North Korea Nuclear Test

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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,868
6,397
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Being a Ninja Assassin, this is why Hillary should be the next President. She'll be in and out so quick she'll be back in time to testify at the Republican's Clinton Witchunt 2.0.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
30,294
31,347
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North Korea keeps testing ICBM's and has again done a new nuclear test. My question is are we going to wait till this maniac blows some location up with a Nuclear Bomb and kill Millions of people or are we going to do something about it? I think Obama and South Korea are too Chicken to take any action. We could at least blow up their test facilities and set them back a few years.

Of course we could also do nothing and wait till he has a Nuclear fall out contamination cloud floating over a city near you.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/05/asia/north-korea-yongbyon-nuclear-complex-activity/index.html

So what is your plan to do something about it Mr. Internet Tough Guy?
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
Thought I'd drop this by.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37331852

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-nuclear-china-idUSKCN11H05F

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-nuclear-sanctions-idUSKCN11H05D

9ntUT7M.gif
 
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MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Look on a map and see for yourself how close Seoul, with 25 million people in its Metropolitan area, is to NK and you will see that that pudgy toddler can easily hurt millions of people besides himself.

korea-map.gif
There's the problem. NK doesn't even need nukes to level Seoul. It is tempting that we should "do something" about NK's nukes, but the reality is that SK will get leveled. China, not wanting a western-aligned state on the other side of the Yalu River, will support NK just like they did the last time. The only winning move here is not to play.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,626
13,320
136
There's the problem. NK doesn't even need nukes to level Seoul. It is tempting that we should "do something" about NK's nukes, but the reality is that SK will get leveled. China, not wanting a western-aligned state on the other side of the Yalu River, will support NK just like they did the last time. The only winning move here is not to play.

Doesn't NK have something like several thousand artillery batteries pointed at Seoul?
 

SOFTengCOMPelec

Platinum Member
May 9, 2013
2,417
75
91
Doesn't NK have something like several thousand artillery batteries pointed at Seoul?

Seoul has underground protection shelters for up to 20,000,000 people. So much of the population will be able to protect themselves, soon after the start of fighting.

There is a significant DMZ (Korean Demilitarized Zone), which mean that the vast bulk of the artillery won't have the range to reach Seoul, because of the extra distance the DMZ adds, between Seoul and North Korea. Some of the artillery (with the long range), would have to be moved into position. North Korea has limited transport means to do this, and it will take time.
South Korea has immense/modern capabilities, to rapidly fight back against North Korea, including extensive/comprehensive counter-artillery systems.

Being practical, North Korea would be able to kill lots of people in Seoul, during the opening sequences of the war/battles. Probably (total guess on my part) 100 to 10,000 people, unfortunately. But as people move into the underground protection shelters, and south Korea fights back, and blows up the attacking artillery, the survival rate in Seoul, should rapidly improve.

After a few hours or days after the battles/war breaks out, North Korea would rapidly lose a lot/most of its capabilities to hit Seoul. While most of the population, are safely waiting in the underground protection shelters.

Source:
https://skeptoid.com/blog/2013/03/11/why-north-korea-cant-flatten-seoul/
 
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itsmydamnation

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2011
3,138
4,007
136
this seems like a pretty poor analysis, ( i have read just about every link from your link). So much of it is just speculation.

1st point . Seoul is in a vally the NK artillery is in a very elevated position ( the main evaluation http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-special-reports/mind-the-gap-between-rhetoric-and-reality/ doesn't performs any range calculations have no scale on their maps either......the only listed range is MLRS of 35km, which MLRS?)
2nd point. NK artillery is fortified in mountains, they would need to be a very large number of sorties to take them all out. What does the US have near by that can loiter for long periods of time?
3rd point. NK have way more then "conventional Artillery", Phosphorus nerve agents . chem etc weapons
4th point, The assumption that the north would try and protect its boarder with artillery, look at my countries defense plan ( Australia).
5th point, The last time we saw the NK mobile artillery in action in the iran-iraq war it was the longest range artillery piece in the world do we assume they haven't increased capability in over 30 years?
6th point , they assume NK will move its artillery cuz invasion

the links that you link links to explicitly remove form their analysis non conventional attacks.
There are other possible ways to turn Seoul into a “Sea of Fire” as North Korea is believed to also have nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, several hundred missiles and around 200,000 “special forces”.[1] Those cases are important but we will only briefly touch on them.

Nuclear is unlikely any time soon as its along way from bomb in the ground to weaponizing it on a missile or artillery piece but they have plenty of other options, only a few assumption have to be wrong for the NK can't hurt Seoul she'll be right mate to go horribly wrong.
 

SOFTengCOMPelec

Platinum Member
May 9, 2013
2,417
75
91
this seems like a pretty poor analysis, ( i have read just about every link from your link). So much of it is just speculation.

