that's cool with me. Just don't throw innuendo and fud in my face that contradicts factual reviews from techreport, AT, computerbase, etc. Now, if you were keys and you had actual cards to test in your personal system then you would be qualified to intelligently discuss the situation. I remember when keys and apoppin compared the 8800gts 640 vs the 2900xt. Keys, how much time did that take you guys? I'd wager that it was significantly more time than most people here spend at work over a two week period. Oops, I mean, significantly more time than most ADULTS spend at work since I know that a lot of our contributors are students.

Besides, the + is a pretty stupid name for a card. It simply invites criticism. If amd came out with an "HD 4850 > 9800gtx" I wouldn't blame them. Nvidia would sue the crap out of them, but it would be fun to go takes pics of the box and trash them in the forums for a while at least

You telling me. I embraced to the Geforce 8 cards because it was superior at the time and was much better balanced card than RV670. RV770 is compelling card that is more efficient and future proof compared to Geforce 9 series. It's fast and have fixed every major problems associated with RV670.

 

[chizow]

Surprised no one has mentioned NV's ace up their sleeve with this price drop and the announcement of GTX+. Some people have wondered what their response is going to be against the 4870 when it launches. I don't think they will drop the GTX 260, I think its performance will be close enough to justify the premium. I do expect NV to push Tri-SLI with 9800GTX/+ heavily to compete against 4870 CF and the 4870X2 in the upper mid-range multi-GPU arena. While a Tri-SLI solution certainly has the negatives of requiring an NV Tri-SLI board and a beefy ~1000W PSU, it will almost surely offer the best performance short of GTX 280 SLI given Quad-CF/SLI scaling problems.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: allies

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: ElFenix
meh, watts matters more than raw temperature.

The 9800GTX+ should win both as its now on a 55nm process as well and was only drawing 10W more under load at 65nm process. As for temps there is no doubt the 9800GTX+ will be MUCH cooler while the 3850 is borderline fire hazard. The 9800GTX/GTX 200 coolers are simply amazing.

Fire hazard? LMAO. Were you saying this when the 8800GTs were pushing 90C?

Nope, my 8800GT SC never hit 90C, I don't think it even broke 80C even when I overclocked it to 729MHz from 650MHz. The problem wasn't with its cooler either, it was with the fan never spinning up faster than 29% and being louder than dual-slot. Luckily for NV users, they have utilities like RT that allow them to easily control fan speed and clock speed so a problem like a poor cooler/fan can be more easily dealt with.

How that translates to the 9800GTX and GTX+ bodes well as they will all come with the updated NV dual-slot cooler. GTX at release were being sold at GTX+ speeds as OC'd versions which means there's a pretty good chance the GTX+ on 55nm refresh will be able to reach even higher speeds. I don't think your prospects are anywhere near as good with an HD4850 that idles at 80C and hits 100-110C load, and that's with a hard-capped CC limit of ~50MHz OC. Sure you can spend on after-market cooling for $20-40, but then are you really getting such a great deal?

quit spreading fud. I've used rivatuner on my 3870 almost since release date to manually control fan speed. 4850 will be supported soon if it isn't already. the 4850 doesn't produce nearly as much heat as 9800gtx (+) so it will be easier to cool it, whether with a crappy single slot design or with a high performance dual slot unit. They're already selling them on special at best buy for $149. Spend $20 more than that to get a high end aftermarket cooler or wait for good dual slot non-reference designs if you get one, however. How high will a 4850 oc with a good hsf? certainly it will get over the 750 that 4870 gets, probably much higher than that. The hard-capped oc limit in ccc is 75, not 50 btw.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
quit spreading fud. I've used rivatuner on my 3870 almost since release date to manually control fan speed. 4850 will be supported soon if it isn't already. the 4850 doesn't produce nearly as much heat as 9800gtx (+) so it will be easier to cool it, whether with a crappy single slot design or with a high performance dual slot unit. They're already selling them on special at best buy for $149. Spend $20 more than that to get a high end aftermarket cooler or wait for good dual slot non-reference designs if you get one, however. How high will a 4850 oc with a good hsf? certainly it will get over the 750 that 4870 gets, probably much higher than that. The hard-capped oc limit in ccc is 75, not 50 btw.

