Now constant starting problem on '92 Mercury Cougar

[kalrith]

Update 7/18/08: Three new symptoms have developed, and all of them started about 3-4 weeks ago.

• 1) There's a strong gas smell in the car. It seems worst first thing in the morning after sitting for 14 hours.
  2) The fuel pump sounds really weak when I turn the key in the ignition.
  3) It gives me problems every time I start it. It requires turning it over 2-3 times for 5 seconds each time (or once for 10-15 seconds straight) in order to start it.

I did finally change the fuel filter (6 days ago), but that didn't help a bit. I also tried LTC8K6's idea and turned the key to the on position 4 times this morning before trying to start it. It still took about 10 seconds of turning over the engine for it to start.

Does anyone have any ideas in light of these new symptoms? Is there a way to test certain parts, or should I just get it checked out by a shop?

Thanks!

Update 6/16/08: The car has been working great the past few months as long as I don't let it go below half a tank of gas. However, this morning it wouldn't start even though it has 3/4 of a tank. I'd turn the key, and the engine would shake sometimes as if it were going to start but wouldn't. I finally got it started after 10 minutes of trying to start it and pumping the gas pedal. It has a digital dashboard and displays instant mpg. After trying to start it for a few minutes, it started beeping and displayed FFS (or FF5) instead of 0 mpg like normal. I googled it and could only find this message. I haven't done anything to the car besides changing the oil and air filter yesterday. It also started fine yesterday.

Update 2/25/08: Car wouldn't start this morning for the 3rd time in the past month. I think the last two times it wouldn't start was on a (possibly wet) morning with only a couple of gallons of gas in the tank. The check-engine light is throwing code 332 "EGR opening not detected". I looked into my records, and it threw this same code a year or two ago.

Yesterday morning I went to start my car, and it wouldn't start. It would turn over and kept turning over but never showed any signs of starting. Pressing on the gas made no difference whatsoever. I tried to start it last night just 10 hours later, and it started up just fine. I drove it to work today, and it ran great like always.

I plan to take a look at the spark plugs and wires, but I'm not sure of what else to look for. My check-engine light isn't on, so I can't get that checked. I just don't want it to decide not to start when I'm not at home.

In case it matters, it had 64,000 miles on it when I bought it and has ~111,000 miles now. I haven't replaced anything except tires, oil, oil filter, air filter, and starter.

Thanks!

 

[nakedfrog]

You might consider the fuel filter. Odds are it will only cost a few bucks, and if you're not aware of it ever having been changed, now's a good a time as any.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Without seeing the car myself, the first thing that comes to mind is the fuel pump relay. That, or the EEC relay.

To see if the fuel pump is running, you just turn the key to "run". Don't start it, just turn it to the run position. As soon as you do that, you should hear the buzz of the fuel pump for a few seconds, then it'll cut off if you don't start it. Try it while the car is working okay so you'll know what to listen for.

Then if it won't start again, do it and see if you hear that buzzing....if not, it's likely the relay. You can also actually hear the EEC and fuel pump relays clicking when you turn the key on. Basically, when you turn the key on, the EEC relay energizes the fuel pump relay for a few seconds...so if you leave it on, you'll hear the fuel pump relay click back off.

There is also a fuel cutoff switch, called the inertia switch, that cuts the pump off in case of an accident. Not as likely, but still possible. Should be in the trunk on probably the left side.

Also could be an ignition problem. Is this a 3.8 engine? You'll need to pull the coil wire to check for spark. (or a coil wire if it has a coil pack, I can't remember at the moment)

Lots of things COULD be the problem on this old a car, but you're really going to have to reproduce the problem to find it.

 

[exdeath]

Check for spark and fuel pressure and eliminate one and dig deeper into the other one.

On the fuel side it could be a bad pump, relay, regulator, etc. Taking a pressure measurement (valve stem looking thing on the fuel rail where you can attach a $10 fuel pressure gauge) with the key on will let you know if there problem, then you have to narrow it down. Fuel filter too is important, but seldom causes a sudden and total loss of fuel on an engine that was previously running properly.

On the spark side it could be dead ignition module, distributor component, coil, even just a loose connection on the harness. You can check one cylinder by pulling the plug wire out from the spark plug and sticking a screwdriver the end of the wire. Hold it by the handle so that the metal of the screw driver is close, but not touching, any metal part of the car. You will be able to see/hear spark while someone else cranks the car. Generally if one cylinder fires, you don't need to check the test. It's enough to rule out ignition since it's unlikely 1 or 2 dead cylinders would stop the car from starting or at least making a noticeable effort to start. What you describe is an all or nothing problem.

