Now Obama wants to funnel your next car purchase into GM

[Capt Caveman]

If you didn't notice, we already had a push for ethanol in the last ten years... and it was an abject, unqualified failure. The billions of dollars pumped into the industry were largely wasted, and the effects on food prices did more to hurt consumers than the "benefits" of ethanol. The UN came out and said that America was guilty of "crimes against humanity" for using food as a fuel source, and shortly thereafter the left came out bitching about how we are hurting the poor.

This administration and their relationship with GM will lead to nothing but billions in wasted taxpayer dollars, that we don't have, and a legacy of failure for students to read about in 40 years.

If you have any doubt... go look up the figures for the Volt.... I mean Voltswagon. A larger failure you cannot find.

The Volt is hardly a failure since it hasn't even been released nationwide and has a 50,000 person waiting list.

If the gov't planned on the expansion or revitalization of farming, new crops/farm land for fuel may be enough to offset any reduction in the food crop. Yes, let's continue to go down the oil route.

The problem is there has been no revitalization of farming and food crops are now being used for fuel. Greater demand, same level of supply and obviously higher prices.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Rich people might... the working class can't afford to go out and buy a new car every 5 years.... especially a new car.

On the other hand, those that do go out and buy a new car every 5 years are usually the ones that remain working class/lower class, by their own design. They are also the ones the left claims they are the defenders of.

No, the average person replaces their vehicle on average every five years. It doesn't mean they're buying a new car, it could be replacing a used vehicle for a new used vehicle.

 

[CPA]

more alarmist crap

Was it alarmist when they pushed E85 two years ago and food prices skyrocketed? Boy, how soon we forget.

 

[Scotteq]

It's all a nefarious plan to reduce global warming:



Step 1 - Turn Food into Fuel to Reduce Emissions

Step 2 - Food~Fuel is more expensive than Dead Dinosaurs - Emissions are therefore reduced from lower consumption

Step 3 - Since we turned our food into fuel, we can now starve large segments of now~unemployed workers to death. Dead People don't drive. Emissions are further lowered.

Step 4 - Process the dead poor folk into fertilizer to grow more Food~Fuel.

Step 4A - Unemployment figures are also reduced, since we don't count the dead.

Step 5 - Profit


...and yes, I'm rolling my eyes as I type this.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I just bought a new car. It does it all including flex fuel (if you can find a flex fuel station). I see no problem with wanting people to drive smarter. More choices. Thats like complaining there isnt enough dirty water sources and you refuse to drink commie clean water.
Or you'd rather eat meat that has little worms crawling around on it.
All presidents try to guide the nation to a better place. That is nothing new.
JFK promoted entering the Peace Corps.

i also bought a new car. and a new motorcycle. neither accept anything past E10. any higher ethanol contents would destroy my vehicles.

 

[PeshakJang]

The Volt is hardly a failure since it hasn't even been released nationwide and has a 50,000 person waiting list.

If the gov't planned on the expansion or revitalization of farming, new crops/farm land for fuel may be enough to offset any reduction in the food crop. Yes, let's continue to go down the oil route.

The problem is there has been no revitalization of farming and food crops are now being used for fuel. Greater demand, same level of supply and obviously higher prices.

A vehicle that costs more to produce than the company can sell it for without being subsidized (even then it is *expensive*), which has pathetically limited range, and which incorporates technology that GM has come right out and said is not economically feasible and will require very significant advancements to make feasible.... that is what most people call a failure.

When you produce a product that only sells due to artificial demand created by government confiscation of wealth and subsidization, you're heading straight to Failville. But hey... a government-owned company producing a government-subsidized vehicle which is further promoted through government mandates that only this government-owned company will be able to meet? What could possibly be wrong with that???

 

[K1052]

A vehicle that costs more to produce than the company can sell it for without being subsidized (even then it is *expensive*), which has pathetically limited range, and which incorporates technology that GM has come right out and said is not economically feasible and will require very significant advancements to make feasible.... that is what most people call a failure.

When you produce a product that only sells due to artificial demand created by government confiscation of wealth and subsidization, you're heading straight to Failville. But hey... a government-owned company producing a government-subsidized vehicle which is further promoted through government mandates that only this government-owned company will be able to meet? What could possibly be wrong with that???

The Volt project was in progress before the government buyout. The wait list for the vehicle at even this price clearly shows there is a public appetite for what it offers.

The Volt alone isn't going to change the automotive industry. The cars and trucks built off it's technology (which will continue to improve and reduce in cost moving forward) are what will.

 

[K1052]

Was it alarmist when they pushed E85 two years ago and food prices skyrocketed? Boy, how soon we forget.

That was also attributed to increased oil prices (transport) and greater worldwide demand. Ethanol plays a part but it's smaller than many think.

The government should get rid of the farm subsidies, currently cloaked as ethanol subsidies, and use those funds to promote the industrial scale production of cellulosic ethanol which does not impinge on food supply/cost.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Good plan. With 1/3 the world population starving, use a food source to make fuel . Excellant . The needs of the few > the needs of the many.

 

[Nebor]

fine.... remove ethanol subsisdies and let people pay a hell of a lot more for ethanol fuel.

