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Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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And I'll remind that there wasn't a State or Government sponsered 'militia,' meaning the State National Guard, for 99 years after the Bill of Rights was ratified.

The Second Amendment as well as all the others concerns individual rights!



<< The object is that all men be armed.. >>

Thomas Jefferson

GirlFriday That is sound reasoning, but the NRA's Eddie Eagle Program that is available for FREE to ANY school in the US has as it's main point....&quot;If you see a gun...don't touch...get away...and tell an adult!&quot;

Now the question is...How do you teach our children how to tell an Adult from a Gun Grabbing Liberal?:(
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
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&quot;A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.&quot; So says the Second Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. Unfortunately, Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, and other gun control advocates disagree. They claim that the prevalence of hand guns and the dreaded assault rifles is the fuel, if not the direct cause, of crime, and only when we rid society of guns can we build the utopia of which most liberal dreams. This belief, however, is completely absurd. Because gun control laws clearly violate the Constitution, have a dark history of failure and misuse, strip individuals of their only means of protection, and leave criminals virtually unhindered, gun control legislation will never work, and ought to be repealed.

It has been claimed by gun control advocates, that the Second Amendment allows only for the assembly of a militia. Having been written in a time, these advocates maintain, when citizens were expected to provide their own weapons when serving in the military, the Constitution only allows private ownership for military purposes and no others. In the modern age, when the military supplies each soldier with a weapon, private ownership for military reasons is no longer necessary. Hence, they claim, gun control laws do not violate the Second Amendment, because the Second Amendment is simply outdated.

While gun control advocates will never admit it, gun control is a clear violation of both the spirit and the letter of the Constitution. The Second Amendment guarantees, &quot;[that] the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.&quot; Private ownership of guns is explicitly listed as a right, and rights cannot be legislated! The government cannot pass laws regarding speech, or religion, or assembly. Therefore, the government should not be able to regulate our ownership of fire arms, especially considering the past uses of gun control.

It is common knowledge among historians and political scientists, that the first step in creating a dictatorship is disarming the masses. However, a large portion of the people in this country still believe more gun control is needed, not less, in spite of the fact that every gun control law aimed at crime reduction that has ever passed has been a dismal failure. Many people seem to believe that we can legislate our way to utopia. It is unfortunate that the past thirty years of &quot;great society&quot; social programs and expanding government regulation have conditioned these people to think of the government as their savior. If one looks at the latest ex President, they will find his whole election campaign was based on what he was going to make the government do for us, not what was best for America. Perhaps President Clinton should heed the words of his idol, John Kennedy, who said, &quot;Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.&quot;

Beyond even the Constitutional, social, and historical aspects, gun control simply does not work. It strips honest people of their only real means of protection, while scarcely being an inconvenience to the criminal element in society. The Brady Bill is a perfect example. The Brady Bill mandates that all states impose a seven day waiting period before the purchase of a handgun. This is suppose to allow time for a background check to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and lunatics, and for a &quot;cooling-off period&quot; to prevent crimes of passion. Unfortunately, the Brady Bill would only work if the following three conditions were met: the criminal/nut does not know that he can obtain a handgun on the thriving black market; he is not willing to buy a rifle or shotgun, which are unregulated by Brady, to do his business; and the person who was ready to commit murder on day one of the waiting period will have calmed down by day seven and stay calm for the rest of his life. Taken separately, these conditions are unlikely, at best. Taken together, they are ludicrous.

So what are we going to do about these unjust and, I think, blatantly stupid gun control laws? The only logical thing to do with a law that does more harm than good, is repeal it. Will that magically make everything better? No, but it would be a good place to start. If we repeal the gun control laws, we will be forced to re-examine our role, that is the role of the individual in society. We will need to instill more civic mindedness and maturity in our youth. In short, we will need to assume more responsibility for ourselves, our families, our well being, and our communities.

This new sense of responsibility sounds like too much to hope for. It probably is too much to hope for. Right? Wrong! It's not more than we can hope for, it's the least we can demand, because we're demanding it of ourselves. Many lame-brained liberall tell us repeatedly that we must understand the rage that drives men to violence, we must strive to correct the injustices of society that fuels that rage. We must ignore these idiots. That mentality is called appeasement and it rarely works. If you recall, former President Bush tried appeasing Saddam Hussein before the Gulf War started. Bush kept saying that he was attempting to bring Saddam back into the family of nations, whatever that is. Then President Clinton gave us the same &quot;family of nations&quot; song and dance about Serbia and whomever else was currently on the official &quot;bad-guy&quot; list. But, did it work? Did we appease Saddam out of Kuwait? Or was it our military that liberated Kuwait? Bullies, be it a despotic dictator, or a member of a street gang, respect only force, and will be kept in line by no other means. Deep in their hearts, most people know this is true. This is proved by the dramatic rise in gun sales immediately following the L.A., riots. The June 1, 1992 issue of U.S. News and World Report claimed &quot;Statewide, gun sales for the first half of May were up 62% over the same period a year ago.&quot; Why? Gun sales went up because the people wanted protection, plain and simple. They knew that gun control laws would not stop the armed rioters and looters any more than police could. This is certainly common knowledge to watchers of the gun market.

