Now Obama wants to funnel your next car purchase into GM

Dec 30, 2004
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New legislation would force virtually all cars to run on ethanol

The Obama administration and Democrats in Congress are facing resistance from the auto industry about a controversial proposal that would force consumers to use more ethanol in a bid to reduce fossil fuels consumption.

I. What's in the Bill?

The new bill, The Biofuels Expansion Act of 2011, has a number of provisions, but among its most controversial are efforts to expand government spending on ethanol and force ethanol on consumers.

Sponsored by Senators Tom Harkin (D-Iowa); Tim Johnson (D-South Dakota); Amy Klobuchar (D/"Farmer-Labor Party"- Minnesota); and Al Franken (D/"Farmer-Labor Party"-Minnesota), the bill could massively benefit corn farmers in the Midwest, but may not be so rosy for the rest of the country.

Under its proposals, government spending on ethanol would leap from $50M USD in 2012 to $350M USD by 2016. The government would also provide loan guarantees to construct new ethanol pipelines.

But most importantly, the bill would force 90 percent of automobiles sold by 2016 to capable of running on an E85 fuel blend -- fuel that is 85 percent ethanol, and 15 percent gas.

II. The Good

There are some positives about the bill. The bill could promote the growth of cellulosic ethanol research and production. Cellulosic ethanol has few downsides other than the cost. It comes from waste, is completely renewable, has a net harvest-to-pump reduction in green house gases, nitrogen, and sulfur emissions.

And the bill could promote other non-corn biofuels such as algae, something the Navy has been actively dabbling in for several years.

In our past discussions with alternative biofuel companies like Coskata, most expressed that they didn't need subsidies to survive and eventually be profitable, but that subsidies could accelerate the process.

III. The Bad

Unfortunately the bad here is substantial as well. The bill would push for higher consumption of corn-based ethanol. That would be extremely lucrative for corn farmers who long struggled to find new ways to sell the massive amount of corn.

However, most economists agree that it would likely drive up food prices, at least temporarily. An increase in the cost of corn meal, corn syrup, and livestock corn-feed would create a cascading effect, the net result of which would likely be higher prices at the super-market checkout.

Further, the auto industry would be forced to shoulder a $2B USD load in upgrading their engines, much of which would be passed on to the consumer.

Today, thanks to federal and state legislation, most of the fuel you get at the pump already is a 10 percent ethanol, 90 percent gasoline blend (E10). Engines can tolerate E10, but it wears on them and is less energy dense (so you get fewer miles per gallon of fuel).

E85, by contrast would break a normal engine. So automakers would have to outfit their engines to be capable of running on such fuels. Of the major automakers, GM is closest to this goal, having heavily invested in an ethanol push. By contrast Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai/Kia have minimal investments in E85 vehicles.

Consumers would likely be hit by a triple price increase. At the supermarket they'd pay more for food; at the pump they'd pay more for fuel (as ethanol, on average, currently costs more in mpg than gas); and they would pay more when purchasing new fuels.

Ultimately this may cut new automotive sales, in turn leading to job loss.

Essentially all this lost wealth would be funneled mostly to farmers, with a small cut going to researchers.

Further, corn ethanol has been scientifically shown to increase emissions. Regardless of your opinion of more carbon dioxide being pumped into the atmosphere, you probably would be slightly more concerned about the increase in nitrogen and sulfur emissions that are harmful to human health, buildings, animal, and plant life.

IV. The Ugly

It’s no mystery why four farming state Senators would support a corn-bill. It's good for the constituents. But beyond that, it's good for their party. The corn lobby has poured millions per year into "convincing" politicians of the "merits" of corn ethanol. That stream of funding has drawn a degree of bipartisan support. Former President George W. Bush (R) was a strong proponent of ethanol, even backing measures to increase loans, government use, and blending at the pump.

Surprisingly, though, one of the staunchest opponents of the bill comes from a farm state. Sen. James Inhofe (R-Oklahoma), the Environment and Public Works Committee's top Republican, has led opposition to the bill.

