Now that starcraft 2 has been out for more than a year...

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Majes

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2008
1,164
148
106
Starcraft 2 was a HUGE dissapointment...
I'm not talking about the gameplay although the game is horribly balanced...
Im talking about battle.net 2.0...

Take a look at Warcraft 3 and you will see the basic things B-net 2.0 is missing. Where are clans? Where are tournaments? Why did Blizzard not even have chat rooms at release!??! The game was supposed to have all of these things!
I had a dedicated group of about 40 players who had played years of Warcraft 3 together and were seriously pumped to play Starcraft 2 for a few years. None of us play anymore... The ladder for SC2 was an improvement, but the custom games are a major fail. NONE of them are better than anything that was created for W3... I worked my way up to masters in 1v1 and won some money in local tournaments. But the lack of B-net 2.0 features killed the game for me.

I was hoping it would last me 4-5 years...
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
Yeah even games without resources or tech advancement (like World In Conflict) have some micromanaging at the beginning just to make sure your ducks are in a row.

REAL micro-managing applies to games most modern players dont even know about, like the old school grognard games where every round required loads of planning and executing.

SC2 is so quick that you don't get a chance to sit back and plan a varied strategy. It's just 'click, click, click' at the start and follow the same strategy over and over again. So broing compared to BW...I loved the single-player but was very disappointed in the longevity of SC2 compared to the original.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
SC2 is so quick that you don't get a chance to sit back and plan a varied strategy. It's just 'click, click, click' at the start and follow the same strategy over and over again. So broing compared to BW...I loved the single-player but was very disappointed in the longevity of SC2 compared to the original.

what.

Did you ever play competitively in SC1? Try planting vulture mines without "click click click". My APM is way lower in SC2 than I was in SC1. SC2's AI is so much more intelligent that you can be more Macro-centric, which is why "blobbing" is a new phenomenon in SC2.

In SC1 I had to have somewhere around 60 APM just to make sure my SCVs are all mining different patches. Forget trying to control even 2 groups of 12 lings each to make sure they don't get stuck, it shoots up to like 100 when I'm managing 3 bases because that's around my max. I rarely get that high in SC2, it averages around 30-40 tops.

The single player? Meh. Not the major selling point. I had fun and the story is alright.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,081
136
BUMP!


Ok, I hadnt played in a while. Had to re-ladder. Went up against an already ranked guy, bronze 40. I spammed marines and won without massive resistance. Is that still acceptable behavior?
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
BUMP!


Ok, I hadnt played in a while. Had to re-ladder. Went up against an already ranked guy, bronze 40. I spammed marines and won without massive resistance. Is that still acceptable behavior?

winning is winning amirite
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
20,958
16,193
136
I don't have any criticisms of the campaign, except that possibly the difference between 'normal' and 'hard' in places can be better defined as 'really easy' and 'absurdly difficult'.

Multiplayer is great. I'm glad not to have to round people up myself for a particular type of game, BN does that for me. Definite improvement.

My only other criticism is to do with one of the game's strengths that also happens to be a curse. Multiplayer games are ruined a lot of the time by someone wanting to rush in order to get achievements quicker. I'm thinking "yeah, thanks a lot mate, I was here to enjoy myself and you're here to stop it as quickly as possible".

I really respect Blizzard for patching SC1 all these years though. I can't see me playing it again though, 640x480 is just painful unless it can be windowed and upscaled while retaining the aspect ratio.

Re: 'winning is winning amirite' - err, it's a game dude. People play to enjoy it, and even the loser of the game should have still enjoyed it. Winning at any cost is what has turned me off most multiplayer games. When I was winning at CounterStrike, I would vary my strategy, try new things, something crazy, who cares. It's just a game. Do something inventive for a change instead of spamming marines.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
20,958
16,193
136
To be fair there are strategies with SC2 but the problem is theres usually one "best" strategy for each race. Once somebody figures it out then everybody copies it until someone figures out a better one. I've watched the transition over the past year. (Never learned any well enough myself, but I can see other players using them.)

