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'nother question for Christians
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RapidSnail
Diamond Member
Among other things, this is exactly why Christians don't like to be associated with Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or any other sect that claim to be Christians but have significantly different theological beliefs.
AreaCode707
Lifer
Most non-Catholic Christians agree with you. Purgatory is a Catholic doctrine, which is what I think doze was originally trying to say (I don't think he was suggesting that different sects of Christianity go to different places in heaven.)
maddogchen
Diamond Member
you're dead, so next thing you know you're at judgement day and you get judged and go either to heaven or hell. A million years coulda pasted between the time of your death and judgement day, but you won't know because....well you were dead. Thats what they taught me at Catholic school. Disclaimer: i'm not Christian.
maddogchen
Diamond Member
there is NO purgatory anymore. Some pope repealed the idea of it some time ago....yeah i don't know how he did it. it just magically disappeared, POOF, when he said it. or maybe there was none in the first place and they "found" proof.
Nope I just stated the Catholic belief, other Christians have a different beliefs but they all go to the same heaven. Purgatory is a waiting place where one is purified of their sins before entering heaven.
Like HotChic said purgatory is a Catholic belief, but in the end it is the same heaven.
Here is a concise a summary as I can make it (references available upon request):
When you die, you are "asleep" according to scriptures. Like very deep sleep, you are not aware of time passing or are conscious of anything.When you "awake", you face judgement if you are not saved, and it is as if no time has passed at all for you (even if hundreds of years have indeed passed). Both the saved and the unsaved will live forever and have new physical bodies, but those who are unsaved will be cast out into outer darkness (also called the lake of fire, or hell) outside of the kingdom for all eternity, and those who are saved will be inside the kingdom of the new heavens and new earth with God for all eternity.
Those believers who are alive just before the time of tribulation will be "raptured", or spared the judgements that is poured out on the earth at that time.
I am not 100% sure of this, but it's what I can recall from the Word and my limited studying of this subject.
When you die, you are "asleep" according to scriptures. Like very deep sleep, you are not aware of time passing or are conscious of anything.When you "awake", you face judgement if you are not saved, and it is as if no time has passed at all for you (even if hundreds of years have indeed passed). Both the saved and the unsaved will live forever and have new physical bodies, but those who are unsaved will be cast out into outer darkness (also called the lake of fire, or hell) outside of the kingdom for all eternity, and those who are saved will be inside the kingdom of the new heavens and new earth with God for all eternity.
Those believers who are alive just before the time of tribulation will be "raptured", or spared the judgements that is poured out on the earth at that time.
I am not 100% sure of this, but it's what I can recall from the Word and my limited studying of this subject.
TehMac
Diamond Member
Obviously, the only way to find out is die, but you have to understand that Jesus and God work in parallels of time different from ours, and that no scientific or physical piece of evidence can explain what happens.
But basically, heres something else: When Jesus died, all the saints left their graves and ascended into heaven, because before Jesus died, the sin of being human was no solved, and they were in their graves.
Kinda scary, but keep in mind, Jesus works in different time parallels ( they are afterall, in Christian and Judea belief, creators of the universe) and thus he died a long time before anyone else was created, but in our frame, he didn't. Its hard to comprehend, but I wouldn't worry about it. Basically, just live. Live, believe, and have no worries. And off you go.
But basically, heres something else: When Jesus died, all the saints left their graves and ascended into heaven, because before Jesus died, the sin of being human was no solved, and they were in their graves.
Kinda scary, but keep in mind, Jesus works in different time parallels ( they are afterall, in Christian and Judea belief, creators of the universe) and thus he died a long time before anyone else was created, but in our frame, he didn't. Its hard to comprehend, but I wouldn't worry about it. Basically, just live. Live, believe, and have no worries. And off you go.
Sorry for the really late reply. I intended to reply earlier, but midterms and other things got in the way (I should have pushed some of those things aside, actually 😱). I tried to respond below as fully as I could, but I am human, so it's entirely possible (and likely) that I didn't answer as clearly as possible, or I left something out, so please do feel free to ask a question or respond.
We who are Christians believe in the absolute infallibility of the Bible, and believe that it was written by God through man (inspired), and is preserved by Him, and all of scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. Comparing scripture to scripture is important to get a full and clear view of what God's Word says about a subject, so I will try to put as many references concerning death, the second death, and eternal life and explain them to the best of my understanding.