Most people who favor gun control have good intentions. They feel gun control is a way of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. You would have to be insane to oppose that. But sooner or later, they realize that criminals having guns is not the problem, only a symptom of a problem. The real problem is the criminals themselves, and the defenseless position most victims find themselves in.

While society has the responsibility to deal with criminal offenders, we must remember two of the most important principles that this country is founded on. These principles are freedom, and the right of American citizens to be assumed innocent until proven guilty. We cannot pass laws that restrict Constitutionally granted rights on the grounds that these rights might be abused. The violation of these two principles is, I believe, the central issue in the gun control debate. Gun control assumes that anyone who wants to own a gun is a criminal or is mentally unstable.

In summary, as long as America has her Constitution and the American people have their freedom, gun control is doomed to failure. The voting majority may get duped into false hopes of abolishing crime through legislation and regulation, however, as the regulations begin to weigh down upon our private lives and gnaw away at our freedoms, with no discernable decrease in crime or violence, popular support will dwindle. Gun control advocates may have their day today, however, they have no future.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
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<< Unfortunately for you they'd of had a tougher fight against the Iraqi military than they'd have with you loons. >>



So I'm a loon because my opinion differs from yours? Gee...with that kind of logic why don't we just settle this right now with a good old fashioned my daddy can beat up your daddy argument?
 
Feb 7, 2000
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the only reason people have the right to bare arms is so they can defend themselvs, yet democrats find a way to take this right away, amazing
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
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ulfwald - I don't buy the main points in your argument. Violent crime has been going down all over the country, not just where permits to carry are now allowed. It has more to do with the drop in poverty and age demographics than anything else. I'll even toss in the fact that welfare reform has pushed more people to work which puts them in a much better environment which breeds less crime.

I also do not think that criminals prey on tourists because they're unarmed. Tourists typically have cash, have their families with them (more to threaten), are often disoriented from time changes, and probably do not know how to easily and quickly contact the authorities.

I think that both extremes - gun grabbing liberals and gun crazed conservatives - like to twist and melodramativise statistics and stories to make their point.

I personally believe that the framers of the Constitution meant to protect the private ownership of weapons so that a militia could be formed if needed (came from being a revolutionary government). As such, I do not support outright bans. I do support well regulated gun ownership and trust the Supreme Court to protect citizen's rights should a regulation impinge too much on the right to private ownership of guns.

Tominator - I still fail to see what I was supposed to &quot;get&quot;. What is the point you're trying to make?

Red Dawn - Other than the superfluous attack on Reagan, I actually agree with you <grin>.

Michael
 

Ulfwald

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
May 27, 2000
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Now, I am in favor of background checks, but only if they can be done in a reasonable amount of time.

I am also in favor of responsible gun ownership. that includes teaching your children that guns are to be respected as a weapon that can and will do major damage. I was 4 years old when i learned how to shoot. My grandfathers and my father taught me 2 major rules:

1 You treat a gun as if it is loaded no matter what.
2 When in doubt, see rule #1.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
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ulfwald - nice rules, but it doesn't help me. I have little to now experience with guns (my father owned a shotgun <his father's> and a .22. For as long as I remember, he never kept any ammo in the house and no kid was to touch any gun on the pain of the worst spanking and grounding we could imagine). My daughter has zero experience with guns and she's getting old enough to enjoy visiting friends. I have no trouble with others owning guns, I just have a hard time being against a law that keeps them locked up when they're not in use (hunting, target shooting, carried by an adult, etc.). How am I supposed to educate her about it when I'm exercising my choice to not own a gun?

I still don't buy the spin the article you posted had.

Michael

ps - I'd be a darn weird liberal. I sat and went over the Disney annual report with my daughter today to explain to her that Mickey Mouse is working to pay her way through college. My wife (who is a screaming left Democrat) thinks I'm so far right that I might as well go join one of the &quot;wacko&quot; militias. I still don't buy the arguments you and Tominator are making here.
 

Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,559
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Red Dawn...AH HA! Caught you in another Liberal Gun-Grabbing Lie!