Ironically the debate may be less about the merits of the bill and more a test of the political muscle of various lobbyists.

Supporting the opposition are the food and oil lobbies, the latter of which has been particularly active in recent years, funneling millions to federal political candidates. The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, the trade association representing Ford Motor Co., Chrysler Group LLC, Toyota Motor Corp. and eight others, has also thrown its weight behind the opposition, concerned about the cost increase to upgrade the nation's vehicles.

V. What's Next

The bill was just debated by the Senate Energy Committee on Thursday. You can find an audio recording of that debate here.

The bill will now move to a procedural vote by the Committee. If approved, a Senator can then motion to have it brought to the floor.

While the bill likely will stall in the Republican-controlled House, it's possible it could be approved in exchange for Democratic concessions during the budget debates. And it’s also possible that the corn lobby might be able to sweeten the deal with campaign contributions enough to change the minds of enough House Republicans to pass the bill.
http://www.dailytech.com/Auto+Indus...+to+Force+Corn+Ethanol+on+US/article21331.htm

there you have it. The Obama administration, spending money we don't have to make us buy cars that we don't want from the bankrupted company that turned into the worst investment the Obama administration has made to pollute the air more with fuels that will destroy your car, fuels grown from petroleum based fertilized corn that would have otherwise been eaten for food. It sure feels good to stick it to US. I personally can't wait until our economy is leveled down.

Now, if Obama wanted to keep it to strictly non-Corn-based ethanol sources that don't make use of polluting petroleum fertilizers, that's something entirely different.

Oh yeah, and don't forget that Ethanol is only about 70% as energy dense as Gasoline. So that 30MPG car will now be getting about 22MPG. "I guess if you're driving that SUV getting 8MPG, you deserve the gas prices![chuckles]"--Obama

I prefer no one-word replies. Lets keep it to a real discussion folks.
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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lol what fucking bullshit. How is raising fuel prices, raising food prices and forcing people to upgrade their vehicles a good thing?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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$ should be spent developing Non-Food sources of Ethanol, otherwise I don't see much to get upset about by this move. It addresses numerous concerns quite well.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,825
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lol what fucking bullshit. How is raising fuel prices, raising food prices and forcing people to upgrade their vehicles a good thing?

People "Upgrade" their vehicles all the time(every 5 years or so). This is a weak argument.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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$ should be spent developing Non-Food sources of Ethanol, otherwise I don't see much to get upset about by this move. It addresses numerous concerns quite well.

It does nothing of the sort.

It's an obvious money grab for a few states at the expense of the rest of us, and pure giveaway to big Agribusiness. Yes, let's all cheer at another exemple of our politicians bowing to their lobbyist masters.

Fern
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,825
6,374
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It does nothing of the sort.

It's an obvious money grab for a few states at the expense of the rest of us, and pure giveaway to big Agribusiness. Yes, let's all cheer at another exemple of our politicians bowing to their lobbyist masters.

Fern

Like I said, focus on Non-Food sources.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
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I just bought a new car. It does it all including flex fuel (if you can find a flex fuel station). I see no problem with wanting people to drive smarter. More choices. Thats like complaining there isnt enough dirty water sources and you refuse to drink commie clean water.
Or you'd rather eat meat that has little worms crawling around on it.
All presidents try to guide the nation to a better place. That is nothing new.
JFK promoted entering the Peace Corps.
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
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Hmm, government picking and choosing what technology we should use while in the pockets of special interest, what could possibly go wrong?

Fail as usual...
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
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Might be a good time to become a corn farmer. Good way to create new jobs, produce our own fuel supply and decrease depsndence on foreign oil.
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
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With food prices falling this would help prop up farmers that are struggling.

Wait ...
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
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Political posturing in the run-up to the elections. Dem's throwing out a lot of feel-good plans to motivate the base. They're not feasible or economically viable for a variety or reasons so they know the Rep's will oppose them.

Fodder for the elections. Talking points to berate 'the enemy'.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
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I think a key thing for the future is reducing fuel consumption, not necessarily changing it. CAFE can continue to force better EPA mileage.

