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NRA: Government research into gun violence is not necessary

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Oh, that's right, because their studies show the truth that owning a gun is directly correlated with increased chances of being the victim of homicide or suicide. And the truth doesn't sit well with gun nuts and their agenda.

This is the reason why the NRA doesn't like the CDC studies. Its not that they show what you say, its that people interpret them (often due to bias) to show what you are saying.


What the studies actually show is that more guns means a greater likelihood of suicide by gun or murder by gun, but it doesn't show an increase in total suicides or an increase in total homicides. Finland and Japan have much greater suicide rates, but much lower gun ownership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

"There are lies, damned lies and statistics"
 
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Center for Injury Prevention


Y'all apparently conveniently skipped over that little part right there. CDC's title is probably not fully appropriate to their actual duties. Disregarding that, sigh...yet another NRA move against any form of firearm study.

You're missing the point. Just because firearms can cause injury, that does not mean the CDC is necessarily the correct agency to study firearms violence, which is more properly classified as a criminal issue than a medical issue.

Poster such as ivwshane and others are using a strawman argument that because I and others oppose the CDC studying firearms violence, that somehow we oppose all research related to firearms or are the puppets of the NRA. They're completely ignoring that while there are multiple study-worthy subjects related to firearms where the expertise would reside in different agencies. For example, if your focus was ballistics wounds data, then the CDC might be the proper agency. If you were looking into firearm smuggling, then you'd probably want the FBI or ATF to run the study. If your focus was worker safety at firearms factories, then it would be the Department of Labor.

Their position is what allows such ridiculous redundancy in federal spending, where there are 263 programs all designed to do the same thing and doing it badly. You are allowing the CDC to engage in mission creep and wasting taxpayer money if you allow them to do these studies. It's not their core role, they don't have the expertise, and other agencies are likely doing the research and doing it better than the CDC ever could. That is our objection, not that studies of this type are being done at all.
 
You're missing the point. Just because firearms can cause injury, that does not mean the CDC is necessarily the correct agency to study firearms violence, which is more properly classified as a criminal issue than a medical issue.

Poster such as ivwshane and others are using a strawman argument that because I and others oppose the CDC studying firearms violence, that somehow we oppose all research related to firearms or are the puppets of the NRA. They're completely ignoring that while there are multiple study-worthy subjects related to firearms where the expertise would reside in different agencies. For example, if your focus was ballistics wounds data, then the CDC might be the proper agency. If you were looking into firearm smuggling, then you'd probably want the FBI or ATF to run the study. If your focus was worker safety at firearms factories, then it would be the Department of Labor.

Why? A huge percentage of gun deaths each year are accidents and suicides, all of which are firearms violence. I can think of no better agency than the CDC to study those effects.

Their position is what allows such ridiculous redundancy in federal spending, where there are 263 programs all designed to do the same thing and doing it badly. You are allowing the CDC to engage in mission creep and wasting taxpayer money if you allow them to do these studies. It's not their core role, they don't have the expertise, and other agencies are likely doing the research and doing it better than the CDC ever could. That is our objection, not that studies of this type are being done at all.

Other agencies are likely doing this research and doing it better? Can you provide links to this other research? Let's dispense with the bullshit, we all know exactly why the CDC is barred from conducting research on gun violence and it has nothing to do with a concern about redundancy in federal gun violence research.
 
You don't get it do you?! It's called the center for disease control and in the mind of a righty that means they only study what's in their name, ie diseases.

/s

Lol! Fucking idiots!

Of course these same fucking morons are quick to call BS on any study the CDC comes up with. However if you ask them what's wrong with the study they either won't have an answer or will spew an NRA talking point. These idiots are truly sheep and will eat whatever shit is thrown at them so long as it comes from their masters.

Someone is off their meds.
 
Why? A huge percentage of gun deaths each year are accidents and suicides, all of which are firearms violence. I can think of no better agency than the CDC to study those effects.



Other agencies are likely doing this research and doing it better? Can you provide links to this other research? Let's dispense with the bullshit, we all know exactly why the CDC is barred from conducting research on gun violence and it has nothing to do with a concern about redundancy in federal gun violence research.