From what I've read, it won't matter if you can adjust 4850s fan speed. When people says its "loud under load" and its still 100-110C, that tells me the cooler is working at maximum efficiency and its not going to get better. While I still think RV770 will be able to hit 750MHz with a dual-slot cooler on the 4870, you have to ask yourself how much overhead is going to be left over with such a high TDP.

 

[YANIV]

quote: BRYANW1995: Besides, the + is a pretty stupid name for a card. It simply invites criticism. If amd came out with an "HD 4850 > 9800gtx" I wouldn't blame them. Nvidia would sue the crap out of them, but it would be fun to go takes pics of the box and trash them in the forums for a while at least


Respekt man.. lols. thats probably the line of the year or something.

 

[Schfifty Five]

Is the 9800 GTX+ supposed to be on the same level as the HD4850? If that's the case, does ATI have an equivalent for the GT200 (260/280) series?

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Schfifty Five
Is the 9800 GTX+ supposed to be on the same level as the HD4850? If that's the case, does ATI have an equivalent for the GT200 (260/280) series?

9800GTX+ is supposed to be faster with no AA, about the same with 4xAA, and same or slightly slower with 8xAA. Realistically neither are much faster than any other G92. GTX+ isn't available right now though as it is a pretty weak paper launch response to the 4850.

4870 will most likely be competitive with GTX 260 going by 9800GTX and GTX 260 differences from published benches. I think GTX 260 will hold its own enough though to justify the $100 price premium. I'd expect ATI to come back with a 1GB version to directly compete with the GTX 260 for ~$400 once GDDR5 supply ramps up.

But here's how I see things shaping up in a month or so grouped relatively by price/performance:

• 4870 vs GTX 260
  
  8800GT/8800GTS/9800GTX/9800GTX+ SLI vs. 4850 CF
  
  4870 CF/X2 vs. 9800GTX+ Tri-SLI vs. GTX 280 (single)
  
  4870X2 in CF vs. GTX 260/280 in SLI

 

[Kuzi]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
quit spreading fud. I've used rivatuner on my 3870 almost since release date to manually control fan speed. 4850 will be supported soon if it isn't already. the 4850 doesn't produce nearly as much heat as 9800gtx (+) so it will be easier to cool it, whether with a crappy single slot design or with a high performance dual slot unit. They're already selling them on special at best buy for $149. Spend $20 more than that to get a high end aftermarket cooler or wait for good dual slot non-reference designs if you get one, however. How high will a 4850 oc with a good hsf? certainly it will get over the 750 that 4870 gets, probably much higher than that. The hard-capped oc limit in ccc is 75, not 50 btw.

From what I've read, it won't matter if you can adjust 4850s fan speed. When people says its "loud under load" and its still 100-110C, that tells me the cooler is working at maximum efficiency and its not going to get better. While I still think RV770 will be able to hit 750MHz with a dual-slot cooler on the 4870, you have to ask yourself how much overhead is going to be left over with such a high TDP.

I agree with bryanW1995, you are spreading wrong information. Many people at XS already have HD4850 cards, at load most are getting around 85-90C, not 110C. The current version of RivaTuner is not working with the 4850, and people that own the card say the fan is only running at 10%. I'm sure once a new version of Rivatuner is released this heat problem will be fixed.

The 9800GTX+ seems like a good card, but it's still not out yet, and we need more reviews so we can compare it with the HD4850. Also Nvidia will price the GTX+ a little more than the HD4850, so it should be faster than the HD4850 if they expect people to buy it.

 

[allies]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
quit spreading fud. I've used rivatuner on my 3870 almost since release date to manually control fan speed. 4850 will be supported soon if it isn't already. the 4850 doesn't produce nearly as much heat as 9800gtx (+) so it will be easier to cool it, whether with a crappy single slot design or with a high performance dual slot unit. They're already selling them on special at best buy for $149. Spend $20 more than that to get a high end aftermarket cooler or wait for good dual slot non-reference designs if you get one, however. How high will a 4850 oc with a good hsf? certainly it will get over the 750 that 4870 gets, probably much higher than that. The hard-capped oc limit in ccc is 75, not 50 btw.

