Numbers confirm what we already knew: Fiat 500 is pos

[Puddle Jumper]

Yeah, and this shouldn't even be a criticism of the Defender. It was never designed for that kind of use. It should be compared directly against same-era Wranglers and such. It's a 4x4 first and foremost that happens to be able to haul some stuff for camping and whatnot, but is in no way, shape, form, or design an analogue to a full size pickup truck.

Comparing them is like comparing elbows and german philosophy.

I know, to be honest until HAL brought it up I never would have even considered the Defender for hauling things.

 

[LTC8K6]

The new Pentastar Wranglers are amazing. I wish they weren't so expensive, but man what a great package.

$22K isn't that much, is it? 2012 Wrangler Sport starts there.

 

[WelshBloke]

BTW bigger is safer. In a collision between two cars of drastically differing weights and heights, the heavier taller car will fare better and transfer less energy into the occupants. That's why you don't have to wear seatbelts in buses.

Unless the vehicle rolls or hits an immovable object.

 

[alkemyst]

A lot of trucks proved leg amputaters when they hit much smaller cars. Seat belts and buses are because it'd be impossible to enforce. I have been on more private buses that do have seatbelts.

 

[MotF Bane]

and has a 3.9L V8 with about 190hp and 210tq.

Where did they find that motor? A 1980's junkyard? D:

 

[WelshBloke]

Okay. A typical F150 is a crew cab model.

223.8" long, 78.9" wide, has a 138.5" wheelbase, and has a 5.0L V8 with 360hp and 380tq. It can haul and tow quite a lot.

A typical Defender 110 is this :

181.1" long, 70.5" wide, has a 110" wheelbase, and has a 3.9L V8 with about 190hp and 210tq. It is a supremely good off-road vehicle, has moderate interior room, and can't haul or tow all that much.

That doesn't say anything about the Defender 90, which is even better offroad than the 110, but is even shorter and more cramped inside.

They're apples/oranges, and I totally understand why a full-size F150 doesn't make sense for the UK. Lots of the US is rural, or you have people using a truck as a work/utility vehicle for a company/etc, so the F150 makes sense as you get a lot for your money, it's easy to work on, reliable, and they have good resale value. A 20-year-old F150 in running condition is still worth decent money, a 20-year-old typical passenger car usually isn't.

To add to that, the Chevy and Dodge full-size pickups are usually about the same story. Big, reliable, cheap for what you get.

Not that it invalidates any of your points but theres a Defender 130 as well.

They should make the old forward control models again, they were cool.

 

[Arkaign]

Not that it invalidates any of your points but theres a Defender 130 as well.

They should make the old forward control models again, they were cool.

Ah yeah, I saw that, looked pretty sweet but doesn't seem to be too common.

I think it's a shame that the Defender was never really updated. It'd be fun to see them road-legal and still selling over here, the LR2/LR4 aren't really comparable imho to the meat and potatoes kind of 4x4 that the Defender stands for.

 

[WelshBloke]

Ah yeah, I saw that, looked pretty sweet but doesn't seem to be too common.

I think it's a shame that the Defender was never really updated. It'd be fun to see them road-legal and still selling over here, the LR2/LR4 aren't really comparable imho to the meat and potatoes kind of 4x4 that the Defender stands for.

Yeah the smaller ones are generally better off road and theres other things if you want to cart a ton of crap around, so the demand isnt really there except for some specialist areas.

If you want a cool Defender look up some of the old 6x6 versions. 😀

 

[HAL9000]

Okay. A typical F150 is a crew cab model.

223.8" long, 78.9" wide, has a 138.5" wheelbase, and has a 5.0L V8 with 360hp and 380tq. It can haul and tow quite a lot.

A typical Defender 110 is this :

181.1" long, 70.5" wide, has a 110" wheelbase, and has a 3.9L V8 with about 190hp and 210tq. It is a supremely good off-road vehicle, has moderate interior room, and can't haul or tow all that much.

That doesn't say anything about the Defender 90, which is even better offroad than the 110, but is even shorter and more cramped inside.

They're apples/oranges, and I totally understand why a full-size F150 doesn't make sense for the UK. Lots of the US is rural, or you have people using a truck as a work/utility vehicle for a company/etc, so the F150 makes sense as you get a lot for your money, it's easy to work on, reliable, and they have good resale value. A 20-year-old F150 in running condition is still worth decent money, a 20-year-old typical passenger car usually isn't.

To add to that, the Chevy and Dodge full-size pickups are usually about the same story. Big, reliable, cheap for what you get.

Sure, I get that, but I genuinely don't understand what americans are always lugging around...? Pickup trucks are some of the most popular vehicles in America are people always carrying that much stuff about? When I saw them out there they always seemed to be empty. To me I drive a normal car every day then if I need something to carry some massive slabs of concrete or something similar I'll rent a vehicle for the day, rather than driving it all year and using what it can do once or twice.

 

[HAL9000]

Yeah the smaller ones are generally better off road and theres other things if you want to cart a ton of crap around, so the demand isnt really there except for some specialist areas.