Accidents aren't a disease. Murder isn't a disease. Self defense isn't a disease. If the want to study suicide as a disease, they need to be studying hangings and bridge jumping right along guns. They aren’t, they want to study gun control. It's called the Center for Disease Control, not the center for whatever the fuck we want to study today. You gun grabbers just love this because you get to associate the word disease with guns.
 
Accidents aren't a disease. Murder isn't a disease. Self defense isn't a disease.

The Center for Disease Control exists to protect public health, not just to control diseases. Your objection is over the name, not the actual mandate. That's dumb.

http://www.cdc.gov/maso/pdf/cdcmiss.pdf

Gun violence is a public health issue.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/overview/timeline.html


If the want to study suicide as a disease, they need to be studying hangings and bridge jumping right along guns. They aren’t, they want to study gun control.

Of course they are studying those other things, how ignorant are you? Do you even bother to do some basic research before opening your mouth? I can't believe you're seriously so delusional that you think the CDC ignored all other suicides to focus on guns.

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/suicide/index.html

It's called the Center for Disease Control, not the center for whatever the fuck we want to study today. You gun grabbers just love this because you get to associate the word disease with guns.

As I said before, go read the center's mission statement. It's abundantly clear that you had no idea what the CDC does. In a more perfect world that would keep people from spinning insane conspiracy theories, but sadly we're stuck with the world we have.
 
Well the CDC studies motor vehicle safety and deaths.
http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/
It studies youth violence and prevention.
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/youthviolence/stats_at-a_glance/national_stats.html
It studies accidental and unintentional deaths and injuries.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/acc-inj.htm

So why can't they study gun violence? Oh, that's right, because their studies show the truth that owning a gun is directly correlated with increased chances of being the victim of homicide or suicide. And the truth doesn't sit well with gun nuts and their agenda.

correlate or cause? take out ubran yoof and gang bangers and you'll see that the normal non-violent criminal citizen doesn't fit that curve . . .
 
many people do know know what the CDC's Center for Injury Prevention is.
http://www.cdc.gov/injury/about/focus.html

Our Focus Areas

Injury is a serious public health problem because of its potential impact on the health and well-being of all people.

The senior leadership of CDC's Injury Center has examined the current status of our work and has determined ways to optimize our impact. We have revisited the concept and identification of priority areas, as well as the specific topical areas where we focus our efforts. We considered what we need to do in order to be responsive to emerging trends and increasing injury burden while ensuring that we continue to support the translation and dissemination of proven and promising interventions and policies and use our resources wisely.

Rather than continuing to use the term “priority topics,” we will use “focus areas,” and have identified four areas for our current work toward the prevention of:

Motor Vehicle-related Injuries
Violence Against Children and Youth
Prescription Painkiller Overdose
Traumatic Brain Injury
 
correlate or cause? take out ubran yoof and gang bangers and you'll see that the normal non-violent criminal citizen doesn't fit that curve . . .

I don't think they're looking at the "normal non-violent criminal citizen"

"It studies youth violence and prevention."

Sandy hook, gangs, school shootings, and child deaths by guns are all related to youth violence.
 
That's revealing but perhaps not in the way you intend. I'd rather see an investigation of something more pervasive, the pathology and prevention of sycophantic partisanship and the associated "Uncle Tom" attitudes associated with it.

Fact-free opinion, just the way that the NRA & the gun lobby want it.

Gun ownership has its own mythos, which isn't really a valid way for any of us to engage in rational formation of opinion or making of personal choices.

Well, unless you're Wayne LaPierre of the NRA. Is he the sort of radical partisan sycophant you're referencing?
 
correlate or cause? take out ubran yoof and gang bangers and you'll see that the normal non-violent criminal citizen doesn't fit that curve . . .

I used the term correlation for a reason. The CDC studies in the past only show data and don't try to offer policy decisions on gun control. But even showing correlation is scary to the NRA which has been consistently edging out of the realm of the sane for years.

I'm kinda loving this thread. Especially after eskimospy's post that kicked the shit out of the crazy conservative gun nut arguments being used in here.
 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...trol-should-not-receive-gun-research-funding/

In 1996, the Congress axed $2.6 million allocated for gun research from the CDC out of its $2.2 billion budget, charging that its studies were being driven by anti-gun prejudice. While that funding was later reinstated, it was re-designated for medical research on traumatic brain injuries.