From what I've read, it won't matter if you can adjust 4850s fan speed. When people says its "loud under load" and its still 100-110C, that tells me the cooler is working at maximum efficiency and its not going to get better. While I still think RV770 will be able to hit 750MHz with a dual-slot cooler on the 4870, you have to ask yourself how much overhead is going to be left over with such a high TDP.

Dude... the TDP of the 4850 is LESS than the 9800GTX+ I'm assuming that the 4870 should be right in line or a little bit above...

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Ok. I used C8xQAA

Snow: 68
Cave: 75

Now what?

Did you use dx10 or dx9?

What were you trying to find about anyway? You wanted to prove Computerbase benches are bogus?

DX10.

Bogus or legit. Either way. So far, looks bogus. If I got the same scores they did, I'd say they were legit. But I'm not, so I can't.

Steel Six, are you around? Have Lost Planet?

People have different way of testing.
True, but that is why I asked how the testing was done.

if you got 70 some fps with your "free" 280gtx
Didn't computerbase get their GTX280/HD4850 for free?
Or did they have to go and buy them at retail stores?
Free, has no bearing on the benchmarks I am getting. Free cards are not any faster
or slower than ones you pay for. Unless of course there was some underlying sentiment saying I'm lying about my scores? If so, what gives? You want truth? Or do you want BS?
Your call.

than you should also get 50 some fps with a 4850 the same way you benchmarked.
Which is why I plan to hook up with Steel Six who has just got himself two 4850's.
Lets test that theory shall we?

Computerbase is pretty much point on with their testings. I don't have any doubts about them.
Well, that's your call once again. I choose to test for myself. I believe me. LOL.

By the way, I just ran the bench at 1600x1200 C16xQAA 16xAF.
Snow: 56 Cave: 74

All this with a CPU running 1600MHz slower Quad core than computerbase (they ran a Q9770 o/c'd to 4GHz)

Computerbase might get the card free but I don't think they are members of any focus group and have allegiance to x company.

You seem very doubtful of the new 4850 but every major website including Anandtech says other wise. Your call. :brokenheart:

Wow. You're just full of opinions aren't you?
So, lets talk bluntly please. No beating around the bush sugar coating. Do you think I am reporting my results incorrectly? Do you think I am lying? Do you want to believe I am lying? Which is it?
Two things you have said now lead me to believe you are more biased than you "think" I am.
"Free". and "Allegiance".

YOU are the one bringing up these things. To what end?

This is the story:

I saw Tuteja's post with the CB benches for the HD4850, 9800GTX and GTX280.
I said to myself, "Self, let me try out the bench and see what I get a the same settings."
I did. Let Tuteja know what I got. I asked if I was doing anything wrong with my settings because they did not "jive" with CB's numbers. Just to make sure.

We discussed different AA modes and what they were. I tried them all and reported marks.
We noted that I was using DX10.
Then for some reason, you mention I had a "Free" card. And now you mention that I have an "allegiance". Highly improper for this conversation, don't you think?

And NOT ONCE did I say that the HD4850 marks were incorrect. How could I? I don't have one. YOU said it. Not me. I do not doubt the 4850's marks. Nor can I endorse them. Again, I don't have one. I do however have a 9800GTX and a GTX280. Those, I can comment on.

You are showing some colors here I do not care for. Far more biased than you would have us believe my friend. Far more than I could ever be. Sorry to tell you.

Do me, yourself, and the rest of this forum a favor. Keep your sour focus group propaganda to yourself when we are discussing tech. If you have an issue with me being in the focus group, start a personal forum issues thread. But you should probably have some kind of complaint first.

Thanks

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Kuzi
I agree with bryanW1995, you are spreading wrong information. Many people at XS already have HD4850 cards, at load most are getting around 85-90C, not 110C. The current version of RivaTuner is not working with the 4850, and people that own the card say the fan is only running at 10%. I'm sure once a new version of Rivatuner is released this heat problem will be fixed.

You're both active in the other thread, I'm sure you can read user results as well as I can cut and paste them. Did those XS folks say it was spinning 10% under load?