+1

 

[sandorski]

Rich people might... the working class can't afford to go out and buy a new car every 5 years.... especially a new car.

On the other hand, those that do go out and buy a new car every 5 years are usually the ones that remain working class/lower class, by their own design. They are also the ones the left claims they are the defenders of.

....and?

 

[Capt Caveman]

A vehicle that costs more to produce than the company can sell it for without being subsidized (even then it is *expensive*), which has pathetically limited range, and which incorporates technology that GM has come right out and said is not economically feasible and will require very significant advancements to make feasible.... that is what most people call a failure.

When you produce a product that only sells due to artificial demand created by government confiscation of wealth and subsidization, you're heading straight to Failville. But hey... a government-owned company producing a government-subsidized vehicle which is further promoted through government mandates that only this government-owned company will be able to meet? What could possibly be wrong with that???

394 miles is limited range? I suggest you do some homework on the Volt and on lifecycle of new technologies in general. I'm sure you thought the Toyota Prius was going to be a failure also.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

They have a newly engineered bacteria, Thermoanaerobacterium saccharolyticum, that produces ethanol. It is supposedly better than the current yeast production as it doesn't require expensive enzymes to jumpstart the process.

The government always picks the best solutions. That's why Al Franken and the others will do what they can to strangle non-corn alternatives in the crib.

Heh, that's rather amusing. Franken is Exxon.

 

[bfdd]

lol at people saying "the wait list proves it's successful" the wait list proves that? The car was already released people, they haven't even SOLD 50k yet, there are just 50k potential buyers for a car that was already released that they can't buy yet. Yeah, that's a fucking FAILURE. It's a goddamn paper launch ffs.

 

[PeshakJang]

394 miles is limited range? I suggest you do some homework on the Volt and on lifecycle of new technologies in general. I'm sure you thought the Toyota Prius was going to be a failure also.

Do your own homework. The Volt has an advertised range of 40 MILES before it has to switch over to a gasoline engine (which runs only on premium, BTW) to keep going. Most real-world tests put it at around only 25-30 miles. 25 TO 30 MILES.

So basically, no, the Volt is a failure. It's a $40,000 car that needs to be charged up overnight to give the owner an extra gallon's worth of range before it starts burning the most expensive fuel available.

And contrary to what you believe, I think the Prius is a great car, and Toyota is a great company that found a way to make the technology commercially viable, instead of relying on the government to create artificial demand for a terrible product.

 

[shortylickens]

https://picasaweb.google.com/shortylickens/PhotosCool#5329096316995035106

:awe:

 

[bfdd]

Do your own homework. The Volt has an advertised range of 40 MILES before it has to switch over to a gasoline engine (which runs only on premium, BTW) to keep going. Most real-world tests put it at around only 25-30 miles. 25 TO 30 MILES.

So basically, no, the Volt is a failure. It's a $40,000 car that needs to be charged up overnight to give the owner an extra gallon's worth of range before it starts burning the most expensive fuel available.

And contrary to what you believe, I think the Prius is a great car, and Toyota is a great company that found a way to make the technology commercially viable, instead of relying on the government to create artificial demand for a terrible product.

I agree. The Prius is tight as hell. My parents have one, I really enjoy driving it when I get the chance.

 

[PeshakJang]

https://picasaweb.google.com/shortylickens/PhotosCool#5329096316995035106

:awe:

lol... nice. Though Ford doesn't really belong. They had their rough spot, but they took lesson from Japan and started turning out good products, not a minute too soon. The Fords of the last 10 years are miles ahead of the Fords of the 90s... and they survived as a result. GM never took the hint, and kept building shit, expecting people to buy it. Had the laws of nature been left to their own devices, they would have paid the price for it too.... if not for those meddling kids in congress.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Do your own homework. The Volt has an advertised range of 40 MILES before it has to switch over to a gasoline engine (which runs only on premium, BTW) to keep going. Most real-world tests put it at around only 25-30 miles. 25 TO 30 MILES.

So basically, no, the Volt is a failure. It's a $40,000 car that needs to be charged up overnight to give the owner an extra gallon's worth of range before it starts burning the most expensive fuel available.

And contrary to what you believe, I think the Prius is a great car, and Toyota is a great company that found a way to make the technology commercially viable, instead of relying on the government to create artificial demand for a terrible product.

Again, do your homework, 394 miles is not limited. Most vehicles can not get that using a conventional engine.

You do know the same credit use to or still applies to the Prius. How do you think they became popular?

edit - http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=31529277#post31529277

 

[Zebo]

I agree. The Prius is tight as hell. My parents have one, I really enjoy driving it when I get the chance.

Prius is a rip off compared to a similarly equiped Ecco or whatever cheap 4 banger you want to compare Prius to amortized over any mileage and fuel up to $10.

People are idiots tho.

Volt is even worse.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Really fuck ethanol.

Ethanol doesn't suck because of alarmists bullshit claims that we'll be using all of our corn to fuel cars.