There was a very good reason for the gun violence research funding ban. Virtually all of the scores of CDC-funded firearms studies conducted since 1985 had reached conclusions favoring stricter gun control. This should have come as no surprise, given that ever since 1979, the official goal of the CDC’s parent agency, the U.S. Public Health Service, had been “…to reduce the number of handguns in private ownership”, starting with a 25% reduction by the turn of the century.”

If the CDC starts out with the goal of reducing the number of handguns in private ownership it's impossible for 2nd Amendment supporters to believe they're getting an honest and unbiased scientific study, and they shouldn't.
 
You don't get it and you are buying into something sold by President Snooper and Vice President Hypocrite.

The real problem is why America is so violent to begin with. Why do so many want to harm others? Instead Snooper wants to focus on one aspect which gives him political hay while ignoring the more critical issue, but I allow that he's too unprincipled, narcissistic or ignorant to get it.

That's a good point, thought not mutually exclusive to studying gun violence. Gun violence can, and probably should, be a piece of studying our overall violence.
 
Unless of course handguns in private ownership are associated with a greater risk of injury from firearms... which they are.

It just points out that the bias the CDC is working under makes it unacceptable as a neutral organization. They are actively working to reduce gun ownership and their "science" can't be trusted.
 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...trol-should-not-receive-gun-research-funding/



If the CDC starts out with the goal of reducing the number of handguns in private ownership it's impossible for 2nd Amendment supporters to believe they're getting an honest and unbiased scientific study, and they shouldn't.

And if you can project that motive onto the CDC, it gives you reason to believe it's true in the first place, right?

Did you perchance notice anything circular happening there? In your head?

Of course not. Your worldview would crumble if you ever did.

What sort of honest & unbiased study would you prefer? One that proceeds from the premise that guns are God's gift to Merricuns?
 
You're missing the point. Just because firearms can cause injury, that does not mean the CDC is necessarily the correct agency to study firearms violence, which is more properly classified as a criminal issue than a medical issue.

Poster such as ivwshane and others are using a strawman argument that because I and others oppose the CDC studying firearms violence, that somehow we oppose all research related to firearms or are the puppets of the NRA. They're completely ignoring that while there are multiple study-worthy subjects related to firearms where the expertise would reside in different agencies. For example, if your focus was ballistics wounds data, then the CDC might be the proper agency. If you were looking into firearm smuggling, then you'd probably want the FBI or ATF to run the study. If your focus was worker safety at firearms factories, then it would be the Department of Labor.

Their position is what allows such ridiculous redundancy in federal spending, where there are 263 programs all designed to do the same thing and doing it badly. You are allowing the CDC to engage in mission creep and wasting taxpayer money if you allow them to do these studies. It's not their core role, they don't have the expertise, and other agencies are likely doing the research and doing it better than the CDC ever could. That is our objection, not that studies of this type are being done at all.



Lol! Talk about straw man! Holy shit! My post was to highlight the stupidity of those that oppose the CDC doing research for the sole reason that they think the CDC should only be dealing with disease control (matt1970 adds to that list) because that's the only thing in their name.

What's funny about your post is that I made no such claims about your opinion on government redundancy or you not wanting any studies and yet you accuse me of a straw man argument!

Fucking priceless!
 
You don't get it and you are buying into something sold by President Snooper and Vice President Hypocrite.

The real problem is why America is so violent to begin with. Why do so many want to harm others? Instead Snooper wants to focus on one aspect which gives him political hay while ignoring the more critical issue, but I allow that he's too unprincipled, narcissistic or ignorant to get it.

Yeh, I know. Obama is wrong, by definition, so anything he wants is wrong. It all comes together in your mind.

Hell, he'd probably get more of what he wants by claiming to want the opposite. If he wanted more surveillance, the best thing he could do to get it would be to say he's ending it, at which point Repubs would scream bloody murder about Pertekting Merricuh! from Terrarists!
 
Heh. In other words, framing the facts is obviously bad while framing fantasy isn't, right?