With terrans I find that there are quite a few interesting and good tactics to employ. I like the fact that there isn't an overall air superiority unit for terrans. With protoss however the void ray and the stalker are just too general purpose IMO. I'm not that experienced with zerg in SC2 so I won't comment there.
 

I4AT

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2006
2,631
3
81
Starcraft 2 was a HUGE dissapointment...
I'm not talking about the gameplay although the game is horribly balanced...
Im talking about battle.net 2.0...

Take a look at Warcraft 3 and you will see the basic things B-net 2.0 is missing. Where are clans? Where are tournaments? Why did Blizzard not even have chat rooms at release!??! The game was supposed to have all of these things!
I had a dedicated group of about 40 players who had played years of Warcraft 3 together and were seriously pumped to play Starcraft 2 for a few years. None of us play anymore... The ladder for SC2 was an improvement, but the custom games are a major fail. NONE of them are better than anything that was created for W3... I worked my way up to masters in 1v1 and won some money in local tournaments. But the lack of B-net 2.0 features killed the game for me.

I was hoping it would last me 4-5 years...

Same for me, I still play Broodwar from time to time but I haven't touched SC2 in over a year. I felt like a robot just playing random matches against random players on random maps for points. There was zero social interaction which was half the fun of the original game for me, meeting up with other regulars for rounds of casual obs matches. They could have improved Bnet, instead they took about 10 steps back. A simple re-skin of the UI would've been a hell of a lot better than what we got with 2.0.
 
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finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
81
In the beginning, Terrans were so over powered it wasn't even funny. People can come at you with massive rines, and you'd have a hard time beating that. Now the game is so balanced, it's crazy. Well I feel that Zerg is still a little bit more powerful, but if you have awesome micro-management of your marines, you'll be fine against banelings. Then there are those insanely fast mutalisks... wow... Talk about being harassed!

Anyways, I feel: Terrans are good for Early to early mid, and requires an insane amount of micro management to be proficient in mid-late game.

Protoss are awesome late mid to late game.

Zerg has the mid to late as well.

I use to be able to roll over people < 10 minutes with a marine rush by 5:30. Now, they'll be banelings. They'll be a bunker. They'll be stalkers with a sentry... It's not that easy anymore :(

awesome game over all
 

Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
0
BNet 2.0 is crap and as far as I understand the cornerstone of its design is greed.

There's too much rock-paper-scissors instead of the soft balance of BW. A lot of the units feel too plain / boring / unresponsive: corruptor, thor, colossus, voidray, hellion, mothership. Many of the most fun units of BW were removed: vulture, reaver, defiler, goliath, wraith, lurker, arbiter. New siege tanks are too wussy in siege mode. New creep mechanics are fun. Terran building micro is fun. Ravens are fun. Reapers are fun but just a little too useless. Autocasts, SCV and command automation are great and enable a player with poor mechanics like me to get reasonably into the meat of the game. I never put in the practice necessary to play BW properly. If I had, I might like it more, but now SCII wins.

Plot sucks. I don't like how Kerrigan's character is written, how it's rendered, or the new voice actor. And it looks to me like the next game will be worse in that regard.

I played the game on brutal first and then replayed the whole thing on easier difficulty to do all remaining achievements. I thought the missions were fun, varied and entertaining. That is quite an achievement from Blizzard considering I had already played 100+ hours of multiplayer in beta and climbed to diamond before jumping into the SP campaign.
 
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Molondo

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2005
2,529
1
0
BUMP!


Ok, I hadnt played in a while. Had to re-ladder. Went up against an already ranked guy, bronze 40. I spammed marines and won without massive resistance. Is that still acceptable behavior?

Works at the bottom leagues, won't get you far.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
BUMP!


Ok, I hadnt played in a while. Had to re-ladder. Went up against an already ranked guy, bronze 40. I spammed marines and won without massive resistance. Is that still acceptable behavior?

Spamming Marines isn't really cheese or anything. Marines are actually a rather versatile unit with their lack of gas and ability to shoot ground and air. The only problem is that they are rather squishy. :p

A modest player could have easily held off your spamming and went for some good AoE that would demolish heavy Marine play.