If you want a cool Defender look up some of the old 6x6 versions. 😀

:awe: :wub:

😀

 

[ElFenix]

Sure, I get that, but I genuinely don't understand what americans are always lugging around...? Pickup trucks are some of the most popular vehicles in America are people always carrying that much stuff about? When I saw them out there they always seemed to be empty. To me I drive a normal car every day then if I need something to carry some massive slabs of concrete or something similar I'll rent a vehicle for the day, rather than driving it all year and using what it can do once or twice.

nothing.


people buy pickups based on the 'what if' and because you get the V8 sound, V8 muscle and rwd that insurance and CAFE killed in passenger cars. ironically CAFE may have caused the US overall fleet to have lower MPG by forcing people who want that more visceral experience into a vehicle that gets inherently worse mileage due to weight and aerodynamics.

you also get a high riding position, which makes people feel more secure and more in control, even if they aren't (usually less in control because truck suspension and steering isn't designed for sporty maneuvers).

 

[HAL9000]

nothing.


people buy pickups based on the 'what if' and because you get the V8 sound, V8 muscle and rwd that insurance and CAFE killed in passenger cars. ironically CAFE may have caused the US overall fleet to have lower MPG by forcing people who want that more visceral experience into a vehicle that gets inherently worse mileage due to weight and aerodynamics.

you also get a high riding position, which makes people feel more secure and more in control, even if they aren't (usually less in control because truck suspension and steering isn't designed for sporty maneuvers).

I find that bizzare, wouldn't you be better of with a car with 5 seats, a V8, a high riding position and a trailer waiting at home if you need to carry something massive?

 

[Arkaign]

Sure, I get that, but I genuinely don't understand what americans are always lugging around...? Pickup trucks are some of the most popular vehicles in America are people always carrying that much stuff about? When I saw them out there they always seemed to be empty. To me I drive a normal car every day then if I need something to carry some massive slabs of concrete or something similar I'll rent a vehicle for the day, rather than driving it all year and using what it can do once or twice.

That's a valid point, though a lot of us, myself included, spend time both in the city as well as rural areas, so it's nice to have available. I don't have a truck at the moment though. Something else to consider is that trucks are very cheap for what you pay, fuel economy on them has improved quite a bit, and insurance/maintenance is very low.

But yeah, there's a fair number of drivers that have them "just because", rarely using them for much of anything. My brother is an exception to that, he has a full-size Titan 4-door 4x4, and uses it's cargo/hauling abilites at least 2-3x a month, and has some property in an area where it's a good idea to have 4x4 capability. He also has a car that he uses more often than not as well.

What's good for the UK is often not good for the US and vice versa, and there's nothing wrong with that. I hope to visit there sometime, have a few pints (or more, lol), and check out a lot of cool stuff you rarely or never see here, such as TVR's, pre-19th century architechture, little diesel runabouts, rowdy football matches, etc. It'd be awfully boring if there weren't such dramatic differences between our nations.

 

[Arkaign]

I find that bizzare, wouldn't you be better of with a car with 5 seats, a V8, a high riding position and a trailer waiting at home if you need to carry something massive?

Perhaps, but good luck finding a full size car with those capabilities for anywhere near the price of a pickup. I think they're somewhat subsidized just on the masses that sell.

It's not hard to find a V8 F150 with a backseat for $26-$27k if you shop around and wait for a good deal to pass by. Finding a full-size car with a V8 at that price range is nearly impossible, and the gearing, transmission, and brakes won't nearly be set up as well for towing.

 

[ElFenix]

I find that bizzare, wouldn't you be better of with a car with 5 seats, a V8, a high riding position and a trailer waiting at home if you need to carry something massive?

and what would that be?

 

[HAL9000]

That's a valid point, though a lot of us, myself included, spend time both in the city as well as rural areas, so it's nice to have available. I don't have a truck at the moment though. Something else to consider is that trucks are very cheap for what you pay, fuel economy on them has improved quite a bit, and insurance/maintenance is very low.

But yeah, there's a fair number of drivers that have them "just because", rarely using them for much of anything. My brother is an exception to that, he has a full-size Titan 4-door 4x4, and uses it's cargo/hauling abilites at least 2-3x a month, and has some property in an area where it's a good idea to have 4x4 capability. He also has a car that he uses more often than not as well.

What's good for the UK is often not good for the US and vice versa, and there's nothing wrong with that. I hope to visit there sometime, have a few pints (or more, lol), and check out a lot of cool stuff you rarely or never see here, such as TVR's, pre-19th century architechture, little diesel runabouts, rowdy football matches, etc. It'd be awfully boring if there weren't such dramatic differences between our nations.

That's all completely true, I'm not trying to bash the way things are over there I'm just trying to understand it, as it makes little sense to me to own a two seater that can carry a huge ammount if you are not constantly carrying a huge ammount.

Let me know when you're here for a free pint. 🙂

Perhaps, but good luck finding a full size car with those capabilities for anywhere near the price of a pickup. I think they're somewhat subsidized just on the masses that sell.