Heck, we're better off w/o the facts, right?

I mean, guns are an emotional issue, so let's just keep it that way, a fact free zone where truthiness rules.

You realize nothing you just said refutes anything I said, right?

You want facts? Here's the history you failed to learn:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...trol-should-not-receive-gun-research-funding/

Virtually all of the scores of CDC-funded firearms studies conducted since 1985 had reached conclusions favoring stricter gun control. This should have come as no surprise, given that ever since 1979, the official goal of the CDC’s parent agency, the U.S. Public Health Service, had been “…to reduce the number of handguns in private ownership”, starting with a 25% reduction by the turn of the century.”

Ten senators who strongly supported the CDC gun research funding ban put their reasons in writing: “This research is designed to, and is used to, promote a campaign to reduce lawful firearms ownership in America…Funding redundant research initiatives, particularly those which are driven by a social-policy agenda, simply does not make sense.”

Sociologist David Bordura and epidemiologist David Cowan characterized the public health literature on guns at that time as “advocacy based upon political beliefs rather than scientific fact”. Noting that The New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of the American Medical Association were the main outlets for CDC-funded studies of firearms, they observed that “reports” with findings not advocating strict gun control were rarely cited. Bordura and Cowan found that “little is cited from the criminological or sociological field”, and also that the articles that are cited “are almost always by medical or public health researchers.”

All too often, they witnessed that “assumptions are presented as fact:”… that there is a causal association between gun ownership and risk of violence, that this association is consistent across all demographic categories, and that additional legislation will reduce the prevalence of firearms and consequently reduce the incidence of violence.” They concluded that “…incestuous and selective literature citations may be acceptable for political tracts, but they introduce a bias into scientific publications…Stating as fact associations which may be demonstrably false is not just unscientific, it is unprincipled.”

Back in the 90s the left was politicizing the science of gun control as much as Republicans politicize the science of climate change today, with many of the same methods. I see no reason why the situation today would be any different if they were allowed to run with their research.
 
Unless of course handguns in private ownership are associated with a greater risk of injury from firearms... which they are.

No shit, and driving cars is associated with a greater risk of dying in a car crash. Yet plenty of people drive cars their entire lives and don't die, just as many gun owners own guns their whole lives and aren't shot.

In addition, the study you're referencing fully admits that it did not evaluate the potential positive benefits of gun ownership, and essentially chased down death certificates.
 
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And if you can project that motive onto the CDC, it gives you reason to believe it's true in the first place, right?

Did you perchance notice anything circular happening there? In your head?

Of course not. Your worldview would crumble if you ever did.

What sort of honest & unbiased study would you prefer? One that proceeds from the premise that guns are God's gift to Merricuns?

I know I'd prefer a study that actually takes into account other causes of crime, and that doesn't tacitly blame guns for deaths that were more accurately caused by, say, involvement with gangs; or drug trafficking.
 
No shit, and driving cars is associated with a greater risk of dying in a car crash. Yet plenty of people drive cars their entire lives and don't die, just as many gun owners own guns their whole lives and aren't shot.

No idea why the CDC would care about any of that.

In addition, the study you're referencing fully admits that it did not evaluate the potential positive benefits of gun ownership, and essentially chased down death certificates.

1.) One of the CDC's missions is to reduce injuries to Americans.
2.) Firearms increase your risk of firearm injury.
3.) The CDC therefore wants fewer people to own firearms, in order to reduce injury.
 
The Center for Disease Control exists to protect public health, not just to control diseases. Your objection is over the name, not the actual mandate. That's dumb.
.

Well hell, we might as well have the FBI exploring Mars and NASA providing law enforcement and investigate crimes.
 
No idea why the CDC would care about any of that.



1.) One of the CDC's missions is to reduce injuries to Americans.
2.) Firearms increase your risk of firearm injury.
3.) The CDC therefore wants fewer people to own firearms, in order to reduce injury.

You're right, the CDC doesn't care about investigating any potential positive aspects of firearm ownership; or investigating the events that lead to various firearm-related injuries; and isn't properly equipped to do so anyway.

Which is exactly why they are the wrong people to research gun violence.
 
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