North Korea is walking away from Six Party talks

[Sacrilege]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Isolate them, no shipments out, no shipments in.

Hold them hostage until they allow inspections that can destroy everything permanently.

I advocated this the first time but Bush was a pussy.

isn't China NK's major trading partner? I can't imagine bombing their trucks would go over well.

That wasn't my suggestion either, we control all ways out, we don't need to bomb anything.

The USA controls the China, North Korea border crossing?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Skoorb
NK continues to play its adversaries quite well, but then again they are so fvcking bad at this it's not that hard, because they are predictable and useless. Something needs to change. The current way to deal with NK has been not just useless, but entirely counterproductive, as now it has nukes.

When Kim goes, somebody else will pop up. His dad's death didn't really help the country, did it?

He looks haggard. It's too bad he'll be unlikely to see with his eyes the fall of his regime, a pleasure that at least Saddam got to embrace.

The Clinton era agreed framework seemed to work pretty well. Basically the plan is to bide our time until the regime collapses on its own. Military action against NK is too costly for too little gain, ignoring them like Bush did was a terrible idea, and so that's about all we're left with.

We can fully expect NK to continue to behave badly, so the real question in my mind is how can we best limit the dumb shit they are going to do?

Aren't you worried about them passing nuclear and missile technology to Syria and Iran?

I am worried about that, yes. It just seems like the best of a series of bad options.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: eskimospy

The Clinton era agreed framework seemed to work pretty well. Basically the plan is to bide our time until the regime collapses on its own. Military action against NK is too costly for too little gain, ignoring them like Bush did was a terrible idea, and so that's about all we're left with.

We can fully expect NK to continue to behave badly, so the real question in my mind is how can we best limit the dumb shit they are going to do?

The framework agreed to under Clinton actually didn't work very well at all. Superficially it may have appeared so but under the surface it was a different story:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/in...orthkorea/nuclear.html

Even as the nations were debating implementation of the Agreed Framework, North Korea, the United States argued, was breaking the spirit, if not the letter, of the pact. Within months of signing the framework, North Korea and Pakistan reportedly cut a deal to trade missile technology for Pakistan's uranium enrichment techniques ? the Agreed Framework had banned plutonium enrichment programs.

For more than three years, the North Koreans worked quietly on their uranium project while urging the United States to fully implement the Agreed Framework. The Clinton administration apparently learned of the secret program in late 1998 or early 1999, and by March 2000, President Clinton informed Congress he could no longer certify that "North Korea is not seeking to develop or acquire the capability to enrich uranium."

Allegedly Clinton even knew of NK's work on the project, according to the WaPo in '98. He simply pretended that not to know so he didn't have to acknowledge that his (actually Jimmy Carter's) framework afreement was a failure.

I agree it wasn't perfect. There has arisen significant doubt on the existence or progress of North Korean uranium based weapons however. This isn't to say that they weren't likely trying to pull something shady, just that they didn't get very far with it. To sort of further underscore this idea, when the North Koreans detonated that bomb, it was a plutonium based one, not uranium... despite having years of extra time to work on uranium based weapons had they been doing that. I think it's safe to say that the Agreed Framework delayed North Korea's deployment of nuclear weapons.

That's what this is all about isn't it? I mean we all know that short of military strikes, etc, the best we're going to be able to get out of North Korea is to delay their actions that we don't like. Yes this sucks, but I think most reasonable people agree that attacking them is probably a bad idea. So, the Agreed Framework seems to provide a blueprint from which more effective agreements can perhaps be crafted to get North Korea to behave itself until Kim Jong Il dies, or whatever else. Like I said, the best of a series of bad options.

 

[Bitek]

I think its time to take this petulant child out of the naughty chair and bend him over for a spanking.

 

[Riceninja]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Isolate them, no shipments out, no shipments in.

Hold them hostage until they allow inspections that can destroy everything permanently.

I advocated this the first time but Bush was a pussy.

isn't China NK's major trading partner? I can't imagine bombing their trucks would go over well.

That wasn't my suggestion either, we control all ways out, we don't need to bomb anything.

This is news to China. Let's remind them.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Sacrilege

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Isolate them, no shipments out, no shipments in.

Hold them hostage until they allow inspections that can destroy everything permanently.

I advocated this the first time but Bush was a pussy.

isn't China NK's major trading partner? I can't imagine bombing their trucks would go over well.

That wasn't my suggestion either, we control all ways out, we don't need to bomb anything.

The USA controls the China, North Korea border crossing?

Christ you people are daft.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Riceninja

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Isolate them, no shipments out, no shipments in.

Hold them hostage until they allow inspections that can destroy everything permanently.

I advocated this the first time but Bush was a pussy.

isn't China NK's major trading partner? I can't imagine bombing their trucks would go over well.

That wasn't my suggestion either, we control all ways out, we don't need to bomb anything.

This is news to China. Let's remind them.

I give up... i just give the fuck up.

 

[Riceninja]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Sacrilege

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Isolate them, no shipments out, no shipments in.