Did you at least get stim and shields for the Marines? :p
 

eLiu

Diamond Member
Jun 4, 2001
6,407
1
0
Spamming Marines isn't really cheese or anything. Marines are actually a rather versatile unit with their lack of gas and ability to shoot ground and air. The only problem is that they are rather squishy. :p

A modest player could have easily held off your spamming and went for some good AoE that would demolish heavy Marine play.

Did you at least get stim and shields for the Marines? :p

In a diamond/master 4player game, I once monobattled marines. Stim, shields, 3/3 ups. I was pumping the marines out of 30 reactor'd rax. Fucking rax were EVERYWHERE lol.

60 marines every 25 seconds proved overwhelmingly awesome XD I think I was on 3base with other players giving me minerals in trade for my gas.
 

Visaoni

Senior member
May 15, 2008
213
0
0
...

My only other criticism is to do with one of the game's strengths that also happens to be a curse. Multiplayer games are ruined a lot of the time by someone wanting to rush in order to get achievements quicker. I'm thinking "yeah, thanks a lot mate, I was here to enjoy myself and you're here to stop it as quickly as possible".

...

Re: 'winning is winning amirite' - err, it's a game dude. People play to enjoy it, and even the loser of the game should have still enjoyed it. Winning at any cost is what has turned me off most multiplayer games. When I was winning at CounterStrike, I would vary my strategy, try new things, something crazy, who cares. It's just a game. Do something inventive for a change instead of spamming marines.

What? You are complaining about people trying to... win? In a competitive multiplayer game?

Winning is what drives the enjoyment of competitive multiplayer games. The "winning is winning" mindset should be encouraged. Frankly, there is nothing inherently fun about making expansions, workers, and units. Hell, there isn't really anything that fun about moving an army around. You could argue watching a fight unfold is enjoyable eye candy I guess, but nothing more. What makes it fun is that all of that is intimately tied to winning.

It isn't that the game is only fun when you win, and that when you lose you should go off and ragequit because clearly you aren't having fun. But figuring out how to win is fun. Dieing to a cheese is incredibly frustrating, but when you figure out how to hold it off you'll be ecstatic. Finding ways to not only survive early pushes, but turn them to your eventual advantage is fun. Hell, making that early push yourself and punishing your opponent for not being ready for them is fun, as is figuring out how to make it into the later stages of the game when that early push just dies without doing any damage. The only reason any of this is fun is because it all has a purpose, and that is to win the game.

Holding onto these ideas that certain types of gameplay should be discouraged because they "aren't fun" or are only used for winning is totally unproductive. It makes you a worse player, and actually reduces the enjoyment you can find in the game.


On an unrelated note, I've been playing more SC2 recently. I've finally stopped just playing and actually gotten to practicing. I started working on my larva injects. My goal was just to have perfect larva injects, and nothing else. I sort of fell into going mass Roach because it was easy and not as stupid sounding as mass ling. I figured I would do it for at least a few games a day until I started to get a good feel for the inject timing. I expected to get stomped, badly. Except a funny thing happened. I not only wasn't getting destroyed, but I was destroying. I was winning even more than when I was actually trying to do everything. I'd max on basically all Roaches when my opponent was often around 100, maybe 120 supply. Some even lower, and a few higher. My almost totally unmicroed Roach force would just roll in and win, except when the opponent was matching me fairly well and had 160ish+ supply - then I tended to just die.

That was less than a week ago. I haven't been playing that much, but I've already got a decent feel for the inject timings and am now able to do a little basic micro of my army. I'm still just doing the basic mass Roach, max, walk in style for the most part. But it feels a lot better than before. Before I always knew all these things I was trying to do and doing poorly, now I'm doing a few things well, and just not worrying about the rest.

The one bad thing? I get a lot fewer gg's.
 
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MustangSVT

Lifer
Oct 7, 2000
11,554
12
81
I don't have any criticisms of the campaign, except that possibly the difference between 'normal' and 'hard' in places can be better defined as 'really easy' and 'absurdly difficult'.

Multiplayer is great. I'm glad not to have to round people up myself for a particular type of game, BN does that for me. Definite improvement.