Some of this is coming too late anyway. I believe oil is going to remain historically elevated indefinitely. $40-50 barrel just seems a fantasy now unless it's at the tail end of a bubble sell off for a short time only. Consumers will, by necessity, move toward higher mileage cars. They are now and this trend will accelerate.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
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People "Upgrade" their vehicles all the time(every 5 years or so). This is a weak argument.

Rich people might... the working class can't afford to go out and buy a new car every 5 years.... especially a new car.

On the other hand, those that do go out and buy a new car every 5 years are usually the ones that remain working class/lower class, by their own design. They are also the ones the left claims they are the defenders of.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
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Might be a good time to become a corn farmer. Good way to create new jobs, produce our own fuel supply and decrease depsndence on foreign oil.

If you didn't notice, we already had a push for ethanol in the last ten years... and it was an abject, unqualified failure. The billions of dollars pumped into the industry were largely wasted, and the effects on food prices did more to hurt consumers than the "benefits" of ethanol. The UN came out and said that America was guilty of "crimes against humanity" for using food as a fuel source, and shortly thereafter the left came out bitching about how we are hurting the poor.

This administration and their relationship with GM will lead to nothing but billions in wasted taxpayer dollars, that we don't have, and a legacy of failure for students to read about in 40 years.

If you have any doubt... go look up the figures for the Volt.... I mean Voltswagon. A larger failure you cannot find.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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$ should be spent developing Non-Food sources of Ethanol, otherwise I don't see much to get upset about by this move.

I would be in support of that. As would most republicans.

So, sandorski, if they actually want to get us down this path, why won't they propose a REAL bill instead? Because it's about handouts to the democratic constituents, that's why.
 
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Dec 30, 2004
12,553
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I think a key thing for the future is reducing fuel consumption, not necessarily changing it. CAFE can continue to force better EPA mileage.

Some of this is coming too late anyway. I believe oil is going to remain historically elevated indefinitely. $40-50 barrel just seems a fantasy now unless it's at the tail end of a bubble sell off for a short time only. Consumers will, by necessity, move toward higher mileage cars. They are now and this trend will accelerate.

fantasy as long as we're not allowed to drill here and offshore, but China is allowed to, yeah.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,122
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But most importantly, the bill would force 90 percent of automobiles sold by 2016 to capable of running on an E85 fuel blend -- fuel that is 85 percent ethanol, and 15 percent gas.

Ah, the ultimate solution to global warming. Starve people to DEATH by throwing the entire food crop into your gas engine.
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
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Ah, the ultimate solution to global warming. Starve people to DEATH by throwing the entire food crop into your gas engine.

Doesn't surprise me.
What was the solution to a terrible economy and starving people during the 30s?
To burn crops and slaughter cattle of course!
Government is pure genius I tell you.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
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Ah, the ultimate solution to global warming. Starve people to DEATH by throwing the entire food crop into your gas engine.

For all the talk of helping the poor and working class the left has done, they've probably worked the most toward destroying them through increased prices and corporatist mandates than any other administration to date.

Hell... I would bet money that before the end of his term, he'll move to pass additional energy mandates that effectively make GE the only company able to sell conforming products.

He's making GW Bush look like a liberal with all his corporatism.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
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I just bought a new car. It does it all including flex fuel (if you can find a flex fuel station). I see no problem with wanting people to drive smarter. More choices. Thats like complaining there isnt enough dirty water sources and you refuse to drink commie clean water.
Or you'd rather eat meat that has little worms crawling around on it.
All presidents try to guide the nation to a better place. That is nothing new.
JFK promoted entering the Peace Corps.

fine.... remove ethanol subsisdies and let people pay a hell of a lot more for ethanol fuel.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
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0
They have a newly engineered bacteria, Thermoanaerobacterium saccharolyticum, that produces ethanol. It is supposedly better than the current yeast production as it doesn't require expensive enzymes to jumpstart the process.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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Big surprise that the corn hole delegation wants us to put more of their make work piss water in our gas tanks.