1st point . Seoul is in a vally the NK artillery is in a very elevated position ( the main evaluation http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-special-reports/mind-the-gap-between-rhetoric-and-reality/ doesn't performs any range calculations have no scale on their maps either......the only listed range is MLRS of 35km, which MLRS?)
2nd point. NK artillery is fortified in mountains, they would need to be a very large number of sorties to take them all out. What does the US have near by that can loiter for long periods of time?
3rd point. NK have way more then "conventional Artillery", Phosphorus nerve agents . chem etc weapons
4th point, The assumption that the north would try and protect its boarder with artillery, look at my countries defense plan ( Australia).
5th point, The last time we saw the NK mobile artillery in action in the iran-iraq war it was the longest range artillery piece in the world do we assume they haven't increased capability in over 30 years?
6th point , they assume NK will move its artillery cuz invasion

the links that you link links to explicitly remove form their analysis non conventional attacks.


Nuclear is unlikely any time soon as its along way from bomb in the ground to weaponizing it on a missile or artillery piece but they have plenty of other options, only a few assumption have to be wrong for the NK can't hurt Seoul she'll be right mate to go horribly wrong.

I basically agree with you. There are many potential errors/misassumptions in the link I posted. Some of which could lead to a much higher casualty rate than originally hoped for.
But I would hope that the gist of it turns out to be correct and the vast bulk of the population of Seoul, South Korea and their armies can protect themselves, in a timely manner. Having underground protection facilities, is a good thing, in circumstances like that.

Although I agree that they left out, possible other weapons of mass destruction, such as chemical and nuclear. I agree with them for doing that, since it is mostly not known (publicly), what such capabilities are, that North Korea really has, and which could be used against South Korea.
Given that South Korea has modern weapon systems, such as advanced military jets, the USA on its side and North Korea is relatively poor (one of the poorest countries in the world), has relatively poor technology and may be, being badly run by a leader/people who would normally be found in mental asylums. (I'm not 100% sure of this, but judging by appearances).
I.e. It could well be a lot more bluff, than real capability, when North Korea makes such bold claims. E.g. Hydrogen Bombs.

If they have got now, or sooner or later, have got 10 or more, somewhat powerful nuclear bombs, which they find a method of delivering to South Korea (or elsewhere). We could easily see millions of people, being adversely affected.

I guess the $64,000,000 question, in that case would be, is the North Korean Leader, as mad as the press seems to be making out, and he sounds, from the way he acts, and what he says ?
If yes, then we could see some kind of disaster, sooner or later.

The other $64,000,000 question is,
How will China react to the unfolding situation ?
If China insists on defending a crazy/bad North Korea, that has just done terrible things, how will the US and the rest of the world react ?

Unlike North Korea, who ultimately have very limited real military power. An angry China, is not something to be ignored. Russia could also potentially join in, if things could go bad, in that way. Maybe other countries as well, e.g. Turkey.

So we could end up with another possible World War 3 situation.
 
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Artorias

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2014
2,307
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I'm generally surprised a coup has not taken place at any point in the last 50 years. I think that says a lot about the problem in that Kim isn't the only issue there, you've got an entire government and top army commanders that really have a strangle hold. The civilians could never rise up, you can basically compare them to malnourished Africans that's how bad a situation they got, and the army soldiers who you would think are fed better don't have ability to overthrow their government.

The country is really fucked up, at some point you actually start to believe they're all brainwashed.

Realistically a coup is what's needed to solve this issue, you need someone in there to take control of the army and open the country up to the world and receive aid. At some point you've got to think someone there doesn't want their country to continue the way its going, its the best solution.
 

SOFTengCOMPelec

Platinum Member
May 9, 2013
2,417
75
91

I think sooner or later, the regime is expected to collapse (or at least that is what is hoped for). The rest of the world is sort of playing a waiting game, as moving in and attacking North Korea, would just result in a huge cost and tragic loss of human life, with little actual gain to the world or winning countries.

But if they get too annoying, maybe it is possible that China could intervene or even attack them. Since China would probably lose out in many ways (e.g. a huge refugee crisis on their door-step), if other countries are forced to do something about North Korea.

Also alternative to war techniques, such as a huge leaflet dropping and other propaganda techniques could be used against North Korea, by South Korea and/or the US.

Would any of the nearby countries, such as China/South Korea/Japan etc, allow themselves to send in specialist troop forces, to take out the leadership ?

I vaguely remember the US has rules against themselves, doing things like that.

But anyway, taking out the leadership like that, could spark a much bigger war, and you don't know if an even worse government/dictatorship, could take over the power vacuum.
 
Dec 10, 2005
29,629
15,193
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I'm generally surprised a coup has not taken place at any point in the last 50 years. I think that says a lot about the problem in that Kim isn't the only issue there, you've got an entire government and top army commanders that really have a strangle hold. The civilians could never rise up, you can basically compare them to malnourished Africans that's how bad a situation they got, and the army soldiers who you would think are fed better don't have ability to overthrow their government.

The country is really fucked up, at some point you actually start to believe they're all brainwashed.

Realistically a coup is what's needed to solve this issue, you need someone in there to take control of the army and open the country up to the world and receive aid. At some point you've got to think someone there doesn't want their country to continue the way its going, its the best solution.
There hasn't been a coup likely because as irrational as NK appears, they are acting in their own rational self-interest in perpetuating their government.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/11/w...clear-missile-programs-rational.html?ref=asia