Regarding being ?asleep?:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-14
?But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
You see here that the word ?sleep? (Greek: ?koimao?) is being used here as a euphemism or metaphor for death. You see death being similarly described as sleep (Hebrew: "shakab" in the Old Testament when it speaks of David's death:
?So David rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David. ? -1 Kings 2:10
Elsewhere in the New Testament it is used, like when Stephen was stoned:
?Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, ?Lord, do not charge them with this sin.? And when he had said this, he fell asleep.? - Acts 7:60
When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead:
?These things He said, and after that He said to them, ?Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.?
Then His disciples said, ?Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.? However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep? - John 11:11-13
When Jesus raised the little girl from the dead:
?Then He came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and saw a tumult and those who wept and wailed loudly. When He came in, He said to them, ?Why make this commotion and weep? The child is not dead, but sleeping.?
And they ridiculed Him. But when He had put them all outside, He took the father and the mother of the child, and those who were with Him, and entered where the child was lying. Then He took the child by the hand, and said to her, ?Talitha, cumi,? which is translated, ?Little girl, I say to you, arise.? Immediately the girl arose and walked, for she was twelve years of age. And they were overcome with great amazement. But He commanded them strictly that no one should know it, and said that something should be given her to eat.? -Mark 5:38-43
So you have to ask yourself, why is death (physical death) described as sleep in the Bible? The obvious and most logical answer is that physical death is indeed like sleep. When you sleep, you aren't aware of your surrounding or the passage of time, and when you wake up, you wake up to a new day, rejuvenated (if it was good/deep/long sleep, and I'm sure death is really deep) from the weariness of the previous day. I don't recall the word ?sleep? being used in the Bible for those who died except for those who died as saved believers and children, which I think points to the fact that death isn't a pleasant experience for the unrepentant person because it leads to judgment upon (for lack of a better term) ?awakening?:
?And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.? - Hebrews 9:27-28
For those who are saved by the grace of God, though, the sleep of death leads to the eternal kingdom of God, which will be glorious and perfect in every possible way:
?For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.? - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (continued from the top of the page)
?Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, ?Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.?? - Revelation 21:1-4
That's just a small portion of the description of eternal kingdom of God that is to come; you can read more in Revelation chapters 21 and 22 The physical description that John gives of the city of New Jerusalem is metaphorical in that, because of the constraints of language and the human imagination, what he is speaking of is actually greater than the words or images he supplies, and each image represents a different aspect of God's kingdom. Just like a shadow gives you an idea of the shape of what is casting the shadow, but is nothing compared to the actual thing itself, so does John's description help us understand how amazing God's kingdom will be, even though in actuality it is far, far greater.
As for those who are not saved upon physical death, they will be judged and face eternal condemnation for sin:
?Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.? -Revelation 20:11-15
Jesus also speaks about hell in the gospels as being ?outer darkness? reserved for those who reject Him and His gift of salvation:
?And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: ?The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ?Tell those who are invited, ?See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.??
But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then he said to his servants, ?The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.? So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, ?Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?? And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ?Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.? ?For many are called, but few are chosen.? ? - Matthew 22:1-14
Jesus describes hell in the same way (outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth) in the parable of the talents, as being shut out of the wedding reception in the parable of the wise and foolish bridesmaids, as fire in the parable of the tares, and in other portions of scripture. Like the description of heaven, these illustrations that are given to show how horrible hell will be (a dark place full of great suffering and separation from God). God does not want anyone to go to hell, but He does judge those who are unwilling to repent. You can't save yourself from sin, and if you are unwilling to receive the gift of salvation that cost the life of God's only begotten son, Jesus, than you will go to hell; it's not what I say that matters, but what God says. He has given you the opportunity to turn from your sin and pride and come to Him, but if you slap away the hand that the loving God has extended and wish to live apart from God, then you will get your wish, and live apart from Him outside the kingdom. God will not force people to worship Him who do not wish to worship Him, but don't expect to be rewarded for disobedience. God shows all sinners grace by allowing us to live even a second on this earth, and by providing salvation for you and I (even though I know I did nothing, could do nothing to deserve it), but that grace and patience extends only until death. God is loving, but He is also just, and He will reward those who humbled themselves and received salvation, and punish those who chose to pridefully live in unrepentant sin. No one is ?good enough? of his or her own deeds to get into heaven, and such is the pride and foolishness of man; ?it is by grace that we are saved, and not of ourselves, lest any man should boast?.
Everyone will live forever, but not everyone will live forever in the presence of God and His kingdom.
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