My only other criticism is to do with one of the game's strengths that also happens to be a curse. Multiplayer games are ruined a lot of the time by someone wanting to rush in order to get achievements quicker. I'm thinking "yeah, thanks a lot mate, I was here to enjoy myself and you're here to stop it as quickly as possible".

I really respect Blizzard for patching SC1 all these years though. I can't see me playing it again though, 640x480 is just painful unless it can be windowed and upscaled while retaining the aspect ratio.

Re: 'winning is winning amirite' - err, it's a game dude. People play to enjoy it, and even the loser of the game should have still enjoyed it. Winning at any cost is what has turned me off most multiplayer games. When I was winning at CounterStrike, I would vary my strategy, try new things, something crazy, who cares. It's just a game. Do something inventive for a change instead of spamming marines.


You are good at contradicting yourself. :D:thumbsup:
 

silvan4now

Member
Oct 4, 2011
128
0
0
all i can say is that blizzard didn't disappoint me ; ....
i was so afraid that this release will brake for me the passion i have for the starcraft series. well they managed to increase it even more
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,081
136
Spamming Marines isn't really cheese or anything. Marines are actually a rather versatile unit with their lack of gas and ability to shoot ground and air. The only problem is that they are rather squishy. :p

A modest player could have easily held off your spamming and went for some good AoE that would demolish heavy Marine play.

Did you at least get stim and shields for the Marines? :p

Nope, just improved factories churning them out, 8 at a time.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
20,958
16,193
136
What? You are complaining about people trying to... win? In a competitive multiplayer game?

Winning is what drives the enjoyment of competitive multiplayer games. The "winning is winning" mindset should be encouraged. Frankly, there is nothing inherently fun about making expansions, workers, and units. Hell, there isn't really anything that fun about moving an army around. You could argue watching a fight unfold is enjoyable eye candy I guess, but nothing more. What makes it fun is that all of that is intimately tied to winning.

And if loads of people just use the same tactic every time they play, it's still fun?

It isn't that the game is only fun when you win, and that when you lose you should go off and ragequit because clearly you aren't having fun. But figuring out how to win is fun. Dieing to a cheese is incredibly frustrating, but when you figure out how to hold it off you'll be ecstatic.

I'm not only talking about human vs. human, but people playing co-op cpu games and rushing. The whole thing is finished in nine minutes or less, using the same tactic that everyone has used before at least once. Is that fun?

Admittedly I think the co-op cpu 9 minute thing is happening less often nowadays, perhaps because the achievement junkies have largely got what they wanted.

Finding ways to not only survive early pushes, but turn them to your eventual advantage is fun.
What usually happens though is if one player fails to annihilate the other by rushing, the other annihilates him immediately in response. It's nice when it happens, but again it gets old, IMO.

Holding onto these ideas that certain types of gameplay should be discouraged because they "aren't fun" or are only used for winning is totally unproductive. It makes you a worse player, and actually reduces the enjoyment you can find in the game.
If you read what I wrote completely, my point was that people should be inventive, that's what makes the game fun.
 
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finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
81
WOW... i just had an insane 4v4 game with my friends, on our last placement Match. We were winning, then we were loosing, and in the end we won out. It was pretty epic... They took out ALL of our main bases, yet we won with critical units!
 

Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
0
I really respect Blizzard for patching SC1 all these years though. I can't see me playing it again though, 640x480 is just painful unless it can be windowed and upscaled while retaining the aspect ratio.
Chaoslauncher.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
The only thing I really disliked about the changes are that the units clump into those huge balls.
Also the larger units aren't that interesting. Carriers aren't that useful Colossus are boring but overall I think the game is funner as it doesn't have the frustrating mechanics of the first game. Also it is nice that Stalkers don't crash into everything on their way to places like Dragoons.

You've obviously never played with decent air support from a teammate.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
WOW... i just had an insane 4v4 game with my friends, on our last placement Match. We were winning, then we were loosing, and in the end we won out. It was pretty epic... They took out ALL of our main bases, yet we won with critical units!

Those are some of the best. I once had my main base smashed, but they didn't know about my secondary on a resource-rich island...