Ethanol sucks because:

- It's known to destroys engines and parts (oxygen sensors for example) in older cars and motorcycles.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/list_e10_engine_damage.html

- It's mpg benefits are crap-tastic and can lower the mpg of vehicles by as much as 40% in extreme cases.

- It burns "cleanly" in the sense that it does not produce as much energy as regular gasoline thus loss of power and loss of mpg is a noticeable effect on vehicles along with many other side effects which will effect the pocket books of drivers.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html

Overall ethanol is just a sorry ass fuel alternative to gasoline. Hell I'd think a better expenditure of resources would be furthering the new break through in the development of bio oil which recently occurred at a private lab in Spain and which already has Exxon-Mobile investing 600 million in development and research funding.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.7cd965e6acedf0092b81962b8499b71c.311

 

[PeshakJang]

Again, do your homework, 394 miles is not limited. Most vehicles can not get that using a conventional engine.

You're being intentionally daft. Let's go over some numbers to clear this up.

The Chevy Volt, according to the EPA, has an official range of 35 miles on batteries, and then 344 miles on gas (premium). These are the official numbers, and actual range varies. Chevy reports 25-50 miles on all electric.

Running on strictly gas, reported efficiency is 37 MPG combined.

By comparison, a Prius gets 50 MPG combined.

A Volt has about a 9.3 gallon tank. 9.3 gallons of premium at about $4.00 average gives us $37.2 for a tank.

A Prius has about a 12 gallon capacity, and runs best on regular fuel. $3.73 average gives us $44.76 for a tank.

According to the EPA, a Prius will cost $1.84 on average to drive 25 miles. A Volt will cost $.99 for all electric, and $2.65 for fuel.

Total yearly fuel cost for the Prius is $1104. For the Volt? Over $2100 in combined fuel/electricity.

What about environmental impact? The Prius consumes on average, 6.9 barrels of oil per year, while the Volt consumes 9.7 barrels per year.

The Prius emits 3.9 tons of CO2 annually, the Volt emits 5.1 tons.

The Prius also has 4 additional cubic feet of passenger volume, and 4 additional cubic feet of cargo volume compared to the Volt.

Price tags? Prius goes for around $23,000. The Volt starts around $41,000, all subsidies excluded.

You do know the same credit use to or still applies to the Prius. How do you think they became popular?

Wrong again. The Prius took advantage of a hybrid vehicle credit signed into law by Bush, which amounted to about $3,400 and expired last December. The Volt takes advantage of a plug-in electric tax credit, which was lobbied for by GM, of $7,500 for the purchase of the vehicle, $1,000 for purchase of the charging equipment (Yes, you need that too... tax credit can be up to $30,000 for businesses), and state subsidies which can be up to $5,000 in CA.

So ruling out variable state subsidies, the Volt is subsidized to the tune of about $8,500 in direct tax credits, while the Prius took advantage of less than half that.

Oh, I'm not done either. As part of the stimulus bill, GM took advantage of somewhere around $2.4 billion in subsidies, loans, and grants which were labeled as the "Advanced Vehicle Technology Grant Program". And by GM's own statements, they admit that unless significant further investments and advances are made in the field, the technology used in the Volt will not be commercially viable for a very long time.


So yeah, I have done my homework, and the results are pretty glaringly obvious. The Volt is an abject failure in all aspects. Proven technology already exists in current hybrids such as the Prius, or Ford Fusion. The Volt exists solely as a misguided, inept venture into government-mandated social change. It is nothing more than a drain on resources that makes some people feel "good" about themselves for being so progressive.

Bottom line, do your homework before lecturing others to do the same.

 

[Genx87]

I really cant believe, well I can believe, that the Obama administration killed fuel cell funding in favor of this horseshit.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Lol!

Wait, you were crying about the Volt having a range of 35 miles. Now, it's 20-50 miles on electric and 344 extended with gas. Please explain to me how the Volt uses $2.65 in fuel on a 25 mile drive when in all electric mode, the Volt averages 93 mpg.

Now, looking at the Volt with the average American daily work commute of 30-32 miles the need for the Volt to use gas would be exception and not the rule.

Volt:

Based on 15,000 miles using EPA combined mpg average - Prius uses $1,119 of regular gas and Volt uses $1,000 in premium gas(note this amount will be lower due to the number of miles in EV mode).

Surprised you didn't cry about the US Gov't providing a tax credit for a foreign auto company. You do also know that this is a first generation vehicle. The first generation Prius sold 300 vehicles in it's first year. Chevy is predicting sales of 10k vehicles in it's first year.

So, yes a domestic first generation vehicle that reduces the need for foreign oil that hasn't even been nationally released with a 50k waiting list is a failure. Nice logic.

Again, do your homework. It's tiring.

edit - seeing your sig, a double lol!!!

 

[bfdd]

Prius is a rip off compared to a similarly equiped Ecco or whatever cheap 4 banger you want to compare Prius to amortized over any mileage and fuel up to $10.

People are idiots tho.

Volt is even worse.

Maybe so, but the Prius is a pretty nice car even for the price. They bought it used, for like 10 grand I think. Honestly the generator design is retarded with a gasoline generator. But with the stranglehold gasoline has on our society no one will make a diesel generator hybrid for the USA.