Also things like cam and crank position signaled electronic ignition, the sensors could be erratic, but something like would most likely trip the 'check engine' light with a sensor out of range or crank position error. Again, loose connections to any of these things would also cause instant, and intermittent, problems.

Was there any erratic or odd behavior that lead up to it or was it sudden?

 

[kalrith]

Thanks for all the helpful comments! I turned the key on and did hear the fuel pump buzz. I know what to listen for the next time it won't start.

The car has had a problem for about a year that might be related. When I accelerate from a stand still, the engine lags for about 2-3 seconds. The RPM drop, and the nose dips closer to the ground. Once the car actually begins to go, it jumps a bunch, which I assume is because the nose has dipped. This seems to happen only when the engine is cold and is worse the more I step on the gas. If I baby the gas a bunch, it doesn't happen at all. It happens every single day on my early-morning drive to work. It seems to be worse the colder it is outside.

Today I went to accelerate from a dead stop at a stop sign, and the engine died for the first time ever. It would start right back up but then die again. I had to give it some gas immediately in order for it to keep running. That's why I think the issue might be related to my starting problem a few days ago.

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on my problems!

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Without seeing the car myself, the first thing that comes to mind is the fuel pump relay. That, or the EEC relay.

To see if the fuel pump is running, you just turn the key to "run". Don't start it, just turn it to the run position. As soon as you do that, you should hear the buzz of the fuel pump for a few seconds, then it'll cut off if you don't start it. Try it while the car is working okay so you'll know what to listen for.

Then if it won't start again, do it and see if you hear that buzzing....if not, it's likely the relay. You can also actually hear the EEC and fuel pump relays clicking when you turn the key on. Basically, when you turn the key on, the EEC relay energizes the fuel pump relay for a few seconds...so if you leave it on, you'll hear the fuel pump relay click back off.

There is also a fuel cutoff switch, called the inertia switch, that cuts the pump off in case of an accident. Not as likely, but still possible. Should be in the trunk on probably the left side.

Also could be an ignition problem. Is this a 3.8 engine? You'll need to pull the coil wire to check for spark. (or a coil wire if it has a coil pack, I can't remember at the moment)

Lots of things COULD be the problem on this old a car, but you're really going to have to reproduce the problem to find it.

Fuel pumps don't usually cut in and out though and that kind of problem would probably rear its ugly head on the road moreso than after being parked for a while. It either works or it doesn't.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: kalrith
Thanks for all the helpful comments! I turned the key on and did hear the fuel pump buzz. I know what to listen for the next time it won't start.

The car has had a problem for about a year that might be related. When I accelerate from a stand still, the engine lags for about 2-3 seconds. The RPM drop, and the nose dips closer to the ground. Once the car actually begins to go, it jumps a bunch, which I assume is because the nose has dipped. This seems to happen only when the engine is cold and is worse the more I step on the gas. If I baby the gas a bunch, it doesn't happen at all. It happens every single day on my early-morning drive to work. It seems to be worse the colder it is outside.

Today I went to accelerate from a dead stop at a stop sign, and the engine died for the first time ever. It would start right back up but then die again. I had to give it some gas immediately in order for it to keep running. That's why I think the issue might be related to my starting problem a few days ago.

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on my problems!

That makes it sound like the fuel filter to me.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Without seeing the car myself, the first thing that comes to mind is the fuel pump relay. That, or the EEC relay.

To see if the fuel pump is running, you just turn the key to "run". Don't start it, just turn it to the run position. As soon as you do that, you should hear the buzz of the fuel pump for a few seconds, then it'll cut off if you don't start it. Try it while the car is working okay so you'll know what to listen for.

Then if it won't start again, do it and see if you hear that buzzing....if not, it's likely the relay. You can also actually hear the EEC and fuel pump relays clicking when you turn the key on. Basically, when you turn the key on, the EEC relay energizes the fuel pump relay for a few seconds...so if you leave it on, you'll hear the fuel pump relay click back off.

There is also a fuel cutoff switch, called the inertia switch, that cuts the pump off in case of an accident. Not as likely, but still possible. Should be in the trunk on probably the left side.

Also could be an ignition problem. Is this a 3.8 engine? You'll need to pull the coil wire to check for spark. (or a coil wire if it has a coil pack, I can't remember at the moment)

Lots of things COULD be the problem on this old a car, but you're really going to have to reproduce the problem to find it.

Fuel pumps don't usually cut in and out though and that kind of problem would probably rear its ugly head on the road moreso than after being parked for a while. It either works or it doesn't.