It's not hard to find a V8 F150 with a backseat for $26-$27k if you shop around and wait for a good deal to pass by. Finding a full-size car with a V8 at that price range is nearly impossible, and the gearing, transmission, and brakes won't nearly be set up as well for towing.

My answer would have been a Land Rover Defender or similar, if they had a V8 defender it would meet all the criteria and there's no reason it couldn't exist in America, if the demand was there but people would rather have a pickup truck and that I don't get.

 

[HAL9000]

and what would that be?

I don't know, I don't know enough about American cars, but in the UK, as I mentioned we have the Defender, there's no reason such a thing couldn't exist in the US...

I've just thought of a Hummer or similar.

 

[xSkyDrAx]

Sure, I get that, but I genuinely don't understand what americans are always lugging around...? Pickup trucks are some of the most popular vehicles in America are people always carrying that much stuff about? When I saw them out there they always seemed to be empty. To me I drive a normal car every day then if I need something to carry some massive slabs of concrete or something similar I'll rent a vehicle for the day, rather than driving it all year and using what it can do once or twice.

A large majority is using that space for pretty much nothing. People argue practicality when it comes to trucks but I see way more soccer moms, grandmas, and kids driving them more than people that have an actual use for all that space. They just want a justification to look cool/tough or like that higher viewing position.

It's more or less the same mentality that people get when buying something like a smart car/fiat. They say it's environmentally friendly (mileage wise) and practical and what not despite comparisons that debunk that but everyone knows they want it to show off/look cool/unconformist/future thinking etc.

EDIT: I'm speaking for the US specifically.

 

[HAL9000]

A large majority is using that space for pretty much nothing. People argue practicality when it comes to trucks but I see way more soccer moms, grandmas, and kids driving them more than people that have an actual use for all that space. They just want a justification to look cool/tough or like that higher viewing position.

That's what I assumed it must be...

It's more or less the same mentality that people get when buying something like a smart car/fiat. They say it's environmentally friendly (mileage wise) and practical and what not despite comparisons that debunk that but everyone knows they want it to show off/look cool/unconformist/future thinking etc.

That may be true in America it's not else where though.

 

[Arkaign]

We had that conversation already, the Defender would make sense for a number of folks if it were up to date on safety to meet current US standards, and wasn't overly expensive. It's $32k base for the 90" model 2.2L diesel on in the UK right now, and that's just too much if you don't need the great 4x4 capabilities of it. $32k buys a V8 4-door pickup with a lot more cargo and hauling capability. It also won't have Land Rover maintenance costs.

The defender is a great 4x4 though.

 

[ElFenix]

I don't know, I don't know enough about American cars, but in the UK, as I mentioned we have the Defender, there's no reason such a thing couldn't exist in the US...

I've just thought of a Hummer or similar.

as explained, the defender is tiny. even the long wheelbase version is quite a bit more narrow than an F150. and i doubt i'm going out on a limb when i assume it gets no better fuel mileage. and i would hardly call that a car. most people would choose a tahoe over a defender.

we used to have a segment of 'compact' pickups. those have largely fallen by the wayside with only one true compact, the never fully redesigned ford ranger, left on the market. and that one's about to get the axe. for a not much more up front cost, you could have a much more modern full size truck, with vastly improved capabilities. and you don't really pay much in fuel for that, as either V6 in the F150 gets the same or better MPG than the 4L V6 in the ranger, and only 1 less city MPG with the 5L V8.

about the best you can hope for in terms of fuel consumption without government intervention is that people continue to buy minivans, ert, "crossovers"

 

[Puddle Jumper]

That's all completely true, I'm not trying to bash the way things are over there I'm just trying to understand it, as it makes little sense to me to own a two seater that can carry a huge ammount if you are not constantly carrying a huge ammount.

Let me know when you're here for a free pint. 🙂



My answer would have been a Land Rover Defender or similar, if they had a V8 defender it would meet all the criteria and there's no reason it couldn't exist in America, if the demand was there but people would rather have a pickup truck and that I don't get.

Most trucks seat 5, the 4 door models are by far the most popular.

As several people already pointed out the Defender is pretty useless at hauling things so it does not meet all of the criteria. Besides our trucks are far more powerful than even the top of the line Defender yet I would bet they get similar gas mileage.

 

[HAL9000]

Most trucks seat 5, the 4 door models are by far the most popular.

As several people already pointed out the Defender is pretty useless at hauling things so it does not meet all of the criteria. Besides our trucks are far more powerful than even the top of the line Defender yet I would bet they get similar gas mileage.

Really? All the pickups I've ever seen seat 2... Maybe 3 with a little middle seat... like a van.

 

[Throckmorton]

Really? All the pickups I've ever seen seat 2... Maybe 3 with a little middle seat... like a van.

I know for a fact you have these in the UK

 

[HAL9000]

I know for a fact you have these in the UK

I'm sure we do, I've never seen one though. I only know one person who owns a pickup truck and he's a tree surgeon.