Another History Lesson? OK...

In the late sixties the ACLU and the Kennedy Political Machine went to Federal Court. They won their case.

The courts found that to force Mental Patients to take drugs to control their 'disease' was against the law! To put someone in a Mental Hospital was made much harder as well. Now you need a Doctor, a Judge and a Family Member to get someone with mental problems 'put away.' The legal hoops and paperwork are near impossible to complete! All in the name of Civil Rights!

All Reagan did was cut the funding for emty beds!

The Liberals gave us the so-called Homeless Problem and made incidents such as the recent killing of two Whitehouse guards possible.

How many more incidents do you want to hear? I'll post dozens! How many!:| Come on. I want YOU to give me a number. Gun Laws DO NOT WORK!
 

jeremy806

Senior member
May 10, 2000
647
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For what it is worth, I think that the liberal push for gun control is silly. For all I care, every law abiding citizen can keep a gun in his home. On a second note, I don't want a gun in my home -- but that is just my choice.

jeremy806

 

Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,559
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Red Dawn It's not like you to back off so easily...and that is what 356 cases proving self defense using guns would be.... easy!

In EVERY monthly issue of The American Rifleman or The American Hunter or America's First Freedom there are at least 15 articles taken from the Nation's newspapers that illustrate the EXACT point made my my initial post about how Gun Laws do nothing or worse. I've several YEARS of back issues....are you sure 356 is enough? Need I remind you that no one is making the articles up and that references are given with dates? Would you actually READ the links I post or need I post the complete text?

I am prepared! Are YOU prepared to accept the truth?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,529
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What's the issue here? Do you think, Tom, that the parents really would have prefered not to lock their weapons but did so only because they feared that if one of them had killed that guy they would have been prosecuted. Perhaps their judgement was that the kids were in bigger danger from the guns than what happened. I don't know the story, but it seems that the parents may have agreed that the guns should have been locked. Otherwise he could have left a key for his daughter or just said screw the law.
 

PattySmear

Banned
Feb 4, 2001
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<< Now do you get it? >>




Yeah i get it. You probably have small hands. And small feet. And small...yeah I get it.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
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Tom - You haven't answered me yet as well. Do we hand out guns to every 14 year old that wants one? Would it really habe made a difference if she could have opened the locked guns right when she alledgedly ran to them? Did that madman go for her first, or did one of her siblings die before she would have even had a chance to reach any gun? Was her parents' decision to act responsibly and follow the law wrong? Or should they have been criminals and left them open to anyone in their house who wanted to put their hands on them? Should criminals have guns?

If you really do try and post stories like Red Dawn was goading you into, I'll match you one for one with stories of innocent children and adults dieing by accident. I know there are more than you could ever find to try and prove your point.

I do not deny you your right to own a gun and I respect the fact that you might even be responsible enough to care and use for one properly. I'll be damned if I let them be handed out like candy.

If the NRA really puts together a program to train and certify both gun ownership and the proper training to carry a gun, I'd be all for it. I trust the military because they are trained and supervised. All men make mistakes, and I accept that as well. As we all make mistakes and mistakes with guns usually kill and only cripple if you are &quot;lucky&quot;, I am willing to accept restrictions placed on gun ownership. Heck, cars kill many more people than guns, and we have rules about age limits before driving, a billion laws on what you can do behind the wheel, and particular attention paid to driving while drunk. Why shouldn't gun ownership be the same?

Michael
 

JeremyJoe

Senior member
Dec 8, 2000
660
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i think kids and adults need to be taught the responsablitiy of guns...like how to use them and they are not for killing people like on the cops sshow but for protections or sport
 

Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,559
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Michael
At least you are thinking. The NRA spends over 3 million dollars a year teaching Gun Safety. We have over 22,000 gun laws. How many are enough? Watch California. If the populace sheeps over and registers all their guns they will eventually be confiscated. Diane Feinstien has said as much.

Although anyone with a gun in the home should lock it up, and I can agree that no every gun owner is responsible, the Government has no business telling me to do so! The NRA has lobbied hard for laws holding adults responsoble for careless storage and misuse.

The Liberal Media often portrays the NRA as a hardlined monster that doesn't have a soul when the truth is quite the opposite. The NRA puts their money where their mouth is.



<< Do we hand out guns to every 14 year old that wants one? >>

No one has ever proposed we do, but a law was passed and in part caused death in this case.



Several in the Media have done research as to what scares career criminals the most...it's not jail or the justice system. It's not the Cops....It's an ARMED [With a GUN!] Homeowner! We're talking breakins and robbery here.