Originally posted by: allies
Dude... the TDP of the 4850 is LESS than the 9800GTX+ I'm assuming that the 4870 should be right in line or a little bit above...

The 4870 will either dissipate more heat due to increased clock frequency or increased voltage in order to hit those speeds or both so that 10W advantage should largely go away. Either way, we already know what kind of heat/clocks the 9800GTX can hit because it already has a quality cooler.

 

[CorCentral]

Are there any other reviews out there yet, other than the 2 in the OP?

 

[allies]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: allies
Dude... the TDP of the 4850 is LESS than the 9800GTX+ I'm assuming that the 4870 should be right in line or a little bit above...

The 4870 will either dissipate more heat due to increased clock frequency or increased voltage in order to hit those speeds or both so that 10W advantage should largely go away. Either way, we already know what kind of heat/clocks the 9800GTX can hit because it already has a quality cooler.

Uhm... that's what I said (meant - I apologize for being a little ambiguous). My original statement should've been: I'm assuming that the 4870 should be right in line with or a little above the 9800GTX+ in regards to TDP.

Also, we don't know how well the cooler on the 4870 operates so referencing the 9800GTX+'s cooler against it is just....

 

[yepp]

Originally posted by: CorCentral
Are there any other reviews out there yet, other than the 2 in the OP?

http://www.hardware.fr/article...force-9800-gtx-v2.html

 

[CorCentral]

Originally posted by: YEPP

Originally posted by: CorCentral
Are there any other reviews out there yet, other than the 2 in the OP?

http://www.hardware.fr/article...force-9800-gtx-v2.html

....... En ingles! ...... En anglais!!! :laugh:

 

[yepp]

If you don't mind engrish, you can always babel fish it.

Also this, only benches two games though.

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=580

 

[Kuzi]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Kuzi
I agree with bryanW1995, you are spreading wrong information. Many people at XS already have HD4850 cards, at load most are getting around 85-90C, not 110C. The current version of RivaTuner is not working with the 4850, and people that own the card say the fan is only running at 10%. I'm sure once a new version of Rivatuner is released this heat problem will be fixed.

You're both active in the other thread, I'm sure you can read user results as well as I can cut and paste them. Did those XS folks say it was spinning 10% under load?

Yes, but I guess what he meant was the fan speed is set very low in the cards Bios. So the speed needs to be adjusted by using the drivers (ATI Tools, RT etc). My point here is that the R770 GPU itself is not the problem, it's the low fan speeds and/or cheap coolers.

Check this XS guy used Accelero S2 heatsink+fan on his HD4850 and lowered the max load temp to only 45c.

The GTX+ seems to have better coolers and that's why the temperatures are lower. Really I don't think anyone should worry much if the GPU temperatures are below 90c at full load. Unless you want to OC, get something like that Accelero S2

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: allies

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: ElFenix
meh, watts matters more than raw temperature.

The 9800GTX+ should win both as its now on a 55nm process as well and was only drawing 10W more under load at 65nm process. As for temps there is no doubt the 9800GTX+ will be MUCH cooler while the 3850 is borderline fire hazard. The 9800GTX/GTX 200 coolers are simply amazing.

Fire hazard? LMAO. Were you saying this when the 8800GTs were pushing 90C?

Nope, my 8800GT SC never hit 90C, I don't think it even broke 80C even when I overclocked it to 729MHz from 650MHz. The problem wasn't with its cooler either, it was with the fan never spinning up faster than 29% and being louder than dual-slot. Luckily for NV users, they have utilities like RT that allow them to easily control fan speed and clock speed so a problem like a poor cooler/fan can be more easily dealt with.

How that translates to the 9800GTX and GTX+ bodes well as they will all come with the updated NV dual-slot cooler. GTX at release were being sold at GTX+ speeds as OC'd versions which means there's a pretty good chance the GTX+ on 55nm refresh will be able to reach even higher speeds. I don't think your prospects are anywhere near as good with an HD4850 that idles at 80C and hits 100-110C load, and that's with a hard-capped CC limit of ~50MHz OC. Sure you can spend on after-market cooling for $20-40, but then are you really getting such a great deal?

All valid points, but how sad that nVidia's last generation card will be their savior. What are they thinking over there with their designs?