Hold them hostage until they allow inspections that can destroy everything permanently.

I advocated this the first time but Bush was a pussy.

isn't China NK's major trading partner? I can't imagine bombing their trucks would go over well.

That wasn't my suggestion either, we control all ways out, we don't need to bomb anything.

The USA controls the China, North Korea border crossing?

Christ you people are daft.

No, please explain. I need to be briefed on how USA controls the China-NK border.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Riceninja

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Sacrilege

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Isolate them, no shipments out, no shipments in.

Hold them hostage until they allow inspections that can destroy everything permanently.

I advocated this the first time but Bush was a pussy.

isn't China NK's major trading partner? I can't imagine bombing their trucks would go over well.

That wasn't my suggestion either, we control all ways out, we don't need to bomb anything.

The USA controls the China, North Korea border crossing?

Christ you people are daft.

No, please explain. I need to be briefed on how USA controls the China-NK border.

Explain what? You SERIOUSLY can't figure it out?

There are three possible solutions considering the forces on the water and their range, that would be one, Chinas treaty with NK would be a second (They have promised NK not to get involved) and the rest of the border isn't a problem.

I REALLY can't tell you more, this is all common knowledge but if i have to go further, well i can't.

 

[Riceninja]

You stated that we control all the ways out. My reply was asking how we control the most important one - the China/NK border. As far as I know, the Chinese have only signed treaties promising not to interfere with NK internal problems. They are still feeding NK with supplies daily. I fail to see how we would be able to isolate them without cooperation from China, who have promised none aside from the six party talks.

I can't figure this out. Sorry.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: eskimospy

The Clinton era agreed framework seemed to work pretty well. Basically the plan is to bide our time until the regime collapses on its own. Military action against NK is too costly for too little gain, ignoring them like Bush did was a terrible idea, and so that's about all we're left with.

We can fully expect NK to continue to behave badly, so the real question in my mind is how can we best limit the dumb shit they are going to do?

The framework agreed to under Clinton actually didn't work very well at all. Superficially it may have appeared so but under the surface it was a different story:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/in...orthkorea/nuclear.html

Even as the nations were debating implementation of the Agreed Framework, North Korea, the United States argued, was breaking the spirit, if not the letter, of the pact. Within months of signing the framework, North Korea and Pakistan reportedly cut a deal to trade missile technology for Pakistan's uranium enrichment techniques ? the Agreed Framework had banned plutonium enrichment programs.

For more than three years, the North Koreans worked quietly on their uranium project while urging the United States to fully implement the Agreed Framework. The Clinton administration apparently learned of the secret program in late 1998 or early 1999, and by March 2000, President Clinton informed Congress he could no longer certify that "North Korea is not seeking to develop or acquire the capability to enrich uranium."

Allegedly Clinton even knew of NK's work on the project, according to the WaPo in '98. He simply pretended that not to know so he didn't have to acknowledge that his (actually Jimmy Carter's) framework afreement was a failure.

I agree it wasn't perfect. There has arisen significant doubt on the existence or progress of North Korean uranium based weapons however. This isn't to say that they weren't likely trying to pull something shady, just that they didn't get very far with it. To sort of further underscore this idea, when the North Koreans detonated that bomb, it was a plutonium based one, not uranium... despite having years of extra time to work on uranium based weapons had they been doing that. I think it's safe to say that the Agreed Framework delayed North Korea's deployment of nuclear weapons.

That's what this is all about isn't it? I mean we all know that short of military strikes, etc, the best we're going to be able to get out of North Korea is to delay their actions that we don't like. Yes this sucks, but I think most reasonable people agree that attacking them is probably a bad idea. So, the Agreed Framework seems to provide a blueprint from which more effective agreements can perhaps be crafted to get North Korea to behave itself until Kim Jong Il dies, or whatever else. Like I said, the best of a series of bad options.

I agree the answer doesn't reside in military action against NK. China would not take kindly to that at all. Besides that, NK is just not that important on the world stage. It's little more than an irritating political pimple on the World's ass and isn't worth our military's time.

However, I hate the old framework approach. Where NK is concerned, "framework" has become a euphemism for bribe. I can't stand the thought of dishing out another bribe to that megalomanical peckerhead.

 

[Dacalo]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
Give china advance notice, preemptive strike the NK artillery pointed a Soul and stop all rice shipments. NK collapses, give NK's aid money to SK (shortly to be just "Korea") to help incorporate NK back into the country.

For best results time with Kim's death or serious illness, and be prepared for massive humanitarian operation to save as many NK civilians from starvation as possible.

Not gonna happen. For one, China does not want a U.S. ally on it's border period. NK for them is like a "U.S. buffer zone." Another is Japan also does not want Korea to unify. NK has a lot of resources. SK's biggest weakness was lack of natural resources. Resources + SK's high-tech = another competition in the region for Japan.

NK artillery is very well hidden and there are thousands of them. This isn't Iraq. There is no way in hell enough of them can be destroyed before Seoul becomes "sea of fire" like NK likes to say.