We cannot answer some of your questions because we cannot imagine what happened and what was going through the minds of the victims. However, the little girl DID go to the locked gun cabinet! And DID ask the neighbor to stop the killer. And she KNEW that a GUN was the way and she was right! As most people would, her parents were trying to abide by the law. I'll bet they don't any longer:(

More on this Story
 

kami

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
17,627
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Some of you want to change laws because of one incident? How many incidents like this happen where young children couldn't access guns, compared to little children accidentally shooting people or themselves?
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
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Tominator - They also have done research and the research has shown that the majority of people favour strong controls over the ownership and use of guns. Even people who use guns &quot;fear&quot; them, even if that fear is in the form of respect for the consequences of improper use. I'm mouch more worried about people who don't &quot;fear&quot; guns than people who do.

I have long been a believer that proper enforcement of existing gun laws would be just as effective as running out and passing some new law because Johnny did something wrong with a gun. I grew up in Canada which, contrary to public opinion, has a fair amount of guns and only recently has started getting very tough on ownership and registration. The violent use of guns in Canada has also been far below (per capita) that of the US. I also know quite a few Swiss who were used to having ready access to assult rifles and the large number of guns hasn't caused mass killings and chaos in their country. So I'm not against guns and gun ownership in general, even if my wife and I have made a personal choice not to have any in our house.

If I'm thinking, I'm wondering if you are? Again, I go back to my question about what was the point of you posting the story? It did zero to convince me that the law requiring guns to be locked away from children was wrong.

Would it really have made a difference if the neighbour had taken his gun and gove over to confront the murderer? Would it have saved any more lives? Somehow I think that the two children that died were already dead at that point. Wasn't the right response to call the police and then stand ready to protect your home and family in case they did not get there quick enough. Note that your hoped for outcome, that the killer be shot and killed, did happen.

Do you truly stand against a law that helps reinforce the responsibility that even the NRA likes to emphasize? Do you really think that guns shouldn't be locked and secured when not being used? If your goal was to try and bait &quot;gun grabbers&quot;, then I'm sorry I interupted you. If your goal was to show that gun laws are too restrictive, the you failed with me. You did much more to cause the uneasy sensation that goes up and down my spine when I encounter a fanatic than to engage my attention to your point. It is, for what it is worth, the same reaction I get when rabid anti-gun crusaders start frothing at the mouth.

I tend to ignore politicians when they make wild claims like registering guns so they can take them away. They're just pandering to what the polls tell them they should say and I note that more people agree with taking guns away than agree with your stance. You just have the Constitution on your side.

Michael
 

Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,559
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Michael


<< They also have done research and the research has shown that the majority of people favour strong controls over the ownership and use of guns >>



That statement is patently false. Any poll can be swayed a certain way to affect the outcome. You use the word 'Strong' and I'll ask for a resource that is halfway credible. In fact every poll on Gun Laws I've ever heard of report that the vast majority of Americans support enforcement rather than new legislation.

It is also true that the more people DO NOT agree that taking away guns is the answer! Your statements also prove the long standing belief that the Media is largely anti-gun. Your statements make it all to clear that they are your source of information. I might appear that I'm the far right on the subject, but since the Media will NEVER present all the information, I feel I have most of the facts in my favor. Now that NRA membership is getting very close to 4.5 million members, up almost a million since Clinton took office, it seems more and more Americans are getting informed. CNN, ABC, NBC and CBS all are loosing market share while FOX and others are growing in leaps and bounds.

BTW, I get an uneasy sensation when Government passes laws that further infringe on our freedoms and when the those propose those laws are not honest about their agenda or their motives.

Red Dawn
You know as well as I do where our argument is headed...it always does.:D No matter my source you will dismiss it as crapola. The story I posted is up for the reading on a huge number of sites. You know how to use a search engine...use it!
 

stonythug

Banned
Nov 1, 2000
460
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What about the two kids in the house who weren't &quot;properly educated&quot;. It's ok to leave the gun unlocked and accessible to the 14 year old even though it would put the younger ones at risk of finding the gun and playing with it?
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
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Face it: no matter what we do, it won't help.

If we outlaw or restrict the posession of guns, people will still have (illegal) guns, and those people will most likely be the 'bad guys'.
On the other side, if we keep guns as legal as they're now the 'bad guys' will have guns, but also 'normal' citizens will carry guns, which poses a threat to their children who can wound/kill themselves and others.

You shouldn't look at guns as the most important factor in this case, but instead you should look at the main-threat to Human: namely Humans. The Ultimate example of the well known Uncertainty Principle.

If we insist on outlawing/regulating any things which are the cause of many murder/accidents each year, then we should outlaw cars instead of guns.