Not really. Electric fuel pumps are notorious for dying on the road, then working again after the car sits. They've also been commonly known to have been working fine, then after the car sits they won't work...and a trick for that is to beat the bottom of the fuel tank (asuming it's an in-tank pump..safe assumption these days) to get it running again. I've personally driven cars that had a stalling problem with a fuel pressure gauge hooked up and taped to the windshield....drive it awhile and suddenly the fuel pressure dies and the car stalls. Let it sit awhile and it works again. Lots of ways for a fuel pump to fail.

Being a Ford, and based on his initial description, the fuel pump or EEC relay was my first guess.

Your newest info definitely COULD be related. You really need to have a good mechanic drive it first thing in the morning with some test equipment hooked up and see what he thinks.

As Iamwiz stated, the fuel filter isn't a bad place to start as a guess. It's cheap and probably needs replacing, anyway.

 

[kalrith]

There has only been one more time when the car wouldn't start at all; however, it's been starting more roughly once or twice a week for the past month, and I've had to give it gas to get it to start. I did hear the fuel pump buzz when the car wouldn't start.

The check-engine light was on, so I got it checked at AutoZone. It came back with code 332 "EGR opening not detected". I looked into my records, and it threw this same code a year or two ago. What do you guys think?

I did buy a fuel filter, but I haven't gotten around to replacing it yet.

 

[kalrith]

Updated the op.

 

[kalrith]

Any thoughts on the update?

 

[radioouman]

Fuel pump/filter is my guess.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'd try the fuel filter then regulator or pump.

I believe a simple test of the regulator and pump is to wait until it won't start and then turn the key on and off a few times in a row, say three, pausing at on, and then on the last one go all the way and see if it starts.

The system is supposed to prime itself when you first turn the key. By turning the key a few times in a row, you give the system a few tries to build fuel pressure.

I believe FFS is displayed when it tries to do the instant fuel economy calculation, but there is no fuel flow.

 

[kalrith]

Another update. My main concern is the very strong gas smell in the car because of the fumes and the possibility of the probably-leaking fuel getting ignited.. It's so strong that I have to always drive with my windows down, and if I leave something in the car overnight, it'll smell like gas for days.

 

[sjwaste]

We had a 91 cougar. Does it start if you press down the gas a little bit, hold it there, and then turn the key?

 

[kalrith]

I haven't tried that for the new problem since it'll always start after turning it over a few times. However, the problem I have every few months when it doesn't want to start at all seems to be resolved by trying to start it for 15 minutes or so with stepping on the gas a lot. The fuel filter might have been the cause of that problem, but since I only have the problem every 2-3 months, I won't know for a while.

 

[iamwiz82]

before starting pop the hood and see if there is a strong odor of gas in the engine bay. That would tell you if there was a leak there. If not, pull the interior lining around the gas cap to see if smell is strong there.

Notice any puddles of gas anywhere?

 

[kalrith]

Thanks for the tips. I'll have to check that tomorrow morning when the smell will be strongest. I haven't noticed any puddles of gas at all. I have a gravel driveway, so it wouldn't be as noticeable as on cement; however, I park in the same spot every day, so I'm sure I would've noticed it by now if the gas were actually making it to the ground. I'll be sure to take a really good look at my parking spot tonight though.

 

[iamwiz82]

Lay some cardboard down from gas tank to engine.

 

[radioouman]

Do you access the fuel pump from under the rear seat on the Cougar? If so, you might have a leak that is easy to access.

If the gas smell is coming from under the hood (and therefore being sucked in through your ventilation system) then you really don't want to drive that car. If it is dripping from underneath, you'll be OK as long as it doesn't drip near the exhaust.

 

[BUTCH1]

I would look at the injector o-rings and fuel line fittings and see what turns up. Car is
old enough to have some rubber problems at this point..

 

[LTC8K6]

I would also check out the evaporative canister system if it has one regarding the gasoline smell.

It may be flooding if it's a regulator problem and you smell fuel.

Next time it won't start, try holding the pedal to the floor to see if it starts.

You really need to measure the fuel pressure, though.

 

[kalrith]

I cannot smell gas under the hood or in the trunk but only inside the cabin. I tried starting it with my foot partially on the gas and another time with it floored, and it made no difference whatsoever. I'm going to try some of the other things mentioned. I have to get an inspection on it this week, so maybe they'll find something then.

Edit: It's going to really suck driving with no AC today since the high's 94 degrees. I haven't bothered recharging the AC since the fuel smell would gag me with the windows rolled up.

 

[iamwiz82]

Apparently there was a recall for the 1992 Cougar regarding a fuel line that rubs and eventually starts to leak. Recall #: 97V159000

 

[slag]

sounds like a fuel pressure regulator problem to me.